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Every post is another plug for the experimental vaccine of which no one knows the long term effect… I’m beginning to suspect that they are making money from this…
Take the vaccine, it’s the best thing ever.
(YWN, that’ll be $15 USD)
No, they’re trying to save lives. Unfortunately, there is a vocal minority that is spreading mis-information that they read on a website or watched a video about. YWN is just publicizing facts and daas Torah. If you don’t believe me, next time you read an anti vax article, read what the website says about the Holocaust. Or whoever made or promoted that video, what they say about it. I dare you. I DON’T CARE IF THE VACCINE WORKS OR NOT, I CATE THAT ALL MAINSTREAM RABBONIM HAVE PUBLICLY CALLED TO TAKE IT. END OF STORY. IT’S CALLED HISHTADLUS. IF I DIE, I DIE, BUT I WILL TELL HASHEM I TRIED MY BEST. AND YES, I GOTBBOTH DOSES, AND AM NOT DEAD.
Tristate,
You choose to patronize this site so if you think they do you can take your business elsewhere, no one is forcing you to patronize them (at least I hope not)
Tristate Jew – Who do you think could be paying for news of many different vaccines? There are a lot of things that we don’t know the long term effects of including processed foods, flu shots, exposure to LED light and cell phones. We have to place our trust in the doctors and rabbonim who advocate vaccination to save lives. With 500,000 already dead we must trust that the vaccine will prevent the virus and do no harm.
“Every post is another plug for the experimental vaccine of which no one knows the long term effect”
Actually we do know the long term effect. You get the vaccine you aren’t dead from COVID.
I have seen no advertising from Pfizer, or Moderna, or AstraZenica, or Johnson & Johnson, or the Russian or Chinese governments here.
Yes, it’s all a selfish plot to keep people alive and clicking on their website so the ads get more views
Of course they do! They make money from ads. If people get sick and can’t log on, or die, Ch”V, then the revenue would go down. But I don’t think that’s why they’re publishing mainstream the recommendations. I think they people go into the business of spreading news because they enjoy spreading news. I think they want to make it clear that they believe very strongly that the vaccine saves lives statistically, which it appears to do. Catching covid also gives a comparable level of protection, but comes with awful short term risks and side effects, and you could give it to others, and there’s no excuse for that, R”L.
Tristate Jew, do you make money by opposing them?
One can always ask if someone is trying to help and save lives or make money. One could ask about hydroxychloroquine the same question. Was it promoted to make money or save lives? I know that line may upset some. Asking the question about YWN may upset some also. I will point out one thing. People think and do what they think and do, and almost nothing will change and impact that. Enjoy trying.
Congratulations @Lib, on your first post in eleven years (!) of being a YWN participant.
Your self-control is admirable.
“much safer treatments and prevention options like vitamin D, HCQ, ivermectin”
None of those are as safe as the vaccine, or a ywhere close to being as effective. HCQ is useless for COVID. Vitamin D is a good thing to have adequate levels of even without a pandemic. The ivermectin studies in humans have been a disappointment; it is not a cure.
Tristate Jew, please tell us about your medical, science and/or public health background and degrees. Tell us about your research as well; please include any research that *doesn’t*
include web sites.“There are safe prevention options.”
True. Permanent lockdowns, social distancing, and mask wearing are all quite safe.
The vaccines will allow us to get back to normal lives.
Indirectly. YWN needs to avoid antagonizing most of the “frum” establishment, and they favor going along with the politically correct position that Covid19 is an existential threat to society, and the vaccines are critical for survival. Almost all of their advertisers would be forced to withdraw if YWN did otherwise. If you clash with the “party line”, you get cancelled.
The issue with credibility on Covid19 (especially among frum Jews since we are radically younger than the rest of society, plus our “older than boomers” age group are diminished due to holocaust) is that our personal experience doesn’t reflect the horrendous plagues in the past. This is true of many goyim as well. In past epidemics, most children lost multiple playmates. People of working age were dying so fast that the economy was undermined. In past epidemics, the death rate rose by many multiples (e.g. a smallpox epidemic is 16th century America killed over 50% of the population), whereas with Covid19 the death rate rose by about one-sixth, killing about one in a thousand, and numerous people had Covid19 or were quarantined without getting seriously ill.
