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What do people think of girls and women dressed to kill, all allegedly within the confines of the law but outside its spirit by any definition?
Here we go again.
I was once at a wedding and saw one of the (non-Jewish) kitchen staff staring out the “window” of the door at the circle of women (not for a few seconds because his eyes wandered there).
um… not tznius…. the end
Not exactly within the confines of Halocha. It is clear from Pesukim in the begining of Yishaya and relevant Gemora in Shabbos with Rashi there that a married woman should not appear in public overly ” mekushetes”. It is just difficult to have the exact gedorim of what is “too much”. Some of the women out there are clearly in the “too much” range. Especially, at simchos.
the dresses are one thing but sometimes the makeup is so far over the top its insane
Goq…
Just a note to what you were saying… I agree, but I also think it’s ironic that when women wear all that makeup, they don’t even look good (imho)!
Men. Keep your eyes on the mens side of the mechitza.
What about the goyisha men, like the story kapusta mentioned above?
And if the men close their eyes all day, is that a license to dress to kill??
Apushatayid, what you are saying is ridiculous. You can not avoid seeing them entering /exiting the hall or in the hallways, etc. The answer is: women should not be dressed up so much.
They dont even look good? I’ve seen bozo with less makeup on and apy i dont usually use a mechitza when walking to the bathroom or just walking around.
Perhaps you see them. I don’t. I’m certainly not cognizant of the fact that a woman is “dressed to kill”. We each have our nisyonos, I guess this is one area where I don’t have the same level nisayon as you and perhaps I’m better off sitting this one out.
Rabbosai! Unfortunately we live within the lowest levels of tuma like our forefathers and mothers in Mitzrayim. It rubs off on us. We all have our strengths and we all have our glaring weaknesses. As Rabbi Berel Wein aptly stated, “People tend to confuse Judaism, which is flawless, with Jews who are full of them (i.e flaws)!” We are here to improve ourselves, Rabbosai!
I thought we just had a thread about this a few days ago…
This is so frightening!If Hashem has blessed a woman with beauty does she need to feel the desire to ” dress to kill?” Who exactly is she trying to impress??please all the women out there, please give it some serious thought!!!
Tznius is a sensitivity. The torah hasn’t clearly written out “Don’t wear too much makeup” or “the shaitel and/or hair can’t be longer than X”. All it says is, Tehei isha tznua. You can’t always prove with the shulchan aruch that this particular code of dress isn’t tznius. We – girls and women have to use our sensitivity and think what it looks like when we walk the streets when we look to kill even if we aren’t oiver on halacha.
So are you saying that if a woman over-does it, then a man can gaze at her, because he’s not really looking at HER?
I am not sure what the question is. Are you talking about people’s bad taste in style and fashion or are you talking about the tznius aspect of not drawing attention to oneself?
When one goes to a wedding you tend to do your best to look your best. Now depending on your stature, style, grace and financial status, people will dress to impress to the best of their ability. And again I would say stop blaming the women and start speaking a bit to the men, the husbands and the fathers. It is the nature of a woman to dress up and it is the nature of a man to enjoy that. So if it is inappropriate a man should learn how to speak to their wives and daughters in a nice manner and suggest that they try NOT to look better than the kallah or her mother.
aries, you are correct in that these women’s husband or father are equally culpable for her transgression and must put their foot down and stop it.
Surely you heard the line about jewish men. Breaking the glass under the chupah is the last time they will ever put their foot down.
That’s a funny line, but not halacha. A man is responsible for the ruchniyos of his family members.
Thanx for the warning guys! i have 2 weddings next week and i’ll try not to make you trip and fall…..
I’m still hurting from my last fall.
