drinking on purim, teaching kids?

first of all- i do apologize, i do not remember the source. i just remember this idea being ingrained in us in high school.

2)i did say it was not halacha, i was just trying to show that we do change things because of yeridas hadoros. you must have missed that part.

3)no i cannot think of one right now. give me time.

4)ok- i hear that they do not say its because things changed. i was just saying that in this case with getting drunk, i can hear it making sense that it could be a possibility. And i was not calling the sefarim or chazal backwards chas v’shalom! i was calling the ppl who misinterpret it backwards. in fact, my father just read to me straight out of the kitzur shulchan aruch, siman 142, s’if 6 that one should get drunk to the point where he does not know the difference between arur haman and baruch mordechai. BUT, it explicitly points out that if this will cause a person to compromise on his doing the mitzvos hayom and it will compromise on his tefilla or brachos… and it will cause him to act with frivolity… one should NOT drink the wine. it says (a little before that) that if a person cannot drink enough to confuse them of the difference between arur haman and baruch mordechai, he should at least drink a little more than he is used to, and then go to sleep, b/c while sleeping, he also does not know the difference.

and also, to reiterate what i said before, about my father and his rov not getting drunk- the rov actually has a rule in his shul against getting drunk, and he actually throws ppl out of the shul if they come in drunk.

and with that, i am going to bed. i am so tired and i, of course, as well as most other ppl 🙂 have quite a busy week. we will have to continue this conversation another time. gnite all!

fedup11210:

“it does not say that you should get drunk until you know nothing. It says that you should drink “ad dlo yadha bein arur haman and boruch mordechai!”

You’re right. I meant to right “practically nothing”, as I think it’s fair to assume that one who doesn’t know the difference between boruch Mordechai and arur Haman doesn’t know too much else either.

yummy cupcake:

“it is so backward to think that chazal would want us to make ourselves sick and throw up and act so disgusting. i can’t stand when i see ppl like that on purim”

Why do you consider this “backwards” and “disgusting”? Why can’t you stand seeing people like that? I would assume that the reason (and the reason for much of the opposition to drinking on Purim in general) is rooted almost entirely in modern Western culture that looks down upon drinking. But to judge a halacha as “backwards” and “disgusting” based upon outside values is absolutely wrong. Remember, today’s culture considers our approach to mishkav zachor to be “backwards” and “disgusting”, too… But does that mean we should change our views on the subject?!

“and just as a side point- which really is not really a side point, but also very important- it is SUCH a chillul Hashem! what do you think goes though the minds of other ppl when they see drunken jews throwing up on every block?”

Again, what do you think passes through the minds of the Goyim when they hear that we think mishkav zachor should be punishable by death? I doubt its very positive. Does that mean that make the issur of mishkav zachor a chillul Hashem?

“does it make sense that that is what Hashem wants from us?”

Does Hashem want us to follow the Halacha?

Does the Halacha say to drink?

I believe the answer to both of these questions is yes. And therefore, it is most certainly the ratzon Hashem that we drink on Purim. You may not understand it, you may not like it, but I don’t see how you can deny it.

Sam2:

“The Kanoi Next Door: So it’s a Kula to not get drunk?”

Some hold you must get drunk on Purim, others hold you do not have to. Sounds like a kulah to me.

Wolf:

“Sorry, I’ve got too much to do on Purim to get drunk.”

Are you too busy to listen to the Megilah? Or give shalach manos?

yummy cupcake:

“you should just be aware that there is drunk as in ranging from being a little high to being mildly drunk, then there is drunk as in more than mildly drunk to being grossly throwing up drunk. the first type i am ok with. the second type i am not.”

Again, what you do or do not like to see has little bearing on what the halacha is.

“and i don’t think that the rishonim/acharonim would be ok with it either if they saw to what degree many ppl do it.”

Why do you assume that? The simplest reading of Gemora, Rambam, Rosh, Tor and Shulchan Oruch all seem to say that one must drink until you are very, very drunk.

