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How come when Neturei Karta met
With achmendinijad many people including those who are supposedly non Zionist were furious. However when
“rabbunim” met with the rosh hakofrim Netanyahu and previous prime ministers these same people are silent?
Dumb question. None of those kofrim called for the destruction of gantz klal Yisroel (or even if you fool yourself into thinking that’s not what achmendinijad wants, the millions of Jews living in Eretz Yisroel).
So even if the Israeli prime ministers are/were not tzaddikim, they’re not as big sonei Yisroel as you guys.
Another dumb question.
The reason to meet with the PM (such as the Chazon Ish with Ben Gurion) is to salvage as much for Yiddishkeit as possible, whereas the reason you reshaim meet with achmendinijad and the like is to hug them and show them support.
Chazal met with reshoyim leaders like the Roman Caesar Vespasian when he came to destroy Yerushalyaim r’l.
However when “rabbunim” met with the rosh hakofrim Netanyahu . . .
I guess you don’t really get the lessons we’re supposed to learn during the 9 days, do you?
Let me preface that I do not agree with the Neturei Karta who meet and or march with the various terrorist groups who are definitely ermines to try to destroy Israel and hate Jews in general.
However, I will note the the liberals seem to take issue with them as well. Which is highly hypocritical because their groups such as J Street or Btselem and The piece of trash The Forward are much more detrimental. They actively support and send money to the terrorists or rile up followings against Israel.
The damage they do and Soros is among them as well has directly led to the death of Jews and other Israelis. None of which has happened from the actions of NK.
oy
i bdavka came here to have some sanity (as opposed to Yahoo news where they have tyis kind of talk)
i guess it needs spelling out
the gedolim don’t say jews should be killed, don’t meet with leaders on shabbos, and for sure don’t make a mockery of yiddishkeit
l’havdil elef alfei havdalos
kj,
would neturei karta be happy if israel was destroyed, what do they want to happen to israel?
KJ…and that’s why we can’t have nice things, like Mashiach.
Never in our history has there been so much Torah being learned by so many Jews; aside from any other consideration, its the “kofrim” you are deriding who have facilitated and significantly funded what the gedolim built. Never mind also the infrastructure (roads, electricity, health services) that the “kofrim” built which serve those learning Torah.
No need even to get in to the Zionism discussion. Hopefully, at this time of year, you can look in your heart and find something positive to say about your brothers and sisters.
I would like to ask the originator of this thread why he is so against the Medinat Israel?
A day or two ago, my husband and I were talking about what drives the feeling behind the Neturei Karta movement ?
We thought that perhaps it stemmed from the murder of deHaan???
You know that there are sometimes elements outside the government(or, in this case pre-government) that are rogue and commit violent acts without official sanction or are actually a separate organization, such as, the murder of Rudolf Israel Kastner. This murder, like possibly deHaan’s, could have been committed by such a rogue “CIA” type organization.
An actual act that involved the Haganah, the official pre and post government military organization, was the Altalena affair, in which many Irgun members were killed and tons of precious arms were destroyed.
Menachem Begin forgave those perpetrators and forged the united fighting force that saved the Jewish people of Israel and led to the defense of the nascent State of Israel.
What if he had held grudges and felt that his way was the only way?
G-d forbid, there would have been a massacre and, even worse, fratricide!
It is a noble role to be the “Guardians of the City” but, sometimes, HKBH may want to give others a chance to guard in a way that is easier and more appropriate for themselves.
Please don’t discount the attempts by others to serve H’ in a way, that their own way, even if it’s lacking in many aspects.
Let’s try to love one another, an excess of love over an excess of zeal.
tirtsa: i have thought about it. i theorize that NK got its jump start as follows: there were jews who have always maintained the yishuv in E”Y even as their brothers went for greener pastures in Europe and elsewhere. they suffered to live in israel and worked hard to maintain a yishuv in the face of a rabid enemy by working towards a peaceful coexistence all the while emphasizing their religious lifestyles and beliefs.. when the green pastures were converted into killing fields the zionists basically invaded the yishuv, dumped on religion, cared little about the jews who were there and what they were doing, pretended to be the first jews to show up and basically claimed the titled of the “jews of israel” from the jews who were already there. the old religious yishuv then became NK who tried to reclaim its position by aligning itself with all of the palestinians who were displaced by the zionists.
What happened since is a different story. Satmar came along and gave a chassidish, quazi-halachic reason to oppose zionism. NK and satmar started to mesh. those with extremist views rotated towards NK while those with a more moderate approach denounced them. the rest, as they say, is history.
