driving to Shul on Shabbos?

I sometimes davened in a Shul, many years ago, where the police put signs reserving the spaces in front of the shul for the shul-goers. Of course, this was only on Shabbos.

Maybe they work in the shul. Maybe they are conservative and want to see what orthodox davening feels like. Maybe they are non-observant and they have to say kadish for a parent. Maybe they want to become frum and want a taste of Shabbos. You can’t tell them not to come and you can’t invite them to come. What they do on their own is out of your control.

Maybe there was a simcha and there were non frum relatives coming.

Maybe there was a fire and there were non frum firemen coming.

Maybe there was a good kiddush and I was coming. (doesn’t explain the cars.)

aries2756 wrote: “You can’t tell them not to come…”

According to the halacha one must rebuke someone for doing something wrong if what they are doing is an issur d’oraisa, (a prohibition by the torah) even if they know that the person may not listen to the rebuke. The fact that the transgressor may be trying to get a taste of shul or Judaism or beginning the tushuvah process is not a justifiable reason to ignore public chilul shabbos.

Of course one should carefully plan the method and wording of this rebuke so as to accomplish the most possible effect. If done correctly, with the correct amount of sensitivity and expression of love to all Jews, it will not only not “distance” the offender from Yidishkiet but may, if not immediately, maybe later on, actually have a positive effect.

May we be zoche to see all of our lost brethren returning to the ways of Hashem with shmiras Shabbos and keeping all the Mitzvos properly.

I remember when I was becoming dati at a Chabad house outside Boston the Rabbi said that it was a fairly common thing for families as they move to greater observance that driving to shul would be the last non shabbos thing that they would give up.

It kind of makes sense if you think about it, if you are a family out in the suburbs somewhere with nothing in walking distance and you decide to become religious you will need to move to be in walking distance of a shul, but of course moving house can not in most cases be done overnight, it takes time.

And just to be very clear the rabbi was talking about the case of a family transitioning from secular to shomer shabbos and being somewhere in the middle for a time, nothing else.

My parents belong to an orthodox shul, the Rabbi is a Chabbad guy and he wants the people to come to shul, does not want to turn them away if they are coming by car and gradually he mekarvs people so they don’t drive to shul anymore.

Maybe they are Hatzalah members and were coming back from calls?

Charlie,

They have a designated shul for all biology people?

Look, for certain people, driving to shule is a step forward. We had friends who lived far from the community, and they gradually became more interested in Shabbat and frumkeit. In the beginning, they drove in on Shabbat and left before Shabbat was over. With encouragement from us and others in the community, they eventually started coming for all of Shabbat. Eventually, they sold their house and moved into the community. They have continued their growth over the years; they themselves are now encouraging others to take the same steps themselves. So, perhaps those you see driving on Shabbat are making their way forward as well!

It is a beautiful thing to see someone move forward and take the necessary steps to become frum. It must be an amazing feeling to have someone sit next to you in shul and watch them grow from driving to shul on Shabbos to become a total Shomer Shabbos.

Chabad is virtually alone in that shitah…in fact they invite peopel over for shabbos knowing full well that they will drive on shabbos. most others think thats wrong. then again…thats not all chabad is wrong about.

“they invite peopel over for shabbos knowing full well that they will drive on shabbos. most others think thats wrong.”

My rav tells me that it is RIGHT. Our only obligation is to OFFER the chance to stay over. He is not Chabad and recently confirmed this with a well known posek.

I know many doctors who drive to shul on Shabbos.

“CharlieHall” commented on the comment of “One of the Chevra” by saying:

(one of the chevra said) According to the halacha one must rebuke someone for doing something wrong… “

(CharlieHall said) According to the halachah you are FORBIDDEN to rebuke someone if it will drive them away from yiddishkeit. Very few of us have the sensitivity to give a proper rebuke to a non-observant Jew.

ONE OF THE CHEVRA RESPONDS:

It’s obvious that you did not read my comment carefully.

I was originally referring to rebuking someone whom you know will not listen, not to someone who will be turned away from Yidishkeit.I AGREED with you that it must be done in a correct manner, and Later on I very clearly also referred to your issue when I wrote: “If done correctly, with the correct amount of sensitivity and expression of love to all Jews, it will not only not “distance” the offender from Yidishkiet but may, if not immediately, maybe later on, actually have a positive effect”.

Concerning the other comments about coming to shul with a car being a “step forward”: that can be compared to a person who was invited to attend a royal banquet in honor of the king and he comes driving right into the center of the ballroom and rams the head table with his car. “Well at least I came to the banquet this time, that’s a step forward” he says.

Sorry people!! Ramming the shabbos with your car especially when coming to the palace of the king (the shul) is NOT a step forward!

We do not do Hashem any favor by keeping His mitvos through transgressing chilul shabbos. Any and EVERY competent rov would surely say: If you live to far from the shul to walk STAY HOME!! and guess what you will be rewarded greatly from Hashem for staying home
May we all be zoche to be mekarev as many yidden back to Hashem as possible with love and sensitivity, but most important of all, in the way which Hashem and the Torah guide us to, and not by the guidelines of our own “feelings”.

Keen,

Many of the doctors I know got heterim way back when (so older doctors). I don’t know the details – I know they drive to and from the hospital to shul to daven and then go back if they can.