Had those in charge not overstated the seriousness of Covid19, and relied on facts and science rather than scare mongering, there wouldn’t have been any issues (there also wouldn’t have been any school closings, any bans on davening, any closing “non-essential” business, and no recession). The real danger is if there ever is a serious public health threat, it won’t be taken seriously.
Somehow, people who believe this kind of garbage never imagine that the “experts” who promote the conspiracy theories have their own vested interests.
>> is that our personal experience doesn’t reflect the horrendous plagues in the past.
Agree. There are 2 parts here:
1) pandemic is happening in the hospitals and nursing homes. you do not always see it. I heard a Rav on Zoom for several weeks (WITH a negative test but with a cough I never heard before), this made enough of an impression. That is why you need to use your math skills to evaluate reports of number of people dying and sick to understand something that is not in front of your eyes. There are lots of people who work with infectious diseases or radiation who are capable of keeping precautions without seeing a threat. Or you can talk to hatzolah people for their impressions.
2) numbers are indeed lower than under Bubonic plague. It is to a credit of humanity that we are taking measures to save lives of many of older and sicker people, and not behaving like Amalek.
Maybe this a double test Hashem sent us – first for our intellectual abilities and second for rahmanus. Maybe a final test before Maschiach comes?
In the above example, a person had a horrible cough but tested negative, but (adding my comments) it appears that due to the scare-mongering tactics the person (and/or friends and relations) freaked out believe he was dying. So instead of resting, drinking tea and chicken soup, and maybe getting a prescription cough medicine, he went to hospital taking up valuable resources and exposing himself to Covid19.
If this is the test before Maschiach comes, it seems that Ha-Shem has really given up on us and is dumbing down the test.
To be clear, because I know some people who have a different opinion than mine will immediately jump to conclusions, I am NOT anti-vax, and I dont believe YWN is promoting the vaccine for money. (The same way I dont think Rabbonim are promoting it for money…)
Now, Avrah, Hydroxychloroquine is a generic drug, nobody is making any money off that, whereas the Billions of dollars have been paid for the vaccines.
Charlie, we’ve had this argument before, the last we left off, I asked you a couple questions, you then disappeared from YWNCR for a couple weeks. I’ll copy paste my post #1910906 in thread https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/really-disappointing-clinical-trial-results
“Charlie it would be interesting to see you try and actually put forth a logical argument instead of touting your credentials. You try to discredit my arguments by stating I have no clinical experience(100% true). Your credentials are irrelevant; you can be fauci himself. It’s irrelevant because for one: all that I’ve said has been stated by medical experts, at least some(if not all) of whom have significantly more knowledge and experience with hydroxychloroquine. Secondly: you fail to present any counterargument whatsoever. You seem very confident that hydroxychloroquine has been debunked. I want to understand how an expert with his name on 180 scientific publications came to this conclusion. Id also assume you believe hydroxychloroquine is dangerous. If so please explain what led to that conclusion. Because all due respect, I have a feeling that the reason you refrain from actually debating is because you understand that the only thing you have is credentials; not facts. Just tell me if I’m wrong on that.
-explain to me how studies that used extremely high doses can used as proof hydroxychloroquine is dangerous when given in low dosage
-explain to me how studies performed on hospitalized patients can be used as proof hydroxychloroquine is ineffective when utilized in an outpatient setting
-explain to me how studies that exclude zinc can be as proof hydroxychloroquine is ineffective when given with zinc
These are not my questions. These questions can be attributed to many hundreds of doctors around the country. But you are the expert. Surely you can answer these questions with ease. I’ll wait patiently.”@akuperma In the USA alone between 1000 to 2000 people a day are dying from COVID-19. Comparatively, in a normal year there are about 100 deaths from the flu and about 150 from car accidents. COVID-19 is over ten times worse than the flu and car accidents combined. All the treatments in the world (Remedisvir, HCQ+Zinc, Vitamin D) have only had a negligible effect on that number. And that doesn’t even factor in all the serious, potentially permanent, health problems people suffered from after getting the virus.
So please don’t pretend that COVID-19 is some political game or something to scoff at. Did you not loose enough friends and family? Would you change your tune if Hashem took more people you knew to the Oilam Ha’Emes?
