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Drinking is a way for those who don’t experience Simchas HaTorah to pretend they do.
Thanks for the clarification bygirl. In that case, I agree with you 100% (even though I, personally, don’t drink).
The Wolf
Yes, mesira solves everything.
It’s already well established that “mesira” is allowed in cases of child abuse.
The question then boils down to whether or not allowing your minor child to get drunk qualifies as abuse. Cantoresq clearly believes is does.
The Wolf
The problem is, by the time cantoresq calls ACS, the kid will be sober. Must be the mitzvah of mesira is doche yom Tov…
cherrybim, MOSHAV!!!! yeah
Drinking, drinking and drinking, in my community it has become a major problem amongst the youth, so what do you say to this. The rabbi gave a whole speach on Rosh Hasahana, the drinking amongst the youth has increase. It is very dangerous and harmful I am against drinking all the time. even in Purim I do not like what I see young yeshiva boys, ten or twelve year olds drunk even fourteen and fifteen year old bachurim . Are we normal?
I am against drinking all the time. even in Purim
At the risk of hearing “how dare you be m’vatel a Mitzvah??” from some people, I agree with this too. Public drunkenness, even on Purim, is not something to be proud of or celebrate.
But then again, what do I know? I’ve never been drunk in my life.
The Wolf
Good for you Wolf you never got drunk in your life, you probably gave yourself another ten years to live, my brother in law is a kidney and liver transplant surgeon , you have no idea how people loose their livers to liquer. He hates alcohol for that reason.
Here where I live the parents give kids alcohol and they encourage drinking. Believe it or not!
Wolf: There is another simple way to be mekayaim the mitzva of “ad d’lo yoda” without alcohol, which was suggested by my halacha teacher when I was in school, and that is to take a nap on the day of Purim.
No being m’vatel a Mitzvah, no alcohol, no problem!
NY Mom,
I know, I know.
On Purim, I never have time to take a nap, so I’m out of luck there – I’m usually far too busy. But even so, I’m *still* not going to get drunk.
The Wolf
Mesira is like eating on Yom Kippur- in some circumstances it’s the biggest mitzvah. In most is the biggest aveirah. If it’s mesira, halacha allows you to kill a moseir, even today. If it’s a mitzvah, then chazak ubaruch. This is why you need a LOR.
Wolf: Uh, does sleeping through the night count? Or into the morning hours? Morning is part of the day, you know! (I’m trying for ya’ here 😉
NY Mom,
I don’t think that counts… otherwise, no one would ever say it’s a mitzvah to get drunk (unless they just want to get drunk anyway).
The Wolf
If it’s mesira, halacha allows you to kill a moseir, even today.
Try explaining THAT to the jury…. 🙂
The Wolf
I’m not going into the debate whether you should drink Purim or S.T. or any other time. But what I would like to say is this, if someone does abuse their alcohol, they should get medical help right away. If the person can’t be woken up by yelling, try pinching shoulder or ear, rubbing chest bone (sternum), or touching eyeball. If there still is no response -call EMS and check breathing & circulation. Make sure they are transported to the ER. No medical personnel on the scene should release an alcoholic patient that definitely was unconscious -they must be transported. I’ve once heard a story that frum medical personnel didn’t transport or held off transporting such a case due to possible chillul Hashem. Be frum on your own cheshbon, not on somebody elses’, especially since this could be a matter of life and death!
The drinking in my local yeshiva was much toned down this year, Baruch Hashem. There were less bochurim who were “tofe’ach al menas lehatfiach” when you touched their shirts and reeked like Bowery bums.
The fact that people don’t duchen at Mussaf on Simchas Torah is a din in not duchening at the time of Mincha because it is the time of day when people normally drink. This is a din every day of the year, not just on Simchas Torah. At the Netz minyan that I davened at, they actually did Birchas Kohanim at Mussaf because it was still well before mincha gedola and there had not been a kiddush yet. Most other minyanim don’t get to mussaf until after mincha gedola so tehreforee cannot duchen then. This is in no way a ra’aya that there is a mitzvah/minhag to drink on Simchas Torah more than any other Yom Tov. It is merely the fact that kiddush is made on wine as on any othe rShabbos or Yom TOv and therefore a kohain may not be fit to duchen at that time
Purim there is a chiyuv of “ad d’loy yodah” therefore we drink & many get drunk,
but getting drunk on Simchas Torah is not only Not a mitvah,
it is the opposite of Kavod Hatorah, C”V!
If you are bitter & need to intoxicate yourself with alcohol to feel what you think is called “happy” better stay home than come to shul & throw up all over the place.
(I am not referring to casual drinking which I and many responsible adults do)
Those who enjoy the taste of fine wines & bourbons, a high quality beer etc..
A Shikkur is one who seeks the, “high”, “buzz”, “ad dloy yoda”, “crunk”,
all the time, as an escape to the real world, their personality,
or rather lack thereof. I wish all the aforementioned, A Refuah Shleima!
my simchas torah was great and i didn’t touch any alcohol
BTW, we had a very beautiful Simchas Torah in my Yeshiva with very little drinking. I don’t think anyone drank at night and during the day a few people came in a bit high but nothing serious. I thought it was a great Kiddush Hashem.
