Drafting Chareidim

I am a G-d fearing Jew. I believe that if the law of the land says to go to the army, you go. Especially if the country is very accommodating to your needs. They’re not drafting all chareidim. Also I try my hardest to listen to what the gedolim and I have the upmost respect for them, however you have to make decisions on your own, that’s why Hashem gave us bechira. There were gedolim who told their chassidim to stay in Poland and Germany during the war and boy were they wrong! Gedolim are human beings; they are not perfect. (a side not- didnt the gedolim ban the Internet?)

If the goal is to preserve Israel as a zionist state, it is critical for the zionists to solve the pending demographic cliff. At current birthrates, and given that “baalei tseuvah” are more common than “off the derekh”, by the end of the 21st century, Israel will have a hareidi majority. Well before that, the hareidim in Israel will become a critical player since they have the option of allying with non-hareidi religious, as well as with the Arabs (an option for no other party in Israel).

The zionists have correctly determined they need to put a stop to the hareidi growth problem. Based on past experience, if you take a hareidi teenager and force him to spend three years eating food that is borderline kosher (which is the situation unless you are in a special religious unit), keeping Shabbos according to some very creative interpretations of halacha, etc., a certain percentage will go off the derekh. If you look at other countries, such as the American Jewish community after the Revolution, the Civil War, and the world wars – there is certainly a reason for the zionists to hope that mass conscription into regular army units will enable a preservation of the zionist majority.

Lapid thinks many ex-hareidim will, like his family, become hiloni. Bennett believes they will end up as “religious zionists”. The army thinks this is a recipe for disaster and will try to isolate hareidi soldiers in special units – noting that unlike the siutations in America above, if the leading Bnei Torah are drafted they will influence the other soldiers, hareidi and dati, leading to widespread disobedience of orders in the army and undermining the army. An added complication is some hareidi who hold that Medinat Yisrael exists contrary to Torah (meaning the Israelis are the “Rodef”, and therefore have no right to kill the Arabs) will refuse to serve in the army, and force the Israelis to arrest them (triggering possible international sanctions) or in effect allow anyone to refuse military service for reasons of “religion and conscience” (giving Israel a volunteer army, similar to most other countries in the 21st century).

It will be “Interesting” – as in the famous curse, “may you live in interesting times.”

Charedim are the fastest growing segment of the Israeli (and Jewish population as a whole) at some point in the near future 2030-2050 that will be the majority of the population and soon after that a super Majority (say 70% or more).

The math doesnt work, you cannot have 70% of the population sitting a kollel while the rest do the army, work , pay taxes and support the other 70% while trying to support their own families

Charedim are the fastest growing segment of the Israeli (and Jewish population as a whole) at some point in the near future 2030-2050 that will be the majority of the population and soon after that a super Majority (say 70% or more).

Make that 100%, because once they’re a majority, the chilonim aren’t going to want to live there anymore. Because they’ll make them keep the torah.

Make that 100%, because once they’re a majority, the chilonim aren’t going to want to live there anymore. Because they’ll make them keep the torah.

Probably true at some , The Non Charedim will leave rapidly .

Then you will have 100% (or close to it) of people not serving.

At the time of the maskilim, they put on a show poking fun at charedim. It went like this:

the enemy came to attack. the jewish army was massive and strong. then the leader of the nation got up and declared:

anyone who planted a vineyard and hasn’t seen fruit, go home. anyone who married within the last year, go home. anyone who is worried about his sins, go home. And who was left to fight? a handful of older scholars against the fierce enemy!

This was supposed to be a very funny joke, based on what is written in tanach.

But the point is, we need to remember that thats how it really was – and we won. (when we merited Hashems help)

??? ???? ???? ?????? – ?????? ??? ?’ ??????? ?????

I don’t expect people who have no idea what judaism is to know – but i do think that religious jews should have a bit more trust in G-d and a bit more ????? ?????.

We need to do what G-d says, and we’ll leave the math to Him.

According to “math” – the jewish nation should have been extinct years ago. We need zechuyos to continue.

“the enemy came to attack”

In such a case the exemptions do not apply.