As Wolf said:

“Its a mitzvah to be as drunk as possible on Purim.

Completely and utterly false.

Even if you subscribe to the opinion that one should get drunk on Purim, it’s only to the point of ad d’lo yada.

There is no mitzvah to keep drinking to the point of getting physically sick or being unable to stand or perform any of the other mitzvos that need to be performed (such as davening Ma’ariv, for example).

I am proud of the fact that I have never been drunk in my life — and that includes Purim.

The Wolf”

I only repeat and quote this. I completely stand behind this and fully agree with it. Also never been drunk in my life, and never intending to be.

PBA: You think Chazal and the Mechaber intended for us to do something that is K’ilu being Oved Avodah Zarah?

the kanoi next door: you and popa seem to be misunderstanding me. I DID NOT SAY THAT CHAZAL IS BACKWARDS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. the people who interpret chazal incorrectly so they have an excuse to get sickly drunk ARE BACKWARDS. does that explain it better? look, say you were spiritually lost and looking for the truth. you chance upon a city/area on purim day only to find at least 5 jews on every block throwing up on their porches. would you stop and say “oh how beautiful- wish i could be one of them!” i think not.

mishkav zachor is a totally different issue. it is a beautiful diamond of a mitzvah that the goyim have ruined and dirtied. so they look down upon because they don’t know what the true and spiritual beauty of it is. it’s sad. i know. but it can’t compare to drinking because there is nothing spiritually beautiful about throwing up all over the place and acting out of control and not b’taam hatorah. no matter how you look at it, THAT IS NOT TRUE BEAUTY. TO ANYONE. i will say again, getting a little drunk is fine- as long as it is still within the parameters of acting like a good frum yid. but once it goes beyond that, it takes the beauty out of the mitzvah. that should have answered all of your questions above. yes the mitzvah is to drink. but give me one source where it says “yidden should drink so much that they are sick to the stomach, start throwing up all over the place, and acting out of control and very inappropriately…” find me one source. that’s all i ask. then we’ll talk.

Yummy, Wolf, and Chasiddishe Gatesheader: I agree with you guys totally!!!! Good for you. Keep it up. Stand up for what’s right!!!

Yummy – I’m proud of you 😉

yummy: No, it isn’t really better. You cannot sit and say that people who interpret the shulchan aruch and other poskim who say to get totally drunk are backwards. You are simply incorrect–it is exactly what they meant.

And it is not relevant what the kitzur shulchan aruch says, because I am not trying to convince you that we paskin to get drunk–just that it is a completely valid opinion in the poskim.

I am aware of the poskim who say to not get drunk. And you could also sit down and read poskim who say you should get drunk.

You cannot sit and choose between poskim and call some “backwards”. The shulchan aruch interpreted chazal to mean that we should get drunk. He was not backwards. You can ask your rav how he paskins, but you cannot call the other opinion backwards. That is not legitimate.

stuck -“Ad Dlo Yoda is a very high point of intoxication.”

This is something you made up, but has no basis to it. I have no opinion in the argument here. But I do think that it’s disgusting to throw up in public. That said – I do get drunk or high every year. I remember many moons ago when I was in high school a Rebbe told us, esp. since kids tend to over drink, that you aren’t a Mentch if you don’t carry a plastic bag with you on Purim. His words still ring true today.

As a matter of fact -it can’t be Ad Dlo Yoda is very high because at a certain point drinking becomes a Sakana. Chazal would never make a Chiyuv that comes close to a Sakana!

You want to get drunk -fine – I do. But you want to drink and act like a Behaima & vomit all over the place & blame the Halacha -this doesn’t wash. Yes, when I was a kid there where a few of these -nowadays it seems there are a lot more. Maybe because the Frum community has grown by leaps and bounds – so it seems more.

YC is right and you need to apologize.

