Drug addicts in yeshiva

Are we talking nicotine or marijuana?

The legal aspect is important. It’s a different kind of defiance to buy an illegal substance. Also, the mind altering aspect is important, although in that regard, you could compare alcohol.

It’s hard to say that some of our biggest gedolim were “drug addicts”. The term has a much more negative connotation than the term “heavy smoker”.

If anything tobacco would be worse, as long term effects of marijuana are minimal at worst.

The mood and mind altering effects are different also, y’know.

Here come the liberal voices seeking to minimize and legalize tobacco and marijuana. Phooey!

The dangers of tobacco, including the addiction potential, were not realized fully many years ago. The only reason that it is improper to refer to the tzaddikim of yesteryear as addicted to nicotine is because their self-control was immensely powerful, and they would overcome their withdrawal symptoms by their strong dedication to fulfilling Torah and Mitzvos. The Chofetz Chaim ZT”L was vocal about his opposition to smoking, with direct reference to its addictiveness. All of the liberal voices that contaminate the CR with defenses of open violations of ??????? ??? ????????? have failed to refute the amassed scientific data about the dangers of smoking, even the limited amount of cigarettes.

Weed – here I come. I have investigated this issue for years, and I am familiar with the scientific studies that examine the dangers of THC. There is apparently minimal risk of withdrawal and physical dependency. There also appears to be more reverse tolerance than the straightforward kind which is common to most other drugs. However, its medical adversities are many, long term, and most irreversible. I am excluding medical marijuana from my discussion, as it is a subject of much debate, and is always judged by the professional to balance its need versus the risks. The popularization of the legalize pot movement is akin to the ??? ????. It is accepted, not for its altruistic value, but for its flexibility that allows for one to follow the desires for altered states of mind. And that is inconsistent with everything we know about Torah and Ratzon Hashem. If anyone wonders whether I am labeling any casual use of marijuana an aveiro, I’ll skip the suspense. Yes. It is of unquestionable departure from Avodas Hashem. No I do not represent any body that has a political bias, just some knowledge and experience. I would not pronounce tobacco or marijuana as being ranked in either direction for their dangers. The nature of the effects are different. Comparison and contrast are useless.

Vogue- that sounds like a really good idea. I’d go for it.

Personally, I see yeshiva bochurim smoking a lot. It is assur because smoking is sakanas nefesh, plain and simple.

We should be treating pot like vicodin

We do treat it precisely like vicodin. It is a controlled substance, and only allowed with a prescription. And you can only write a prescription for a use that the FDA determines has a medical benefit, and the FDA has determined that smoking weed has no medical benefit.

The THC however, does have medical benefit and you can get a prescription for pills that contain THC.

Vogue, I have a distant relative who smoked like a chimney, had diabetes, and refused to listen to doctors, who lived to 98.

PBA -“and the FDA has determined that smoking weed has no medical benefit.”

And it’s high time we started prosecuting and/or punishing the States that allow smoking weed. Not only should we prosecute the users, but the Gov. for passing a law against Federal law and Not enforcing Federal law.

yitz17:

While it the Chofetz Chaim that makes an issue of starting smoking as being an aveiro because of the dependency, most other poskim focus purely on the medical damage. I refer you to some of the seforim on smoking that address the subject of the single cigarette, quoting the Gedolei Haposkim who are unanimous in declaring the issue involved from even this “minimal” damage. To treat this lightly is irresponsible, and not consistent with halacha.

It is true that stopping smoking can often lead to enough healing of whatever body tissues have been affected. Counting on that as a heter to start is stupid. It is like cutting yourself just because the wound will eventually heal. So the notion of bochurim being allowed to take up smoking on the smach they will later quit is immature, medically foolish, and against halacha.

RebDoniel, any time you change a rule there will be a balooning effect right away. In order to really know how things work you have to study a place that had such laws in place for a while.

While smoking is not healthy and is irresponsible, the effect is long term and down the road. You can’t compare a smoker to someone taking illegal substances. As far as I know, BH Yeshivos do not have this problem.

Like everything else, who knows what the future holds and what a Mussar Shmuess will sound like a couple of years down the line. But sofar, it is not an issue and please don’t make believe it is. People take the word of fiction seriously, even while being aware that it is fiction.