I have learning about the Lechem HaPanim (Show bread) in the Temple. Even though miracles occurred with it, we had to make every effort to prevent it from spoiling.

I can only hope you’re being tongue-in-cheek when wishing the apocalypse upon the Jews in Israel: civil strife, imposed observance, expulsion, collusion with the Arabs to destroy the country, etc.

I’m curious that you find imposed observance, as described in the Torah, to be a apocalypse.

To be fair, he may be concerned that he will be forced to observe in a way that he thinks is not necessary from a halachic viewpoint.

For example, you would be upset if the mizrachi became the majority and forced you to go get a secular education because they think that is a mitzva.

And for that matter if Satmar forced you to live the way they do.

The Torah does not describe imposed observance on a mass scale. It describes maintained observance by on rare occasions enforcing Religious law. When the Sanhedrin starting executing too many people, because the Torah was not being kept, they didn’t ratchet up the enforcement, they quit.

It just won’t work against a large segment of the population.

So the argument is that it won’t work. If it doesn’t work, then presumably they’ll stop doing it.

But you of course agree that it is proper to force torah observance even on a mass scale.

Also, we have more resources than they had then. Chizkiya sent agents to search people’s houses for avoda zara, but they would worship after the agents left. But today, you can just bug the houses.

@Benignuman

I don’t know why you are making up halacha.

Popa,

What are you talking about?

Chevron,

I support drafting the Chareidim into the army, I don’t necessarily support forcing them to serve if they genuinely hold it is assur (I assume you are referring to those who hold that working with the Medina on anything is treif altz hischabrus with reshaim).

Everyone is drafted. They come in for their interview and if they claim that they are from the groups that hold it is assur, their claim will be investigated. If it holds up they will be given a p’tur conditioned on their never taking financial aid from the Government.

Without a Sanhedrin you cannot have a torah society.

You cannot have a Beis Hillel/Beis Shammai Ellu V’Ellu situation

What happens if for example Rav Shteinman say what you did is Chayiv Missah and Rav Yosef says its muttar. Who is correct. It isnt academic anymore if the ability to carry out Skilah is done.

You need to have to same law for everyone

Health,

On a previous thread I listed the Mizrachi Gedolim that held that there is a chiyuv to participate in the army, chiyuvis not just kiyumis. Maybe we understand the word chiyuv differently.

More importantly, as I wrote above, I don’t mean that someone should be forced at gunpoint into the army. They should be drafted and have to come down for an interview. If they claim that they hold it is assur on the grounds that the entire Medinah is treif and being in the army is an assur of hischabrus, then they will receive a patur, but they will also be ineligible for any financial assistance from the treifene medinah.

TorahHashkafa,

It is not a matter of one is more or less than the other. They are both necessary and they operate on different planes.

It is like asking what is more important for a Jew to live, eating food or learning Torah and keeping Mitzvos. If you don’t eat you will die, but if you don’t learn Torah and keep Mitzvos, what is life worth?

ZD, I don’t get your point. We can have Torah society without a Sanhedrin, we just can’t carry out punishments.

If we had a Sanhedrin, it wouldn’t be up to R’ Shteinman and Chacham Ovadiah, it would be up to the Sanhedrin (they would both likely be members).

benignuman -“On a previous thread I listed the Mizrachi Gedolim that held that there is a chiyuv to participate in the army, chiyuvis not just kiyumis. Maybe we understand the word chiyuv differently.”

No, Avi K, you’re are just misinterpreting their words for your twisted politics. Telling s/o who asks you a Shaila (a MO Rabbi) that you should go to the IDF and saying that the Israeli Gov. should draft (ie -force) Charedim into the army against their will, is Not the same thing, no matter how much you Scream it is!

“More importantly, as I wrote above, I don’t mean that someone should be forced at gunpoint into the army. They should be drafted and have to come down for an interview. If they claim that they hold it is assur on the grounds that the entire Medinah is treif and being in the army is an assur of hischabrus, then they will receive a patur, but they will also be ineligible for any financial assistance from the treifene medinah.”

You’re one of the biggest hypocrite, lying, Zionists here.

