Drinking On Purim

It is quite clear that those who think that Purim is a license to get smashed will find every excuse to do so and call it a mitzvah. Those who have a little more seichel, will understand that this is total rationalization and call a spade a spade.

It seems to me that this disscussion has moved from the realm of Halacha andMesorah in other words understanding the expicitGemorah which says one must get “plastered” on Purim to the era of feelings based upon the culture around us.

Being that I have always been taught that strictly orthodox Jews are prohibited from allowing feeling to dictate thier analysis of Halacha there is no way I can really find a place for these feelings within normative Halachic Judaism.

Ben Levi –

In regards your kiddush vs. purim argument every state has different rules about the amount of alcohol a parent can give their child and in what setting. for example – in New York a person under 21 may consume alcohol in their own home, with their parents consent. They can also consume in a licensed restaurant, with a meal, if the parent actually pours the drink. (Mere ‘consent’ is not enough)

It is also illegal, in NY, for a minor to have a BAC above 0.02% at any time. So while it’s legal for a parent to serve their child wine with a meal, for example, they must restrict the amount to ensure they remain under the 0.02% limit.

Most states have very similiar rules in this regard. So it makes sense a person under 21 can make kiddush at home but not get drunk on Purim.

I would like to know exactly who (besides teenage yeshiva bachurim) understands that the gemara means one should get so plastered on purim that they are puking their guts out and are a danger to themselves and all around them.

Ben Levi. Mod-80. Joseph. Anyone?

just asking those who seem to be “into” the discussion.

I just read this in a Jewish publication. It is quite eye-opening:

“Rosh Yeshiva slams heavy Purim drinking

In News on February 17, 2010 at 6:17 pm

By Sammy Steiner

Issue of February 19, 2010/ 6 Adar 5770

Lazer Rosman, a founding member of Hatzalah in Borough Park, spoke out against making light of excessive drinking; something people do, he said, because they do not see the repercussions.

One local mental health authority was less enthused about drinking to excess.

Four years ago, Salamon said, he visited a 17 year-old child who was in the hospital after suffering a stroke triggered by alcohol abuse.

Rabbi Yakov Horowitz, executive director of Project Y.E.S. and the organizer of the conference call, told the Jewish Star that drinking on Purim could have its own set of unintended consequences.

The custodian was surprised.

?

Joseph, the mishna brurah clearly states that one who gets drunk to the point of missing tefillos, bentching and krias shema is NOT fulfilling a mitzvah. Furthermore, one who makes a chillul Hashem by drinking is not fulfilling a mitzvah. Are you arguing on those points?

Again, those arguing for getting drunk. Is there a shitta anywhere that states the shiur of drunkeness is to the point of puking your guts out and you become a danger to yourself and all around you.

Talmid Lo Chacham: to your last statement I will heartily agree.

If one learns through the sugya and comes out they are not supposed to drink and they have no mesora otherwise then they must follow the way they learn.

It is the statements from those who don’t even know what mesechta the sugya is found in that have no place in the discussion.

Bshas Hadchak has exceptions.

Chazal have spoken against drunkenness in multiple places. They DID think it was a bad thing. Purim is a chiddush, and ein lach bo ela chiddusho.

I enjoy some wonderful grey goose, laugh at my “Read eicha on Purim” teetotaling friends, bentch and daven maariv with a minyan. I also limit my drinking the night before so I can daven with a minyan the next day and focus on megilla reading.

Jothar, which halacha says you should drink the night before????

Aries, the ikker mitzvah is the day, but we drink the night before due to the chumra of the Ohr Zarua 🙂

lets bear in mind that the tragedy that almost took place instead of the miracle on purim, began because of basically a drinking party. we have to be careful with our alcohol consumption. alcohol has a tremendous power. we all know, nichnas yayin yatzah sod. however if a person gets too drunk, the effect is muddled. a person who is “high” has a great power to improve hgimself on purim. it lowers your inhibitions, which not only makes us do stupid things at times, but also gives us the ability to get past our own inhibitions in terms of teshuva. it gives us the opportunity to look past our inflated egos, and look within ourselves and see that we really need to change and it allows us to truly make a powerful kabala al ha’asid. it gives us the ability to feel a true charata for things we may have done, which is why yom kippur is only “k’purim” we dont have that aid on yom kippur, we dont have this loosening of our inhibitions, we dont have the ease that we do on purim to do a real teshuva. but if you overdo it, of you drink yourslef totally drunk, if you drink yourself sick, if you drink yourself to the point where you have absolutely no control over any of your actions, you lose that positive benefit that the alcohol gives us. hashem gave us a tremendous opportunity to improve ourselves on purim, who are we to throw it in his face???

hudyrox, correct. No difference. The psak of ad delo yada doesn’t mean literal “shichruso shel lot” according to the mishna brurah, the poseik of the yeshivish world. It means drinking a bit more than usual and napping.

What about the obligation to obey the just laws of the state and country which we live in? Is that a factor?

From my post in the “minors and alcohol” thread:

I went through the poskim in order, with all of the major poskim covered- no cherry-picking or selective quoting. Feel free to double-check.

Let’s start off with the Tur, Orach Chaim 695.