I am not a posek. I don’t know if there is a reason for the change nowadays (it seems like younger doctors don’t do this). I am just saying that don’t judge someone as being mechalel shabbos because you see them driving.

I belong to an MO shul, while there are some that drive. They are not MO, they simply belong to an MO shul. The parking lot is also closed on shabbos, so if you driver and park their on Friday you are stuck till after shabbos. The question is why do non-orthodox people decided to go to an Ortho shul and should they be welcomed?

they should be told not to come to shul, rather than not saying anything and them being mechallel shabbos to come to shul on shabbos.

shlishi…you want to be the one to tell someone who’s parents survived the horrors of the holocaust and raised their children in a secular matter that they are not welcomed in a Jewish Institution like a shul, when they have no understanding of halacha?

Back when I was younger, many people from my parent’s generation (those who grew up in the 1930s & 40s) drove to our shule on Shabbat. They were not orthodox, but grew up in orthodox neighborhoods and would not think of ever going into a conservative or reform synagogue. It’s just the way they were.

shlishi, the ONLY one with the obligation to tell such a Jew NOT to come to shul would be the RAV and if the RAV does not take upon himself to deliver such a message who are YOU to make such a comment?????????

Obviously it is NOT appropriate to do so!!!!! So maybe the RAV knows better than YOU.

While a posek should be consulted on this matter, my personal understanding and thoughts, based on what I have heard from prominent reliable people is that a shul and even a yachid cannot put someone in a situation where the person will either likely or definitely, (I cannot recall which, now) drive on Shabbos. More precisely, when dealing with someone who you know would drive on Shabbos, there has to be a practical and plausible alternative before you can invite him to your shul/home etc. on Shabbos.

Furthermore, to keep a shul parking lot open past the start of Shabbos, in a case where people will likely use it, seems irresponsible and a chilul Hashem. If they want to drive, they’ll find a way without you opening a parking lot for them as long as you do so with love and sincerity, not holier-than-thou nonsense.

A conservative Jew once mentioned to me in conversation that he lives too far from shul so he drives because how could he not pray to G-d on Shabbos just because he lives too far away? I was so thrown by this line of thinking that I regret I didn’t have an answer for him at the time that would not be CH”V embarrassing or offensive but still convey the fallacy of this argument.

The obvious flaw in that argument is that it is forbidden to drive on Shabbos. Prayer, however, can be done at home, too, even if this is not as preferable as praying in the synagogue. But, again, driving is absolutely forbidden barring pikuach nefesh et al reasons, so there is no justification for ASSISTING someone in doing so, CH”V. If someone parks around the corner then that’s his business, so to speak, but that doesn’t mean you leave the parking lot open to welcome the behavior, CH”V.

As with any mitzvah, the ends do NOT justify the means, and the future potential shemiras mitzvos is wonderful, but you can’t help him be mechalel shabbos to attain that wonderful goal. Let Hashem take care of His children while you work with them only within the framework of His Torah. Hashem is looking out for all His children and obviously does not want nor need you to assist in Chilul Shabbos.

Opening up a parking lot for Shabbos is clearly a problem, but its not clear to me that failing to block the entrance to a parking lot Friday afternoon is encouraging chilul Shabbos. Obviously a rav should (and probably has, in the case of this shul) be consulted.

As a BT, I have personal experience with the issues discussed in this thread.

I grew up as an “active” Conservative, meaning we went to synagogue on a fairly regular basis. After I got married, we began to explore Judaism more and became more religious. At first, our growth was largely within the Conservative framework, as that is what I was raised with. I always had an attraction to Orthodox Judaism, but felt intimidated by it. In the town that we lived in at the time, there was a Conservative synagogue and a Chabad shul. Both were a considerable distance from where we lived (like 10-15 miles). We visited both, but started going more regularly to the Conservative one. Then I started wearing a yarmulke full time. Once, when driving home from the Conservative synagogue, I started to squirm in my seat. My wife asked me what was the matter. I said, “I feel like I need to take off my yarmulke.” She asked, “because we’re driving?” I said yes. We discussed the feelings, and decided that if we felt uncomfortable doing something while “looking Jewish”, then we must be doing something wrong. Starting the next Shabbos, we no longer drove.

I learned how to daven with an Orthodox siddur, and davened at home by myself on Shabbos. We lived like that for three years before B”H we were able to move into a frum community. Being able to go to shul is definitely better than davening alone, but once we began to understand what Shabbos was, to violate it by driving was not an option. I feel like I have a deep appreciation for shul now after those three years at home. I have no temptation whatsoever to talk during davening, and I tremble if given an aliyah.

Looking back, if I were directly rebuked for driving in an Orthodox setting when I still did so, it might have increased my fear of Orthodoxy and delayed our introduction into it. At the same time, someone who drives on Shabbos does not truly understand Shabbos. So instead of a direct rebuke, perhaps something more subtle would work better. Be very friendly. Be welcoming. And have an option ready for the person driving to be able to stay Shabbos in the community. And push it (cheerfully). Push how meaningful it would be, how honored you would be to have the person as a guest, etc. And act disappointed if turned down. I think that method would get the importance across without an unwelcoming stiff-arm.