“A day or two ago, my husband and I were talking about what drives the feeling behind the Neturei Karta movement ?”
Sheer hatred, similar to antisemitism. They hate because they hate. Don’t overthink it.
“all of the palestinians who were displaced by the zionists.”
I like your post except for that one line above.
Most of the Arabs that lived in Palestine(the old name for Eretz Yisrael in that region of the Ottoman Empire) were not in great numbers and the wealthy ones fled with the conflict, most of who we today call “Palestinians” came from neighboring areas in response to the building taking place in Eretz Yisrael, largely brought about by the Zionists.
I guess the “green pastures” and “killing fields” you refer to are those associated with WWI, I’ve read that there was much, much suffering in the Old Yishuv as a result of that conflict, which dried up all the halukka from abroad and then the Zionists came and took over the halukka and gave it out according to their priorities which involved, from such benign things as teaching Hebrew to such serious matters as interfering with the Torah instruction of centuries old tradition, sort of like the last government.
So, according to your assessment the original NK were the Ashkenazi Old Yishuv, composed of the perushim, the disciples of the Vilna Gaon. I saw that in Wiki, but didn’t believe it but now I do. Thanks.
MDG,
Well it is sad but it started from somewhere, and I was just trying to get a reason for it.
Let’s hope that it will end soon and we’ll all be in Eretz Yisrael, as one Am Yisrael. Amen.
MDG: Have you a ever spoken to a member of the NK?
They actually have quite a reasonable explanation. They claim that they’re actually protecting Jews all around by Showing the Arabs that it’s a purely political issue and Jews are their enemies.
I don’t agree with them I think they’re a bunch of misguided lunatics but they’re certainly not driven by hatred. Wishful thinking, stupidity perhaps but not hatred.
Can NK be classified as reshaim Al pi halacha? I doubt it but unless they are ahavas yisrael extends to them as well.
sushi,
chillul shabbos b’farhesia doesnt make them reshaim?
sushibagel: A Rodef based on an improper assumption is still a Rodef.
Coffee addict: Chillul shabbos bferhesia makes them a lot worse them than reshaim it makes them korfim but the majority of them are not mechallel shabbos bferhesia.
Sam: And why would they be considered roidfim?
Don’t tell me that they’re showing the terrorists it’s ok to kill Jews, they will argue the exact opposite. Both arguments equally hold no weight.
My point is that although we may find their behaviour abhorrent, we can’t just classify them as reshaim apikorsim etc. There has to be an halchic basis to it.
Unless you find a reason to reason to classify them as such then all the halachos of bein adam lchaveiro apply as well as chezkas kashrus and all the halachos pertaining to it. You can count them for minyan, drink their wine etc.( unlike the others kJ mentioned)
Just to be clear, I’m siding with them in any way. I find their behaviour absolutely disgusting and seeing them in the news makes my blood boil. Still, the torah is not about how we feel.
sushi,
i consider kofrim reshaim
additionally you bring up a great point
can you count netanyahu for a minyan, i think so
If a Frum jew kept all Halachas met with Haman, He would still be a Moser and a Rasha.
I see I keep on leaving out words have to be more careful in the future.
1) they argue that they’re showing the Arabs that Jews are NOT Their enemies.
2) I’m NOT siding with them in any way.
If a Frum jew kept all Halachas met with Haman, He would still be a Moser and a Rasha.
Who’da thunk that Esther was a moser and rasha!
KJ maybe they were trying to do Kiruv.
I don’t know if they could get Bibi to live a torah life, but they have a better chance with him (and all of Israel) than Muslims who want Jews dead.
Coffee addict: you’re absolutely right but the majority of them are neither reshaim nor apikorsim. Bibi is a Mecahlel shabbos how would you count him for minyan?
Who’da thunk that Esther was a moser and rasha!
Esther was forced into that position and its clear Chazal approved.
NK were not forced to meet with Ahmadinejad YMSH
Esther was not forced. And neither was Yochanan ben Zakkai forced to meet Vespasian when he met him before Vespasian destroyed Yerushalayim.
That’s irrelevant, the point is that meeting with a rasha doesn’t make one a moiser. I far ad we know there was no mesira involved.
What about marching in Berlin ON Shabbos
Does that make one a Rasha?
They also participated in a rally a few years ago in Washington DC ON SHABBOS
Sam2:
“sushibagel: A Rodef based on an improper assumption is still a Rodef.”
