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I think the answer is yes and no. In theory, the army wants more soldiers. However, the Charedim based on various reasons, do not make the best soldiers, and has reportedly rejected those Charedi applications. Instead, the army is relying more heavily on the existing soldiers to meet the needs of the war and protecting Klal Yisroel.
What does this mean for the Charedi responsibility to join the army? It depends on why one understands they should join the army in the first place. If it’s because of Milchemes Mitzvah, then it seems like those who were rejected, tried and therefore fulfilled their obligation. If it’s because of pikuach nefesh, again maybe one can argue they tried and were rejected, and are therefore yotzei.
But I think think there is a more important reason why Charedim should join the army, and that’s based on a fundamental principle of the Torah as expressed by both Hillel and R’ Akiva- love your fellow like yourself, and don’t do to other what you don’t want done to you. The chayalim are risking their lives and sacrificing their health, well being, families, businesses, parnassah, and (in the case of religious soldiers) Torah. Because of the lack of manpower, the IDF is relying more heavily on the existing soldiers forcing them to sacrifice more and more. I assume most Charedim would not want to sacrifice that much knowing that if others would be willing to share the burden, it would ease their own. And I would argue that it’s this foundational principle that Hillel calls “is the entire Torah” is reason for Charedim to work on themselves, to get in shape, to make themselves worthy to be soldiers in order to lessen the burden on their fellow Jew, as they would want others to do for them.
(And I don’t think that arguing, “well the Charedim sacrifice to learn on behalf of those who don’t. Aren’t they bearing that burden? Shouldn’t we demand more people learn to ease that burden?” I’m not entirely sure that’s a strong argument. If more people were learning, would the Charedim learn less? Would that “ease their burden” of Torah? Presumably not. Charedim learn because learning is life. It’s because they understand that’s what is best for them and the best way to serve God. It ALSO has benefits for Klal Yisroel as a whole, but that doesn’t seem to be the main motivating factor. I hope this point doesn’t derail the larger point that I’m trying to argue.)
In the words of a popular blogger: “It might be easier for the IDF to increase the burden on everyone else rather than draft Charedim, but it’s not easier for everyone else. There’s no getting around the importance of shared responsibility.”
The IDF is long notorious for znus.
The IDF does not need additional soldiers. They aren’t short personnel.
Simcha, this is very confusing. Melech Dovid was able to gather an army. Was it not “charedi” enough for you? Torah is not calling on us to wear certain clothes and eat gefilte fish. It has various mitzvos and our job is to analyze when they are applicable and act when necessary. Whatever social and psychological issues are there, they should not be an excuse to not follow Torah. I am not saying that there is a definite answer to serious questions, just that excuses are not relevant.
And for sure, one cannot claim an exemption as a ” T Ch” if he has issues that prevent him from considering his options under Torah. This is like killing the parents and asking for rachmonus as an yasom.
Combat roles are not the only option for serving in the IDF.
There are also important roles in: feeding soldiers,
distributing supplies to soldiers, helping the injured,
listening to enemy communications, and Cyber Security.These non-combat roles could be filled by
Charedim who are not in yeshivah.====================================
Tractate Sanhedrin, page 72A:
“If you see someone coming to kill you, then arise and kill him first.”In our times, Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran are obviously
coming to kill Jews, mostly in Eretz HaKodesh,
but also in other places, like the Iranian-back bombing
of the Jewish Community Center in Argentina in the 1990s.Therefore, we are not merely permitted to
kill Hamas and Hezbollah before they kill more Jews;
we are obligated to do so, the same way we are
obligated to wear tefillin shel yad and tefillin shel rosh.Indeed, tzahal may not be short on soldiers right now, but they are limited how long they can keep people away from their civilian jobs. So helping with those jobs should also be an option.
Israeli here; IDF does not want Chareidim, nor does it really want the Mizrachnikim. They are incompatible with the ethos of the IDF and do not share its vision. They will never be generals and upper brass. On the other hand, it IS unfair that the chilonim need to shoulder the entire burden.