Mod-42 Im quite sure that after after the mishneh berura we dont need your ray’os ! The mishneh berura explicitly states that the reason we don’t dichun is because ppl were drunk on simchas torah ! Now i do see a difference from one person to the next some ppl definitely have no shaychos to simchas hatorah when they drink but those that feel that it allows them to adequately express their simchas hatorah should feel comfortable doing so .
I had a wonderful Simchas Torah drinking lots of water to keep me hydrated. I was dancing long after those in a drunken stupor were busy barfing all over the shul lobby, creating a terrible mess and stench.
I dont have a Mishna Berurah in front of me. Can someone check what the MB really says? Does he say “because people are drunk” or because they can not duchan because they drank wine. A reviis of wine would passul a kohen from duchaning. One is not drunk from a reviis of wine.
To the RoshYeshivah: It’s true that people got drunk 100 years ago. And if you read the bio of Rav Schwadron you can see just how chashuve some of the people who got buzzed were. The problem is, and this is true of Purim too, is that kids and others drink with no role models of how it should be done appropriately (and it’s up for debate if Simchas Torah is the appropriate time other than a reviis of wine lekavod yom tov).
Don’t forget that up to 100 years ago wine or beer was the safe thing to drink. Drinking water could cause all sorts of nasty things like say Cholera, clean safe drinking water is something that we take for grated in 2009 but in say 1850 it was anything but.
I think that there’s no reason why a responsible adult can’t make a few L’chayims on Simchas Torah. For many years, Yidden have been doing so. Most people don’t drink on S”T as much as on Purim. They make a few L’chayims & dance Hakafos with a little more Geshmak.
TO WannaBe roshyashiva
with all do respect to ur screen name, JPHONE is correct!!!
the m.b. does say “mishum dishchichy shichrus ” . [meaning the din of shikrus] this is simple to understand being that the shulchan aruch says [128;38]that even ONE reviis of [undiluted] wine, disqualifies a kohein from nesias kapayim.
I was witness to a terrible chillul hashem in shul on Simchas Torah. A few men were drunk beyond comprehension of time/space and started shouting ridiculous comments! The whole shul was embarrassed for these men and their wives. one at least was not married because his also drunk friend shouted that he was a bachelor and everyone should set up their daughters with him. I for one would not let any children near people who risk their lives and ruin kavod Torah for an alcoholic high. no way should anyone be willing to be set up with someone who drinks like that…
I received the following via email.
Simchas Torah or just simcha
If on any given Shabbos or Chag (or Monday/Thursday) someone would drink to excess prior to the Torah reading, would we allow them to handle the Torah or receive an aliyah? Would we allow them to heckle the person who received an aliyah? Why do we allow it on Simchas Torah?
If a person showed up at the Siyum HaShas in Madison Square Garden and downed half a bottle(or more) of scotch and behaved in an inappropriate manner would he be allowed to stay in or would security escort him out? Why do we allow it on the the Siyum of the Torah SheBichsav
Just like some Bar Mitzvah celebrations have more emphasis on the bar and less on the Mitzvah it appears that Simchas Torah is becoming more emphasis on the simcha and less on the Torah.
These last two stories are hard to believe, but if they are true- a bunch of people should go to the Rov and figure out what Takonos to make to prevent this from happening again. And these rules should apply not just on Purim or Simchas Torah, but anytime there would be drinking in Shul, eg. a Kiddush. Just a fuuny story -a few years ago- at the end of Simchas Torah, I was talking to a teenager I know. His drunk friend mixed in and we started exchanging words and then I called him a girl. Apparently, this was more than he could tolerate and he tried to hit me. I grabbed him and we both went flying into the door- I ended up with my hands around his neck. Then half the shul broke it up. Afterwards, he was putting his head down on a shtender. He must have had a whopping hangover the next day. We didn’t need to make any Takonos, because even if people in our shul get high or drunk, no one ever dared act differently than anyone else. This teenage drunk just showed up at the end of Yom Tov, neither him or his father daven by us. I guess in his drunken stupor he lost his way home and decided to pay us a visit.
This year I davened in a beautiful shul with lots of simcha. If there was any drinking, I didn’t see it.
Last year, the drinking got so out of hand that, with the Rav’s permission, I took all the alcohol I could find and poured it down the sink. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to find all the hiding places, but I was able to get rid of a lot of it.
Since when is it your job? Isn’t there the Rov, President, Gabboyim? How come you were the only one who cared?
re-read the post. It clearly says with the Rav’s permission. YW Moderator
To mod,
Why don’t you re-read my post- especially the last line.
apparently the Rav cared enough when he gave permission to spill out the hootch. case closed!
FWIW,
In my shul we have no alcohol the night of simchas Torah.
By day there was some wine and hard liquor available – but not a lot. However, no one was drunk (or even buzzed). Nor did any of the kids drink.
I like my shul.
The Wolf
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