Drafting them you claim is Not being forced -then why is it a draft? You claim the forcing is Not for jail time, but to lose Gov. money. Since when did the Israeli Gov. give people Kollel checks in the first place? Oh, you mean take away their social programs because they are commiting a crime. So therefore they are second-class citizens – even lower than arabs. But you just said the army will give them a Patur? Obviously you don’t know what Patur from the IDF means! I never seen such double talk and contradictions in one post ever before.

Cool it before we have to start deleting your posts.

ZD, I don’t get your point. We can have Torah society without a Sanhedrin, we just can’t carry out punishments.

If we had a Sanhedrin, it wouldn’t be up to R’ Shteinman and Chacham Ovadiah, it would be up to the Sanhedrin (they would both likely be members)

So what would be the halachas?

How is someone supposed to know them if 2 Gedolim disagree on them

A sanhedrin would solve that problem since they would be the final arbitor of Halacha

IDF Chief Rabbi Peretz Fires Back

(Thursday, January 5th, 2012)

Rabbi Levanon is joined by Rabbi Eliezer Melamed of Har Bracha and others.

So, if I understand correctly, it’s not okay to force people to keep Shabbos and kashrus, if they would prefer to be mechallel Shabbos and eat tarfus. It is okay, however, to force people into the army if they would prefer to stay in yeshivah. Is that correct?

Whose Shabbos and Whose Kashruth. Can you force people to eat Chalov Yisroel. What if one Rav permits using an Eruv on Shabbos and another forbids it?

That’s beside the point. I was pointing out the incongruity of Benignuman’s position.

That’s beside the point. I was pointing out the incongruity of Benignuman’s position

That is my point, the halacha in many cases is ambiguious (Ellu V Ellu). Until this problem is solved one halacha for everyone , it is impossible.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but what if there are several laws that contradict (One Rav says Assur and another says Muttar)

“I meant to say since there isnt a Sanhedrin and wont be until Moshiach comes. How are you supposed to have a Torah Society? …

If you mean the latter, then until Moshiach comes, we have to take a more lenient approach, while allowing individuals to be as stringent as their opinions or those of their poskim tell the to be.”

Precisely.

An example would be even though the Ashkenazi poskim held that the concept that Ethiopians should be considered jews was weak, they held their peace when R’ Ovadia Yosef ruled otherwise.

Nevertheless, as Menachem Begin responded when there was a demand to ammend the Conversion Law, that conversion is Halacha which belongs to the realm of Poskim.

(Begin in his straightfowardness would pass over the heads of Mizrachi to discuss religious questions with the gedolim of the chareidi world.)

There has been a misunderstanding of my position on both ends.

1) I was initially responding to Popa’s claim that we would Make the Chilonim keep the Torah. I was saying that the Torah provides no mechanism by which this can be done. The individual punishments of malkus and misa are not meant to be used as a club to force compliance on a broad sector of a society.

I did not say that we should not, or could not, have a society that is run al pi Torah. We can pass laws making it illegal for a store to be open on Shabbos. We can require all eateries to keep a basic level of Kashrus. We should not however pass a law that says if you put a piece of cheese on your hamburger you get fined X shekalim or you go to jail. (Is an atheist who keeps the Torah at gunpoint better than the atheist that keeps nothing at all?)

In other words we can establish that society will run al pi Torah in the public sphere, but we can’t legislate what people do in the privacy of their homes, even if we are the majority.

2) The purpose of the draft is that it forces people to make a choice whether or not they are willing to put their money where their mouth is with respect to the Medinah. If someone holds the Medinah is treif, then why should he get money from the Medinah, why should he get unemployment, child checks and free health care?

I don’t think that anyone should be forced at gunpoint to be a soldier (do you really want a disloyal soldier on the battlefield).

This is presupposing that the frum army units will be run al pi halacha.

As an aside, I find it truly ironic that some people will, in the same breath, say that it is proper to force people to keep all of halacha, but then say that no Gadol has held that Chareidim should be forced into the army, while admitting that there have been Gedolim that held it was a chiyuv to serve in the army.