In addition, the army is also tasked with creating a homogenized society, making everyone into the typical Israeli. The Chareidim – perhaps rightly so – consider this an existential threat, and cannot serve in such an army. Indeed, the degree where army participation and rank form the self-image of the soldiers here is out of all proportion to their actual service. A soldier has grater cache than a doctor, even though the doctor may save ten lives a day.
The answer – to most people – is that the army needs to be totally reformed. It might not be a bad idea to do it right after this war, where the army leaders were caught so clueless and unaware. It certainly looks like Hashem is making things happen here in Israel!
Yes, in the same way the Russians wanted Jewish yingelach as cantonists
@leibdik yankel: IDF does not want Chareidim, nor does it really want the Mizrachnikim?
… they will never be generals?Actually, the IDF VERY MUCH wants “Mizrachinikim.”
“Mizrachinikim” constitute a very significant percentage of IF combat officers and commanders, far out of proportion to their representation in the general population.
And “Mizrachinikim” constitute a way above proportion of those serving in combat roles.
The army very much wants these soldiers and depends upon them.Yes, it’s true that “Mizrochinikim” have not made it to the very upper echelons, there have been several “Mizrochinik” generals and many, many very-high-ranking officers, especially in combat units.
As for haredim, that situation is not at all akin to that of “Mizrochinikim” but more to how they make use of soldiers at low levels of physical fitness, self-discipline, and motivation. They do make use of them, but “Mizrochinikim” are generally not in this category.
There are reservists who are being called up repeatedly and staying longer because of the shortage of staff.
It is literally a lie to fall back on the canard that “The IDF has enough”.
uno: They can manage well calling up the reservists as needed, including a second tour if necessary. As such, given that need it’s fulfilled successfully in that manner, they do not need additional personnel. The IDF are well staffed.
And even the necessity of recalling reservists in this manner is only necessary in times of a major war such as this. Even that much wasn’t necessary for many decades until Oct. 7.
@Shlomo 2 – you are correct. The army does want chareidim as they do Mizrachnikim, which is, as cannon fodder. Not as equals sharing the burden (and perks) but as useful sacrifices. As for the physical fitness, motivation and other jokes, visit Tel Aviv sometime and tell me if you really think the average chiloni is in better condition – both physically and emotionally – than the average chareidi. Yes, the chareidi will need conditioning before sent into combat, but who doesn’t?
The ,home issue is a cynical political gambit by corrupt Israeli politicians looking to עורבא פרח the idiot Israeli pop. from the abysmal failure and lack of answers they have for serious existential Q’s facing the nation
Shame on all the idiots who fall for this sinas chinam. They are bringing on more APC fires and deaths on those they supposedly love and care about.
אם ה’ לא ישמור עיר שוא שקד שומר
And you are removing His guardianship with this nonsense.The beis din of Jerusalem recently rereleased the longstanding psak forbidding the joining IDF for and G-d-fearing Jews, confirming its application in the current situation. Until another beis din of similar stature (that was not put in chrem… kookies) issues challenges it with a different psak (which seems obvious not going to happen, as current ban follows basic longstanding halacha), this whole conversation is a mute point, and it is a shame some many people spread confusion with comments about pikiyach nayfesh and milchemes mitzveh and being “migalei panim l’torah lo k’halucheh”
Somehow Torah counts Jews in BMibbar as those who are “yetze tzava” (other than sheves Levi).
Simcha: Every country, including Israel, exempts multiple classes of people in society. Including, but not limited to, judges, elected politicians, legislators (MKs), university students/educators, certain entertainers, journalists, conscience objectors, Arab Israeli citizens, etc.
Those who learn Torah are more qualified for an exemption than any and all of the above.
Especially as we all agree that the army is not short personnel, as they are demonstrating today in the current war they are not suffering losses due to a lack of soldiers. It’s well known that the IDF has long had too many people, not too few.
Does the IDF want Chareidim? Unequivocally yes. The IDF needs people, period – they’re in the process of opening up new units as we speak, and needs people to staff those units. If Chareidim are able to fill those roles, the IDF very much wants them in the mix.