PBA: I don’t know what R’ Yisroel held by Davening drunk. All you have is a story. We don’t Pasken from stories, and certainly not from second- (or fifth-) hand accounts. The only major Posek I have seen explicitly Mattir Davening drunk on Purim is Rav Kook.

popa: i’m still waiting for you to quote where in shulchan aruch it writes that you should get so drunk that you should get sick to your stomach and throw up, compromise on the other mitzvos, act out of control and inappropriately, and cause chillul Hashem.

and why do you keep misinterpreting what i say? to get drunk is ok. go dance in the streets, show ur simcha… but what i describe above, is disgusting.

popa: i’m still waiting for you to quote where in shulchan aruch it writes that you should get so drunk that you should get sick to your stomach and throw up, compromise on the other mitzvos, act out of control and inappropriately, and cause chillul Hashem.

It says ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????. Hardly ambiguous.

You can see that it is literal, since the rema disagrees and says one does not need to get that drunk, but rather need only get drunk the way you suggest.

and why do you keep misinterpreting what i say? to get drunk is ok. go dance in the streets, show ur simcha… but what i describe above, is disgusting.

I’m not misinterpreting. I am saying that many poskim and the shulchan aruch say to get drunk in the manner which is disgusting. That is, throwing up, completely oblivious to reality, etc.

maybe i’m missing it. you quoted to me what my father read to me from shulchan aruch. nothin’ about throwing up and acting in a horrifying way. so how do you say shulchan aruch says to get sickly drunk, if what you just quoted does not specifically say that?

yummy: I’m not sure how to respond to that. It says to drink until you don’t understand the difference between blessed is mordechai and cursed is haman. That seems to be a way of saying an extreme level of drunkenness.

In fact, the ran says that it really means that you don’t understand the difference between ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ???????, because just haman and mordechai is impossible to drink enough to get that drunk.

Sam: The Beis yosef says: ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????. ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? (?:) ????? ??????? (?”? ???) ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??”? (?: ?”? ??’) ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??”? (??) ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??’ ???? ?????? ????? (??) ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???: ???? ?????? ???? (??’ ????? ??? ??) ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???

Then, he himself writes in the shulchan aruch: ???? ???? ?????? ?????? * ?? ??? ??? (?) ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????.

Reading the beis yosef, it is not clear how he is paskening. The beis yosef brings different opinions. I think it is fair to say the shulchan aruch accepts the one which he codified by itself. I think it is fair to say he intended the shulchan aruch to be read by itself without reference to other opinions he had brought in the beis yosef.

Have you ever seen anyone assuming the shulchan aruch himself did not paskin like something he says explicitly, because he had brought both opinions in the beis yosef? I have never seen this, and my semicha covered 280 blatt of shulchan aruch.

Here is the bach. I will quote and then explain.

? ????? ?????? ???’. ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ???? ???? (???? ? ??? ? ?”? ?”? ????) ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? (????? ??’ ?) ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??”?:

?????”? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??’ ???? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??’ ???? ?????? ?”? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??’ ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???”? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??’ ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ????????? (?”? ??”? ??? ?) ??? ??? ????”? (??”? ????) ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ????”? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ???”?:

So he starts with tosfos and the ran. They hold that it is almost impossible to get drunk enough to really not know between haman and mordechai, so they say it is a bit less until you don’t know the whole line about esther and zeresh, etc. Which is still pretty drunk.

Bach rejects that. Bach says that the pashtus of the gemara is that you must literally get drunk enough until ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ???. Until it is almost as drunk as ??? who did not know what his daughters were doing. Shikruso shel lot is patur from all mitzvos. It is drunker than I have ever been in my life, even on any purim.

Now, Bach himself ultimately rejects the gemara as not being the halacha, and reads the story in the gemara as retracting the halacha. But, anyone who does hold of the gemara (like the Mechaber), would then hold you must get drunk almost like shikruso shel lot.