@torahvaluesoverparty You keep coming back to the same song and dance. You don’t trust expert opinion or the scientific process. So in your own mind HCQ+Zinc works and literally nothing can refute that because we are playing by rules of logic that you invented.
Let’s take one response that I keep pushing and am still waiting on you to comment. The Henry Ford Health System in Detroit promoted the use of HCQ+Zinc to treat COVID-19. They gave it to pre-symptomatic patients and patients who were already experiencing symptoms. They published papers on the results and collaborated on other HCQ studies. The results show that 5% less people were hospitalized when they took HCQ+Zinc. That’s good, but hardly fantastic. Promoting HCQ+Zinc as a vaccine alternative is incredibly dangerous.
“about 150 from car accidents.”
This didn’t sound right so i googled it.
Thete are not 150 car crash deaths per year in the US. The correct number is 38,000Tristate: For every news story (credited to source) they post on the news site related to recent developments in Covid vaccines, testing or treatment, there are probably 3 or 4 what I call heartbreaking about some rav or askan or poishete yid who died from covid. Do you think they are are getting “commissions” from the funeral homes, makers of the arons and even the chevrah kadishas???? I find your question totally offensive.
@syag-lchochma I don’t think my sentence was clear (grammar was a long time ago, me no speak English good no more). I meant about 150 fatalities in accidents per day compared to one to two thousand fatalities due to COVID per day.
Yserbius, in saying, “you don’t trust expert opinion or the scientific process”, you are completely gaslighting the issue, as there are hundreds, if not thousands, (if not tens of thousands) of doctors around the world that would agree with my view on HCQ. And I did respond, in the thread “https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/new-vid-w-zelenko”, post#1946074, I’ll copy paste-Still don’t know where you get the 5% number. On the henry ford study-“In a large-scale retrospective analysis of 2,541 patients hospitalized between March 10 and May 2, 2020 across the system’s six hospitals, the study found 13% of those treated with hydroxychloroquine alone died compared to 26.4% not treated with hydroxychloroquine. None of the patients had documented serious heart abnormalities; however, patients were monitored for a heart condition routinely pointed to as a reason to avoid the drug as a treatment for COVID-19.” yserbius, that’s not 5% less, that about 50% less. So yes, I responded to you, but none of my questions have been answered. I’ll wait very patiently.
@torahvaluesoverparty Let’s get one thing out of the way first.
HCQ+Zinc is not an alternative to vaccines. Even by the most optimistic reports, it’s far less effective and more prone to side effects than the vaccines. Despite what you may hear on WhatsApp, it’s not some miracle drug that evil politicians are trying to hide so that we’ll all die.
You have to read the entire article. The pertinent passage is this one:
“The study also found those treated with azithromycin alone or a combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin also fared slightly better than those not treated with the drugs, according to the Henry Ford data. The analysis found 22.4% of those treated only with azithromycin died, and 20.1% treated with a combination of azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine died, compared to 26.4% of patients dying who were not treated with either medication. ”
There’s a difference of 6.5% in deaths for patients treated with HCQ+Zinc or nothing at all. That directly contradicts your original statements that HCQ+Zinc is the effective medication. The Henry Ford Health System concluded that only HCQ alone in hospitalized patients is effective. Which is a questionable result since even by your own admission multiple other studies have shown that HCQ alone for symptomatic patients is only minimally effective.
Yserbius, are you even bothering to read what you are copy-pasting?? The 6.5% difference is between those treated with HCQ+AZ and those treated with nothing. (according to your post) No zinc here. Oh, and btw, Im pretty sure your math is off, from 26.4%, down to 20.1% would be a 23.9% reduction in death. And writing your statement in bold letters doesnt give it any more merit. Now, I never said HCQ is an alternative to the vaccine. Now that we have the vaccine, I think everyone that is at a somewhat risk, should take it. The vaccine is approx 95% effective. The doctors that have used HCQ in the way, and in the setting they said would be effective, have seen around 80-90% less death in the patients they treated compared to the rest of the population. But this is really irrelevant, what is really concerning me, is the unanswered questions i posted above. I may not have a PHD slapped next to my name, but I do have 2 brain cells to rub together.
I did not go to all these interesting references, but I want to confirm the math part:
26.4%, down to 20.1% would be a 23.9%.One question is what is uncertainty of the estimates.