I see nothing at all wrong in being dressed fashionably – as long as it is appropriate for the function that you are attending and is flattering to the wearer. I am not suggesting that one wear a beaded gown to shul on Saturday morning or a wool suit to a wedding. If you aren’t sure if your clothing is flattering or appropriate, take someone whose opinion you trust with you when you go shopping. I remember a couple of years ago my Rabbi gave a sermon/Dvar Torah about clothing and finery. One of the things I distinctly remember is that he said one should wear their finest clothing for Shabbat. I always dress “up” for Shabbat, but again, I say appropriately. I have accumulated a large collection of Shabbat clothing. Since I don’t attend many weddings or evening functions, my fancy wardrobe is far more limited. But, I do know the difference between daytime and evening wear. I do go to shul every Shabbat “dressed to kill”, but always appropriately.
It’s never appropriate to dress to kill. Dressing up is different of course. But “evening wear” is not something you find in a Jewish wardrobe.
Men –
What is considered too much makeup? I generally use natural makeup, but sometimes for weddings I’ll dress up my eyes a little more.
The Gemorah in Shabbos 62b says that a reason for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash was women used excessive cosmetics, and that a women should care about her appearance for the purposes of not being repulsive to her husband.
In the Shevet HaLevi there is a responsa about a woman who dressed herself nicely and put on makeup only when she was going out of the house, where she would be seen by her friends and neighbors. This is when she cared to appear attractive. However, in her own house, she did not care to enhance her natural appearance. Was this conduct acceptable, or did it indicate some degree of a breach in the standards of tznius? The answer given was that although we find in the Gemarah that Chazal emphasized that a woman should care about her appearance, this is specifically in terms of not being repulsive in front of her husband. If a woman puts a great effort into being noticed by strangers, this is reminiscent of the sins of the daughters of Yerushalayim at the time of the destruction.
There is nothing wrong with looking good, even for yourself. There is over the top and innapropriate. I’m laughing at this thread, because I cannot count how many well meaning people have told me to wear more make-up, dress nicer, etc, because I am single. It’s a bit of a double standard.
Individual, they are not wrong. Rashi over there in Shabbos makes a distinction between married women and single ones.
Minyan gal, the problem is when married women are seen by strange men when the said women are dressed up too much.
The lady who calls herself “hudi”, that’s not a problem. A lot of blush, bright red lipstick, excessive eye make-up are problems.
hudi… you’re in the clear if you stay natural… Makeup should enhance one’s natural features (mascara, a touch of eye shadow sometimes), not create new ones (layers of foundation and unnatural lip-stuffs).—IMHO
We had this discussion before on other threads. Many and I will say it again because “many” of us disagree but “MANY” women “dress to impress” other women. And the concept of “dressing to kill” is that the other women should c”v drop dead when they seem them. lol.
On the other hand there are many women who have no clue, absolutely without a shadow of a doubt, that they look to put it mildly “over the top” in many cases they don’t even realize how borderline or questionable their tznius level is. They look away, make an excuse or whatever. Others as one said just look to see how their elbows, knees and neckline is covered and not in what way.
And that goes for makeup as well. The idea of makeup is to have it enhance your natural beauty. Anyone with any degree of “class” does not slather on makeup or have it stand out like a marquee flashing “look at me”. When they look in the mirror they think they look good. When we look at them we don’t even see them, we see ruby red lipstick, false eyelashes, blue eyeshadow and lots and lost of mascara and maybe even hairspray. It might not be that non-tznius if we don’t really notice or recognize the person beneath it all.
A Chinese worker at a Frum wedding was heard saying while staring at middle aged and older Jewish married womem: “Jewish ladies SO BEAUTIFUL”
A Jewish married woman should make herself beautiful to her husband and not attract the attention of other men especially non Jewish ones by looking like movie stars with Non Jewish looking sheitels, clothing and makeup.
Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between the unmarried girls and the grandmothers.
Many parent’s ask for a reduction in their children’s tuition and at the same time spend a fortune just to look Beautiful. Lets get our priorities right!
We should look like a Am Kaddosh and not the opposite!!
some apply make up like war paint.lol
What is so hard to understand is that rabbonim and roshei yeshivos have been crying out loud to us about this problem for so many decades already, and yet it keeps getting worse.
Minyan Gal: WHO ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL, IN SHULE NONE THE LESS??????
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