Maybe, if your story would be about a Bachur hiding his regular nicotine sigarette, that would help implant the idea that it is not normal to smoke. Think like a journalist: how you can change the world with slight inferences and biases.

Drug culture, b’derech klall, is very verbotten in Yeshivas. Smoking and drinking are completely different stories. In some Yeshivas (especially in Eretz Yisroel), bachurim are peer pressured into smoking, some just the opposite.

There are several Yeshivas which are open to former drug addicts, but they are not made up exclusively of that crowd. There are also several Yeshivas/Rehab centers open for current drug users. The top guys from the latter type places end up in the former type of place.

Drug smuggling and subsequent abuse are also major problems in certain Yeshivas (again, mostly in Eretz Yisroel). In general the boys have no idea what drugs are or what is in the package that someone just paid them $1000 to deliver to Antwerp. It happens a lot more often than people like to admit, and often the predators who enlist these boys go unpunished if the boys aren’t caught by the Japanese police. It’s not unheard of for these boys to end up addicted themselves once they’ve become “experts” at smuggling.

It’s another thing paving this country down a road to the pits.

Divrei HaYamim Bet, Perek Zayin, pasuk yud daled: “If My people, upon whom My name is called, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their evil ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” (JPS)

JPS is a great translation; the English is elegant. Just like why I love the Singer siddur, and the music of Sulzer and Lewandowski.

“Does this sort of thing happen?:

Yes, although our communal leadership is either in massive denial, or in massive cover up mode. (Nothing worse for a yeshiva’s reputation than to have a drug bust.)

“I think it’s critical that we create a yeshiva with beis midrash for buchorim who are recovering drug addicts post rehab so they can get extra therapy while still being in a yeshiva. What do you think?”

Not only that, but a huge amount of Torah directly supports the 12 step recovery philosophy. Last Shabat I led an aggadata shiur on the narrative of Rabbi Shimon and the cave, pointing out the recovery lessons there, to a class of recovering addicts and their families. I would love to support such a yeshiva and if you can get anyone interested, please have them contact me so that I can lend my support publicly. (I’m easy to find as I use only my real name in my internet comments and don’t hide where I work and in what community I live.)

Charliehall.

You say “Yes, although our communal leadership is either in massive denial, or in massive cover up mode.”

Everyone judges a situation by circumstances they are familiar with. Therefore, It seems that you are most familiar with a specific community where there is a massive issue of drug use in “Yeshiva”.

While there is likely some drug use/abuse in almost any yeshiva, and the Roshei Yeshiva are aware of the possibility, the yeshivas I am familiar with would not condone such behavior nor would they allow to come to a situation where there is massive drug use!!!

I am thus agog to hear you say it is a massive issue and must surmise that since you are a teacher and have a PhD, it must be true in the circumstances you find yourself, yet not so in yeshivos that I am familiar with.

It is certainly a much more accepted practice among the leftward leaning crowd to use and abuse such substances recreationally. They somehow feel that dina dmalchusa does not apply to them.

I have a more basic question. With all the taxes cigarettes are expensive!! Where do bochurs get the money?

Those who smoke are also endangering the lives of those with whom they interact. Second hand smoke is a major inyan that is known to cause illness even in people who have never smoked- on a personal note, my great-grandfather got emphysema from second hand smoke. My bus driver smokes on the bus (though not while we’re driving), and when I smell that disgusting reek through the bus, I worry about what might happen.

Question to the OP: if you’re writing a book for teens wouldnt you need to be very familiar to their lifestyles? Doesnt seem like you do if you need to ask about the realistic level of your example? I mean no offense, just curious…

Maybe I’m out of it, but I just don’t know anyone who smokes pot. Unless people don’t want to tell me, which is certainly possible.

It’s that big cover up Charlie’s talking about.

In fact, you probably smoke pot yourself, you just cover it up so well that you don’t even realize it.

Less,

Where do “bochurs” (sic)get the money?

As far as I know, cigarettes are significantly cheaper than pot and and recreational drugs.

Cigarettes in the City appear to be about $12 a pack. (based on the signs by the news stands)(Which by the way is not more than a typical lunch). If I recall corrcetly from when I had the distinct displeasure of serving on a grand jury, pills and other drugs were much more than that.

Why do you not question where the students Charlie is familiar with get their money. Annecdotaly, I had heard that some get it by dealing, but that cannot be all.