You would also need to accept that there might not be a simple answer here: there are multiple variations to be tested: doses, early/late interventions, combinations, and it will take time to go through all of them at high confidence.
The question is how to act under uncertainty. The answer is to balance risk and reward.
I saw some articles that advocates several cocktails with multiple specific components, including hCQ, zinc, etc as long as they are relatively safe. Trying to uses and evaluate a cocktail together, instead of separate elements.
Not sure if this is a serious question or not
In the United States, approximate 1% (that’s roughly three million) people die every year. And the US death rate is lower than most economically advanced countries (not so much a function of health care as of higher fertility, since death rate is largely a function of age – that’s why Israel has a lower death rate than almost any advanced country).
Covid19 is little more than a “blip”. The US death rate, with Covid19 is still lower that many if not most countries before Covid19. And since overwhelmingly the fatalities are of people retired from work (press reporting of sensational exceptions not withstanding), there should not have been severe economic disruption except for serious government incompetence (blame Trump and Cuomo and all their colleagues – except for programs affecting senior citizens nothing should have been closed down and people should have been told not to panic).
@torahvaluesoverparty Ah yes, you are right. I mixed up Zinc with azithromycin. And I guess you can see a reduction from 26 to 20 as 20% and not 6%, that depends on how you read it.
My main issue is that people have been promoting HCQ+Zinc as some sort of miracle cure, despite the fact that the data on it shows a small benefit at best, and questionable in most accounts. A recent frum magazine took a reader poll as to whether people will take the vaccine and one common response was “I will just take HCQ”. I always pick the Henry Ford study for a few reasons. For one, it was a single study that directly contradicts several other studies so the data is a little questionable. Second, even the most optimistic reading of the data only shows a small benefit to taking HCQ. There’s a benefit, sure, it can help. But that doesn’t mean you can now have Chasunas of thousands or join a No Lives Matter rally without a mask.
yserbius, firstly, I will repeat, that in situations where the HCQ was given correctly (correctly defined as in the manner in which “pro-HCQ” said it should be given), those prescribing it saw 80-90% less death than the rest of the population. Low dose, with zinc and azithromycin, and pre-hospital. Your main issue shouldnt be some people touting it as a “miracle cure”, (which it may be), your main issue should be how my questions regarding HCQ have not been answered. Because if my questions cannot in fact be answered, then we may just have a genocide on our hands. A genocide perpetrated by people who value money and political gain over human life. Oh and btw, I dont know why HCQ has to be labeled a “miracle cure”, thereby portraying those who advocate for its use, as nutjobs. Yes, we have many “miracle cures”, for many diseases, and if HCQ works, it works. Not more of a “miracle” than any other medicine.
@torahvaluesoverparty No scientific study shows a 80-90% reduction in deaths after taking HCQ. That’s narischkeit. There are questionable anecdotes where some doctors claimed to have seen those numbers, but they aren’t backed by hard data. The accusation that there’s some sort of grand conspiracy preventing doctors from talking about a potential cure for COVID-19 is utterly insane.
You’re right. It’s not a miracle cure. It’s not even a cure. It’s merely one of many treatments doctors have been trying to use to stop COVID-19 over the last year.
You are right that there are no complete golden standard studies showing such, however, at the same time there were no golden standard studies performed (correctly) at all. Which begs the question. Why not. You say, “The accusation that there’s some sort of grand conspiracy preventing doctors from talking about a potential cure for COVID-19 is utterly insane.” If it’s utterly insane, then my questions should be easily answered. I’ve been looking for answers for almost a year. I’ve asked for them to be answered here, in YWNCR, but all I’ve heard is crickets.
Here is an exercise:
there was early report from a French hospital that smokers in that hospital are surviving COVID better than the others. Numbers were pretty clear.
Now, we have smoking as one of diseases that gives a priority to get a vaccine.question: what was wrong with that French hospital result? Drink a little and think about it.
But I’ll no B go sup Al go on I’ll go Sygic tov up lib voch go gold from gold yom go X go
Um sorry not sure who wrote maybe me on purim, why did mods allow?!!
Why not?
Why not, indeed.