There are certain logistical issues with respect to Chareidi service that need to be addressed – and the IDF is very willing to do so. This ranges from male-only units and bases to specific standards of Kashrus – but the Chareidi community needs to engage on this to make it happen.
There are those who, for purported or real ideological reasons, will not serve. This includes those who follow the Eida haChareidis and refuse government benefits as well as army service – and while I do not agree with their view, I acknowledge that they are at least internally consistent. UJM and others that purport to follow their views, though, are mere trolls and kefuyei tova – and seem to somehow ignore the Rambam and Rema on what is required when someone attempts to harm Jews. Then you have those above like Leibidik Yankel and BY1212, who spout flat-out non-truths about what the army and government want.
I was at three Levayos yesterday for 21-year-old Bnei Yeshivos who gave their lives to protect Klal Yisrael. They were killed along with five other soldiers – four non-Bnei Yeshiva Jews and one Druze. The army did not send them to the front lines because they were “mizrochnik” Bnei Yeshiva – they were in combat because they felt an Achrayus to protect Klal Yisrael. As one of the fathers said, his son told him “If I don’t do it, who will”? It’s not that he did not want to stay and sit in Yeshiva – it’s that he saw that he had an achrayus to the Tzibur, and did not shirk his responsibility.
Saying the IDF needs to work on accomodating Chareidi sensibilities is legitimate. Coming up with ever-changing excuses as to why Chareidim should not serve is not.
an Israeli Yid
> Those who learn Torah are more qualified for an exemption than any and all of the above.
this is very crum. We had a number of people here voicing their arguments or the rabbis they listen to. The refuseniks include not just lomdei Torah at any reasonable cutoof reason, but anybody who is willing to follow these communities. This is, in effect, catch-22: evil Zs do not listen to our B’D – but if they suddenly listen to us, then everyone will be exempt.
Think, Torah asks us to dedicate 1 day a week fully away from the world. Would it be OK to extend Shabbos by a couple of hours? seems to be OK. How about keep Shabbos 3-4 days a week? Does not make sense, right? This is not what Hashem intended. Same, sheves Levi was exempt, so say 10% of population could be exempt (plus those under 20 and over 60 who can learn full time). So, now about 50% of Israeli Jewish population are shomer shabbos and, B’H, growing. So, distribute this 10% exemption between these whole 50% of population, compensate the rest with college exemptions and establish a strong sheves Levi that is supported by the whole am isroel, instead of current unfortunate bizayon Torah.
Some keep repeating the mantra that “the IDF does not need more personnel”. Well, that is contrary to what the IDF itself has said repeatedly with respect long-term staffing needs. The need for increased numbers in border security alone in both Gaza and the North will increase exponentially, even after whatever “cease-fire” is negotiated and the burden on reservists and their has increased to a breaking point in many cases.
Individual IDF leaders have stated that it would be difficult to make the significant cultural and operational changes needed to accommodate Charedi recruits during the war but all the senior IDF leadership and former leaders have consistently said it is essential to immediately begin the process of integrating the fastest growing segment of the population into the national security program in some capacity.I once spoke to a yeshiva bachur who was planning to enter the IDF and join an officer’s program.
When I warned him about the spiritual dangers he would be facing, he replied, “You don’t even know how right you are. When I applied, they told me, ‘You know, of course, that the mattress you will be receiving is accompanied by a female soldier!'”
But he went to the army anyway, and became non-religious.@ujm – your statement that “Every country, including Israel, exempts multiple classes of people in society. Including, but not limited to, judges, elected politicians, legislators (MKs), university students/educators, certain entertainers, journalists, conscience objectors, Arab Israeli citizens, etc.” is just not accurate. There have been numerous cases of judges and politicians being called up, and universities have had to make accomodations for the massive numbers of students and instructors that were or still are in Miluim. Entertainers and journalists have also been called up, and have been both injured and killed in the war. Conscientious objectors get called – and generally end up in jail if they refuse to serve.
There is an exemption for Arabs – something given due to the fact that it was considered unwise to force them into a situation where they’d potentially be fighting close relatives. There are a number, though, who volunteer and serve.