1. The Beis Yosef (aka the mechaber in Orach chaim and the Mishna Brurah) quotes the Ran and Rabbeinu Ephraim- idchi ley maamar derava based on story of Rava and Rav Zeira. In other words, chayav inish is NOT lehalacha.

2. He then quotes the Orchos Chaim- levsuem IS kehalacha, but it doesn’t mean rolling on the floor drunk in your own vomit. To quote the lashon hakodesh,

????? ????? ????, ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????, ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???

“drunkenness is completely prohibited, and you do not find a bigger aveirah than it, as it causes illicit relations, murder, and many other sins besides. however one should drink a bit more than he is used to”. (translation mine)

3. On another point, the Beis Yosef says that there is no mitzvah to drink at night because it says YEMEI mishteh vesimcha- the DAYS of drinking and happiness.

4. The Bach says punkt fakehrt of how you quoted it. He does start off saying what you said, but lehalacha says like Rabbeinu Ephraim and the Ran- idchi ley. However, one should drink enough to be happy, and one should still have one’s wits about him (“daato alav”) even if he can’t stand in front of a king. This is NOT rolling on the floor in the vomit drunk. Furthermore, even THIS level is lemitzvah velo le’ikuva.

5. The maharsha in Bava metzia 21 agrees with this, and says a tzurva meirabanan (A real talmid chochom) is allowed to claim he reached a level of ad delo yada on Purim even though he was yada. Clearly no issur in remaining sober according the the Maharsha.

Now we move on to the Shulchan Aruch.

6. The Taz says a deep vort about how elevated arur haman is, but Baruch mordechai is even more sublime. you drink until you can’t comprehend this fine difference. This isn’t ROFIV (rolling on the floor in vomit) drunk either.The Taz explains the Rema like his shver the Bach- ein laasos kein- it’s assur to take the gemara literally as idchi ley like the Ran- we don’t pasken that way.

7. The Mogen Avraham says that Ad delo Yada means you can’t calculate gematrios of arur haman and baruch mordechai. Not ROFIV drunk either.

8. The Pri Megadim in the Mishbitzos Zahav approves of the Taz, and quotes the Pri chadash who agrees with this that “ein laasos kein” and says “vechein raui linhog”. See later for more on the exact wording of the Pri Chadash.

9. the Yad Ephraim says that one should drink to be happy, but not beyond that.

10. To be fair and honest, the Shaarei Teshuva quotes the Amudei Shomayim that his father used to be mekayeim the words kepshuto when he was younger. However, one shouldn’t do so if it leads to devarim shelo kehogen.

11. The Pri Chadash (the one quoted by the Pri Megadim in the mishbitzos) argues on Rabbeinu Ephraim whop said idchi ley, and holds that ad delo yada kepshuto is technically how we pasken. So theoretically one is doing a mitzvah by doing ROFIV. HOWEVER, now that the doros are mukulkalim (his words, not mine- since the generations are ruined, one SHOULDN’T drink so much, and by not drinking so much he’ll see blessing from heaven since he’s doing so lishmah. So he argues THEORETICALLY on the Ran and Rabbeinu Ephraim, but agrees PRACTICALLY.

12. Someone in the back of the Friedman edition Shulchan Aruch asks on the Rema why he wrote it the way he did, if it’s based on Rabbeinu Ephraim, and one SHOULDN’T drink that much. Regardless, the mishna brurah paskens like the Pri Megadim who paskens like the Pri chadash that one shouldn’t drink so much.

13. The Sefas Emes quoted by Volvie is on Megilla 7b, according to the Piskei teshuvos. I read it as saying one doesn’t need to get to ROFIV. The Piskei Teshuvos reads him as saying that one SHOULDN’T, just like the Yad Ephraim.

14. I did not look up the Chacham Tzvi.

15. As for the Shlah, I looked at the Kitzur Hashlah and he mostly rips the drinking going on as being sechok vehollelus instead of simcha shel mitzvah, and that people think the Torah doesn’t apply over Purim, and this is an “avon pelili-” a tremendous sin.

Bottom line- the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of mainstream poskim hold that one shouldn’t drink himself to ROFIV. The Pri chadash, who is halacha according to the Pri Megadim and Mishna Brurah, says that with the destruction of the generations, ad delo yada is like the mitzvah of yibum, NO LONGER APPLICABLE.

It is an AVEIRAH, according to many poskim (Ran, Rabbeinu Ephraim, Beis Yosef, Bach, Pri chadash, Pri Megadim, Mishna Brurah, Yad Ephraim, Shla”h), to drink to the point of shichruso shel lot. And NOBODY holds the Torah becomes hefker.

It is an AVEIRAH to give alcohol to any minor, even forgetting about dina demalchusa, as you would be causing them to violate the words of the poskim.

annie: No.

Women are obligated to hear the Megillah and to rejoice and partake in the Seuda on Purim, for they were part of the neis. As far as ad d’loi yoda, however, the Rivevois Ephraim (Vol.1 Ch.161) and others rule that it is inappropriate for women to become intoxicated.

Indeed the Mishna Brura (OC 199:6, in Sha’ar HaTzion), in the laws of birkas hamazon, explains that the reason women are not obligated to make a mezuman is that a mezuman should ideally be performed on a cup of wine and it is unseemly for a woman to do this.