It was no less coherent than some other posts…
@torahvaluesoverparty There were multiple studies on the effectiveness of HCQ. I believe when you say that there were no “golden standard studies performed correctly” is that there were no studies where HCQ and Zinc were given to pre-symptomatic patients. But there were studies on pre-symptomatic patients, and there were studies with Zinc.
That is not a golden standard, that is goalpost movement. If the preliminary studies showed no effect or only a small effect, there’s no reason to believe that changing some of the parameters should suddenly have a drastic change in the results. So far the only “evidence” that HCQ+Zinc is some fantastic miracle cure that could have prevented millions of deaths is a doctor’s open letter to Trump posted to YouTube. No data, no numbers, no studies, and no reason to pursue it further.
I was hospitalized with Covid-19 for a week in the end of March, 2020. While not the worst case, mine was pretty serious, and included pneumonia. My treatment included both HCQ and Remdesivir (both were first administered in the hospital). BH, I fully recovered within two months.
Does this prove anything about the effectiveness of either one of these medicines (or their combination) in treating Covid-19?Anecdotal evidence is absolutely useless in establishing the efficacy of a specific treatment.
Yserbius, what are talking about? Firstly, as Ive said many times, from Dr Harvey Risch, nearly half of cancer treatments never underwent the golden standard double blind trials. (No, i cant verify that myself, but I’d assume he’s telling the truth on that, being thats it’s presumably easy to verify for any doctor or expert.) So no, thats not moving the goalpost. But in reality, this is irrelevant, because even if you are to tell that it IS necessary for the Golden standard trials, WHY HAVENT THEY BEEN PREFORMED?? You say it has? Then show me. Show me the study that utilized the Zelenko protocol correctly. There were abolutely 0 preminary studies that showed the Zelenko protocol ineffective. 0. I’ll leave this link https://www
DOT sciencedirect DOT com/science/article/pii/S0924857920304258?via%3Dihub
Catch yourself-I’ll say with a fair amount of confidence that the HCQ had nothing to do with you recovery. HCQ was never promoted to be given in your situation. But imagine this. Imagine, BEFORE you were hospitalized, your didnt just take HCQ, but you took it in accordance with the Zelenko protocol. You didnt recover 2 months later, rather you recovered 6 hrs later. Would you maybe then connect the dots? Because this counterargument that many have used, that “people recover after drinking a cup of water”(meaning to say that there is no evidence HCQ helped the recovery) is faulty. Because yes, people do recover with no treatment. But do any of you know anyone that reached the point of fever, and shortness of breath, and were symptom free hours later? The only ones ive heard of, are those who’ve used the Zelenko protocol. At the end of the day, my questions have gone unanswered.
-how studies that used extremely high doses can used as proof hydroxychloroquine is dangerous when given in low dosage.
-how studies performed on hospitalized patients can be used as proof hydroxychloroquine is ineffective when utilized in an outpatient setting
-how studies that exclude zinc can be as proof hydroxychloroquine is ineffective when given with zinc.
-Why there hasnt been any golden standard studies preformed by fauci and co., that used the Zelenko protocol.
-How a completely fraudulent study was allowed to be published in the Lancet and NEJM. (this was the study that caused many trials around the world to be paused, and never resumed.)“On the henry ford study”
The Henry Ford study was an observational study. The clinical trials did not show the same results. There are many other examples where observational studies have been confirmed by clinical trials. The reason is simple: even the best observational study cannot control for unmeasured confounding.
Get vaccinated. Even Trump did.
“there were no golden standard studies performed (correctly) at all”
That is a lie.
> nearly half of cancer treatments never underwent the golden standard double blind trials.
I googled for this phrase, and seems that missing part is “emergency authorizations” or something like that. I agree, in general, that in emergency we should be relying more on observational studies, especially when safety risks are small. Performing small blinded studies could compliment this.
The issue is also confounded with a need to consider multiple settings – who to give, when to give, etc, as discussed above. Note that A-Z Phase 3 was almost derailed by a simple fact that there were two different doses. Uncertainty of interpreting multiple arms is harder. You can’t just say “HCQ+zin given at day X” worked, when you went through 100 different combinations – as your success is a random result out of 100.
Note that this is still science, just harder science than blinded tests. One type of such math is called “multi armed bandits” (as in Vegas): you run multiple arms and estimate two things – possible effect and remaining level of uncertainty. Sometimes you want to explore more of arms that have more uncertainty even if they did not show sufficient result yet.