And here is the elya rabba, explaining why we must do it, even though it is disgusting and usually frowned upon:

?????? ???’. ??”? ???? ?????? ??”? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????, ??”? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ?”? ????, ?? ????? ????? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ????, ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?”? ???? ???? ???, ???? ????? ????? ?????? (??) ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????, ??”? ?????? ????”? ??’ ?”? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????:

And here is the Shaarei teshuva:

???? – ???”? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???’ ????? ????? ?”? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????, ??? ???? ??? ????? (?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??”? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????) ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???”? ???? ??”?, ??????? ??”? ???”? ??? ?”? ?’ ????? ?? ????? ?”? ??”? ?? ????? ??? ?????’ ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ??’ ???? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ????:

Notice how he brings the siddur amudei shamayim, who says that his father used to do the gemara like the pashtus, when he was young and strong.

oops i read it as mishkav zerah. that’s what i thought he meant. i do not condone homosexuality or think it is spiritual. sorry.

Kanoi: Davening drunk is K’ilu Oved Avodah Zarah.

And anywhere close to Shichruso Shel Lot is life-threatening.

And anywhere close to Shichruso Shel Lot is life-threatening.

Agreed. And that is the mitzva according to the mechaber, nonetheless.

In my yeshiva, they had hatzala all over the place.

It isn’t so surprising; when something is important, you can accept some danger. At the marathon, they also have ambulances standing by.

PBA -“And anywhere close to Shichruso Shel Lot is life-threatening.”

“Agreed. And that is the mitzva according to the mechaber, nonetheless.

In my yeshiva, they had hatzala all over the place.”

For them it wasn’t. Nowadays there is no Heter to get that drunk. You and others here have made that up!

I tried searching for a thread that was on here around Purim time but couldn’t find it. But maybe some of you remember reading it. It was written by a bochur telling his story of what happened to him last year. He was going around collecting for his yeshiva. At each house he had some drinks. He didn’t even realize he was getting drunk. In fact he thought he was really holding his liquor well… until he passed out. When he awoke, he was in the hospital. His mother crying and his father saying Tehilim. Bottom line – the doctors told him he was very lucky to have survived. Had he not been brought to the hospital when he was, he would have chas v’shalom died. He wrote his story as a warning to others. NOW IF THAT’S NOT A WAKE UP CALL FOR ALL OF YOU WHO ADVOCATE GETTING SO WASTED, THEN THERE’S NOTHING ELSE TO SAY TO YOU..

Wolf – the thread that was recently started about you was well deserved. You really post with seichel.

gefen -That actually wasn’t a thread but it was in the news section. When you use the search option which is linked from the main CR page -search in news, not in CR.

A choshuv Rav in my city announced before Purim about the mitzva to drink on Purim ad delo yada. He said, “it is specifically regarding drinking that Chazal say, that if not done with the correct intentions, it is an aveira. That’s not to take away that if done leshem shamayim, it is a mitzva.”

The well known vort about Purim, that Yom Kippur is KIpurim (LIKE Purim), was born from this idea: From the way yummy cupcake interprets it, it seems the ultimate level for a person is that he should restrict himself leshem shamayim. However, according to this idea, the ultimate level, is actually when one can bring himself to that same madrega of Yom Kippur, but through enjoying the physical mitzvos (i.e. pleasures) of Purim.

my way, i didn’t mean to totally restrict oneself. i just think that once you go overboard, its not l’shem Shamayim anymore.

I strictly follow Shulchan Aruch L’shem Shamayim to get stone drunk on Purim.

I wonder if the people that DON’T get stone drunk are not getting drunk l’shem shamayim or they are simply afraid of fulfilling the obligation and mitzvah to get stone drunk and are thus looking for excuses and kulas to not get stone drunk.

If they would at least get plain drunk, even if it wasn’t stone drunk, I might be able to understand. But if they don’t get drunk AT ALL on Purim, they are likely just looking for an excuse to not fulfil their OBLIGATION and MITZVAH to get drunk.