Dont Sell Chassidus

Orthodoxy in America pre-WWI was horrible. Between WWI and WWII it started improving a bit but was still in der erd. Yes, despite that there were those that were mesira nefesh to stay frum, they were the exceptions by far. Even if your family was one of them. Until WWII real Torah Judaism and religious life was in Europe.

@NevilleChaimBerlin

You hit the nail on the head. There is nothing ‘Classic’ about the current Litvish community in America that has moved far to the right in the past 35-40 years.
40-50 years ago I was considered to the right of MO. MO synagogues commonly held mixed dances in those days.

Here’s an analogy……………..

Mrs. CTL has her orignal 1971 Jaguar XKE, that’s a classic. One of our daughters has a 2017 Jaguar F Type. That’s current version/sucessor, but not a classic

I have also been called a Mayflower jew as My family has also been in the US since before World War I

Joseph: His point is that he’s Ashkenaz, Orthodox, and learned in Yeshiva; it sounds like back then that was called Litvish. The fact that the current use of the terms excludes all those who aren’t Chareidi is why he put the word “classic” in front of it.

I would be reluctant to start identifying as MO if I were him also. If he’s been one way his whole life, and for his entire upbringing they called that Litvish, it would be frustrating to have to change your identity when you haven’t changed your character at all.

RY: Why did you have to put the thread back on topic? The “classic Litvak” debate was much more interesting and cordial than listening to jealous slobs whine about Rabbonim who have more money than them.

As far as what a “true Litvak” is, I think we can fairly say that the type of Litvaks seen by the Brisker Rov and his successors and talmidim today as well as the type of Litvishness on display in the Ponevezh Yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel today, to take two contemporary exemples, is a far closer rendition of the type of Yiddishkeit lived in Lita in places like Vilna, Novardok and Kovna — than the type of Judaism that in this thread is being called “classic Litvish”.

“1) Just because I want something for the general populace does not mean I shall avail myself of it.2) My religious prescriptions and restrictions are taken up by choice and should not be foisted upon the general American public 3)beyond the Noachide Laws)”

The sentiments are a little contradictory [or is it Legalspeak]
though others have insinuated this might be the wrong Thread for that.

@DovidBT
Sorry my car analogy offended you.
Would you be happier if I referred to my Machzor Kol Bo as a Classic and the new Art Scroll as a successor but not a classic.

Mrs. CTL’s car was bought new 47 years ago. The insurance industry labels it a ‘classic’ and the State of CT issues Classic Car license plates which come at a reduced rate. That is why I mentioned it, not because of its current market value. Our daughter’s car is hers, not ours. Earned for and paid for by her labor.

So let me see if I follow. Anyone with a secular education is MO. Is that the criteria?

There was a historic conversation between the Or Semaich and the Chofetz Chaim where the CC traveled to speak to the OS regarding the government edict that Yeshivas would be forced to include Russian in their curriculum. The OS responded “Nu, what’s so terrible if bachurim learn to speak russian?” The meeting ended at an impasse. Was the Or Semaich MO?

Rabbi Moshe Meiselman and Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb both have PHDs. Are they MO?

NP,
Set a strawman and then going on the attack?
Choosing to put phrases into people’s mouths??

“Rabbi Moshe Meiselman and Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb both have PHDs. Are they MO?”
1000% not
MO tend to abuse and malign those two especially the former, more than they do to the stereotypical mainstream charedim.Which ought to be more than a bit telling

if they are anything they’re either anti MO or very Far right wing MO

” today the terminology/nomenclature has changed in popular usage from CL to become MO”
Not for hashkafa.Perhaps for externals and mannerisms

An advanced secular education in Law or Medicine doe NOT make one Modern Orthodox. It does make one able to function in the USA, earn a living, support our Jewish institutions and defend them in court.

How many times do we read here on YWN about attacks via zoning and other laws on our community. People with advanced secular education in Law are needed to fight and win these battles.

I don’t want prayer in the public schools, you want prayer in school, go to a private religious school and pay for it yourself, not with vouchers. MOs support vouchers to cover the cost of their kids in day schools.

I want the Civil Rights Laws strengthened, not weakened. I do not trust Trump.
I want the Equal Rights Amendment to be the law of the land, not just in some state constitutions here in the northeast. I want equal pay for equal work. Why should the wife supporting her husband who is learning earn less than a male in the same position?
That doesn’t make me MO

My family is not treading water, for 150 years here in the USA we have swam forward, bettering our lives and those of the frum community. We have stayed frum to the 9th generation. AND we weren’t forced to do that through social pressure in a ghetto in the Heim. We did it by choice and conviction.

MO men often clean shaven (with an electric), our family’s men have neat beards. Our wives wear wigs, they don’t wear pants.

I don’t like when Jews label other Jews, it brings no good.
I have seen the change in American Orthodoxy in the past 5 years and it has led to more division which is not good.

Today, I’ll be in Boro Park, for the first time in 3 years. I have a family funeral. I’ll not be shopping or dining out. BUT, 100 years since my great-grandfather moved from Manhattan to Boro Park we still have family members there. They are not Chassidim, They go to Yeshiva then college. Medical, Law or Engineering schools. The families are frum, we learn regularly and live our lives.

NP,
I concede.It is by and large irrelevant as the thrust remains the same. However yes indeed,immediately after typing my impetuous post I noticed the inherent contradiction.