@torahvaluesoverparty Ah. I stand corrected. I was unaware that the findings from Kiryas Yoel had been published. Still I’m skeptical about the paper. The man spent nearly a year reporting in the bizarre and unproffesional fashion of posting videos to YouTube and only now publishes a paper? Looking in to it, it seems as if the journal it was published in is connected with Didier Raoult, the guy who started promoting HCQ. Which makes me take the paper with a grain of salt. Also, it seems like this is what @charliehall called an observational study which isn’t as firm as clinical findings.
You keep getting back to the question of why don’t they research it. I think a better question should be why this should be researched. To be frank, there’s only a small handful of doctors and researchers that are claiming amazing results with HCQ+Zinc they are all a little non-mainstream, so to speak. There’s little reason to listen to them over a thousand other miracle cure claims that various other people have been touting throughout the past year. I’ve heard everything is a cure or prevention for COVID, from polio vaccines to some obscure dietary supplement. I don’t think you’ll find people willing to put in the time and effort to research things that have very little chance of working.
Charlie, that’s all you got?? At least tell me WHY it’s a lie…refer me to the study that was conducted in the way those who promoted it wanted it to be conducted. I’ve been looking far and wide…
Yserbius, exactly what is he supposed to do when he is being shut down by the medical establishment? It takes time for these papers to be published, I think we understand that. And you do realize that Didier Raoult was always considered a huge expert in the field, I believe he has his name on thousands of papers, he was only mocked and ridiculed when he dared to promote the life saving drug.
Now, the drug WAS researched. It was researched because of its inherent properties. The problem starts when you give the patient 5x the recommended dose, then claim it’s “dangerous” when things go wrong. You can decide not to take anything out of thousands of patients dying at a 90% lower rate, but the fact that my questions cannot be answered is pretty darn problematic. If hundreds of doctors around the country, and thousands around the world say that they’ve tried the polio vaccine, and had huge success with it, then we absolutely should look into it. Doctors have promoted other things to help with covid, no one claimed them to be a miracle cures.I think torahvaluesoverparty makes some good points which have not adequately been answered.
I have heard of several cases of people receiving HCQ and zinc and having quick recoveries. I’m not a medical professional, but my physician told me that the studies absolutely did not disprove HCQ’s efficacy.
(Still, anyone using the availability of HCQ or Ivermectin as an excuse to not vaccinate is just scared of the vaccine.)
At this point in time, I think the treatment of choice for a newly diagnosed case of Covid-19 is the monoclonal antibodies infusion, but I do think there’s reason to believe that HCQ if given properly could have saved many lives.
It doesn’t take a year to go from initial findings to a published paper. It can be done in weeks, as we’ve seen by the thousand thousand other papers published on COVID. And Dr. Raoult benefited from its publication so the paper being in a journal connected to him casts suspicion on how emesdik it is.
HCQ was exhaustively researched in mid-2020 as a possible COVID cure. Various different formulas and mixtures. Very few doctors saw anything more than a small bump. So you can’t claim that this one or two small parameter was what they were missing to go from a few people cured to 90% cured. It just makes no sense. Your claim of “thousands around the world” is also narischkeit I believe. I don’t think there were more than a handful of doctors and institutions trying out HCQ cocktails with any sincerity.
DY, thank you
Yserbius, im not a doctor, i dont know your credentials, I do know Dr Zelenko released some preliminary papers early on, and kind of “upgraded” them as time went on. I have no clue what point your trying to make here. You vaguely state “HCQ was exhaustively researched in mid-2020 as a possible COVID cure. Various different formulas and mixtures”, your just not saying anything legitimate here. Yes, I know “HCQ was exhaustively researched”, it was researched on hospitalized patients, it was tried in extremely high dosage, it was tried w/o the correct complimentary drugs, ect… My point was it was never tried (by the medical establishment) in low dosage, with the correct accompanying drugs, and in the outpatient setting. There was a survey conducted in the last summer by Sermo, that true, was misinterpreted by many, but even after the “fact-check” was complete, found, (if im understanding correctly) 37% of doctors out of 2171 respondents, rated HCQ the most effective treatment. Now apply that 37% on a larger scale….
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