But is a rodef (especially based on a mistaken assumption) necessarily a rasha? Which was the issue.
“MDG: Have you a ever spoken to a member of the NK?
They actually have quite a reasonable explanation. “
Maybe they claim that. But it seems to me that they only pay lip service to their reasons, whether halachic or political.
KJ said, “Another prime example of a double standard @sam2 ur so quick to call Neturei Karta reshuim but would u say the same for Ben gurion who supported systematically removing the Jewish religion from millions?”
There is no question that David “ben Gurion” Green was a Rasha. That’s obvious. Nothing to discuss.
“Esther was not forced. And neither was Yochanan ben Zakkai forced to meet Vespasian when he met him before Vespasian destroyed Yerushalayim.”
Esther was forcefully taken to the palace. The passuk says “Vatilakah Esther” – Esther was taken. When she later went to Ahashvarosh, she did so based on the command of Mordechai, one of the Gedolai hador, in order to save Jews.
Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai was one of the Gedolai Hador. He knew what he was doing.
Both of them risked their lives in pressing times of need to save Jews and Judaism. Both acted on what we would presently call “Daas Torah”. Both of them had plans with end goals in mind that proved to work in a short amount of time.
NK has none of that.
MDG: Nobody was talking about Esther and Achashveiros. We were talking about Esther meeting Haman. And you missed the context of this point, as it was a response to zdad’s claim that anyone who would dare meet Haman would automatically be “a moser and a rasha”.
The point about Yochanan ben Zakkai and Vespasian is that there is no inherent aveira with meeting an enemy of the Jews. In fact, throughout Jewish history Jews and Jewish leaders have met our enemies. Did Moshe meet Pharaoh? Did Jews not meet King Ferdinand of Spain to plead to revoke the expulsion edict? And Nazis. (Did Kastner ask Daas Torah about negotiating with Eichmann to get a train to Switzerland?)
zdad,
se my post above
Leis Man D’palig that Ben Gurion was a Rasha.
Feivel: I think mistaken assumptions can make one a Rasha, especially if those mistaken assumptions lead to actions that classify as Rishus.
Sam2:
“sushibagel: A Rodef based on an improper assumption is still a Rodef.”
A rodef based on an improper definition of a roidef is not.
i’m assuming you call them roidfim because they endanger our lives with their actions. do you really believe that?
Zahvasdad: What about marching in Berlin ON Shabbos
Does that make one a Rasha?
why would it?
It might make them reshaim by our definition, but why it give them the halachic status of a rasha?
Joseph,
I agree that I missed some points. I see them now that I reread.
I still contend, OTOH, that all those that met with evil leaders were dealing with pressing needs and had some sort of plan. NK is not dealing with any pressing need to save anyone. They had/has no plan and no need to meet with Reshaim.
MDG: I would imagine they would retort that a nuclear armed Iran threatening the Jews in Israel is a pressing need, and they would probably further argue that like pleading with Roman General Vespasian to save some Jews they fancy themselves doing something along similar lines.
Being Mechalal Shabbos B’farchesa makes one a Rasha.
Your point is that Netanyahu is a rasha for being mechallel Shabbos? The nk guys walking in the demonstration on Shabbos doesn’t sound like mechallel Shabbos by walking.
Zahavasdad: Nobody’s arguing with that.
Where they being mechalel shabbos at the Berlin march?
Joseph and sushi : Oh please! Are you playing dumb? Do you really believe they were not mechallel shabbos? If I told you I walked to a college lecture on shabbos you’d be all over it. one year there were pictures of the shabbos march and some of them were holding signs. Oh,wait maybe the Hamas guys had a kosher eiruv!
Okay, I believe it now because you said they are. Can’t argue with such impeccable logic. Now if you don’t mind explaining how they were mechallel for the less intellectual, they’ll be sure to be thankful. If you are talking about guys carrying, then that would indeed be applicable to the guys who were carrying, if there was no town eiruv. The pictures I’ve seen (from Shabbos) didn’t show them carrying.
Gee, Jo, this may be a challenge I’m just not up to. Usually when you want to make a point, you state it as fact and poof! it becomes fact. So now you want it not to be so, okay, poof! We can all start attending rallies on shabbos afternoons.
And the signs werethere in previous year’s pictures but if you didn’t see them, poof! Now they’re gone too.
Syag: Classifying someone as a mechalel shabbos is a serious matter carrying severe halachic implications (you can’t count them for minyan, their wine is yayin nesech, a kesuba signed by them is invalid etc). Which is why you can’t just do it based on assumptions.
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