@ It is Time for Truth

“The Classic Litvak has/had a disinterest for money, as well an aversion for ostentatious goods”

Having money is not the same as having an interest in money. One does not take an oath of poverty in our religion. Growing up / living in poverty is a nisayon it is not a prerequisite. I know some low income people who are very interested in money. They are always talking about “the waste” when wealthier people have nice cars, clothing, houses, weddings, etc. If they had the resources they would most certainly conduct themselves like the prototypical nouveau riche. They just don’t have the opportunity. One who is blessed with wealth has their nisyonos, some do better then others. This has nothing to do with being a “classic litvak”. Have you taken a ride through the nicer parts of Lakewood lately?

This thread makes me want to cry, literally. I am of the same generation (I think) as CTL, and forty years ago he would not have been considered MO in an out-of-town community. (Brooklyn I can’t speak for.) He’s also old enough to remember how we got this way, and what we had to go through on the way. In my neighborhood the older houses all have restrictions in the deeds – no selling to Blacks or Jews. Hotels routinely refused Jews rooms. And so forth. The younger generations, who never had to deal with this, feel entitled, when it’s the previous doros who fought the battles.

Furthermore, the whole business of labeling other Jews with denigrating labels – MO, Chassidish, Litvish – or any label at all, is revolting. It’s sinas chinam. Remember that? It’s how we lost the Second Bais HaMikdash. We’re reading Avos these days, which tells us a lot about machlokes and it’s consequences. Yet it seems that nowadays people make machlokes just for amusement. Let’s stop playing with labels and get back to the emes – kol Yisrael areivim zeh l’zeh.

If anyone is still under the impression that the MO is the only part of the Orthodoxy that works and has an education then they need to speak with their local kiruv professional, not the CR. That was never anyone’s point, and you’re only making a fool of yourself shouting that out here.

NP, you said earlier you haven’t been on the CR long. Could it be that CTL’s posts on other threads concerning religious matters are what cause people to label him as MO rather than this thread alone? And, while we’re at it, when somebody says “I explained above,” that’s not called “repeating himself.”

“NP, you said earlier you haven’t been on the CR long. Could it be that CTL’s posts on other threads concerning religious matters are what cause people to label him as MO rather than this thread alone? ”

Yes, that’s exactly it. It’s hardly this thread but the sum total of his comments elsewhere on this forum, as I pointed out in a previous comment. And I referred to him as MO with all due respect. In no way was that categorization used in a denigrating way (unless ones believes being MO itself is a denigration.)

unless ones believes being MO itself is a denigration

Which you do.

(It’s hardly this thread but the sum total of his comments elsewhere on this forum)

unless ones believes being MO itself is a denigration

Based on the above posts, it appears that some people, including CTL, do consider MO to be a denigration. But maybe that’s a topic for a new thread, which would probably be an endless discussion with no resolution.

I’m not sure how you missed the second half of my post. It wasn’t such a long post.

@ Midwest2

“the whole business of labeling other Jews with denigrating labels – MO, Chassidish, Litvish – or any label at all, is revolting”

For the most part the above labels are not denigrating. People tend to self identify with certain kahilot. What is revolting is
1) Negative stereotypes about the groups
2) Historical revisionism
3) When assimilation is only regarded as such when it cuts to the left
4) When a 9TH GENERATION frum Yid self identifies as a classic litvak and is being told by people who don’t know him personally that he is MO. And then not a single shred of evidence is provided to substantiate their statements save for some obscure references to “other posts”.

MO is a better label than the new Postmodern Orthodoxy
However it ought to be a general denigration
For R.Norman Lamm and ybm”l Rabbi JB Soloveitchik the term was/is a sort of halfway house almost like Carmelis

@ NCB
““1) Negative stereotypes about the groups”
You mean like saying Chassidim spend too much on weddings and don’t give tzedakah?

Yep. That’s a great example. Couldn’t agree with you more.

“3) When assimilation is only regarded as such when it cuts to the left”
What does this even mean? Religious left or political left?”

Both actually. Assimilation means adapting non-jewish ideas / culture. Somehow assimilation to the right is given a pass.

“I don’t even know that CTL denies that his views might mesh well with parts of the MO”

He denied it loudly and clearly.

“he admitted that he poskened like Rabbi JB Soloveitchik, so how could he not?”

Um, as I pointed out above HaRav Meiselman considers himself a talmid or RJBS. I don’t know anyone (in their right mind) who considers HaRav Meiselman MO.

Assimilation means adapting non-jewish ideas / culture. Somehow assimilation to the right is given a pass.

What does “assimilation to the right” mean? That’s not rhetorical; I actually don’t understand what you’re saying.

Based on the above, I suppose that “assimilation to the right” means “adopting non-jewish ideas / culture” that are “on the right”.

But what are these non-jewish ideas / culture that are “on the right”?

R’Kalonymus Kalman Shapiro of Piasetshna, the legendary rebbe of the Warsaw Ghetto who refused to escape without his followers and was murdered by the Nazis in Treblinka in 1943, was himself one of the most creative Hasidic minds of the 20th century. According to “Hasidism,” however, Shapiro “agreed with many of the critiques of Hasidism as a movement that lost its original spirit and animating mysticism, becoming instead a rigid social framework devoid of any vitality.”