If you’re going to try to make a point, you need to use facts – not fiction that can be easily disproven by anyone doing a bit of searching on line.
an Israeli Yid
aIY: I did not say that *all* of the members of the classes I cited are exempt; but certainly some members are exempt for being a member of the named class.
And if I erroneously included a class, the point still remains regarding the others.
No, the IDF doesn’t want charedim. Because, and let’s be honest with ourselves, no one does.
to An Israeli Yid:
I understand you are angry with me. I spout falsehoods, while you speak the unvarnished truth. Perhaps.
However I will say that I wrote those lines while in shock after attending a wedding of modern religious Israeli family, and seeming the role the army played at the wedding. So I spoke not out of internet searches and so on, but personal experience. I was quite broken up to see it. I am no radical. but I do not think the IDF is presently suitable for our youth, I do apologize.lebidik, there is a teshuva from R Moshe regarding going to a medical school. I hope I recall this correctly. He seems to say that a doctor needs to go to the best school and then deal with difficulties of being shomer shabbos (presumably, problems are solvable just require an effort), rather than go to a shver school that is accommodating, so that one is the best doctor he can be. Can you apply same logic to IDF? If there is a need to go there – go and at the same time deal with challenges and help soldiers to overcome them. Send packages with mehadrin food. Post Rabbis who give classes on tzniyut. Whatever it takes.
AAQ: Totally reasonable and logical which means everyone will find some way to oppose. At some point, Chareidim will be forced to participate in public service at some level, whether in the IDF or other roles. Rather than participating through their MKs in helping to structure a program that reflects their concerns, they simply scream no which means their yungerleit will ultimately dragged into service that will be much more challenging than if they had actively participated in developing an alternative service program.
Gadol, if we were to have thousands of ehrliche Talmidei Chachomim learning day 7 night, I personally will be happy to support such a system. But as we see in this and other examples, the participants in this system show questionable middos and lomdus when confronted with life issues, so we are not there yet, unfortunately… hopefully, those who were born & raised into such views, will see from these threads how convoluted and self-contradicting these defenses are when exposed to a discussion, and re-think.
I think Chareidim ought to serve. I’m not against it in principle at all.
The idea that Chareidim are willing to go, en masse, to prison rather than the IDF isn’t just an empty threat; it is the reality.
The Zionists need to choose between quadrupling their prison population or the status quo.
great, so they can guard the terrorists. Maybe teach them mitzvos bnei Noyach.
The IDF doesn’t want Chareidim and Chareidim don’t want the IDF. It is a mutually beneficial non-relationship.
The only agitators demanding change are the antisemites (some of whom even wear a kippa) who hate Chareidim and want to de-Chareidicize them by forcing them into the army melting pot to secularize them; much like 50% of the daati leumis who join the IDF by time they are discharged are no longer religious.
> The IDF doesn’t want Chareidim
Rather than looking for krum self-serving arguments, just think about it, taking your statement at face value. You are in effect saying that your community is so crooked or lame that the army defending Yidden in EY does not want your help. It is like rain during Sukkos is compared to a master throwing water at the servant, saying “do not want your service”. So, Army can train Ethiopian or Russian olim who are clueless about modern life or Judaism, but has hard time integrating people who supposedly learned middos, Torah, and maasim tovim? Requires some soul searching.
The idea that Chareidim are willing to go, en masse, to prison rather than the IDF isn’t just an empty threat; it is the reality.
So round them up and stuff them into prisons in the Negev, feed them slop (with good hashgacha, of course) and put them to work in prison jobs manufacturing license plates or whatever the IDF needs. That is their choice and they understand that for those who engage in civil disobedience, there are likely to be consequences.
The systems cannot survive where the fastest growing segment of the population decides to send everyone else to risk their lives to defend the country while they are paid stipends to stay at home and hide under their shtenders when the air raid sirens go off.
I have been told that miluim recently increased the time required for reservist to serve. That indicates that yes more manpower is needed. How can anyone tell a family with a working father who leaves his business or employment for weeks on end (not to mention the extreme danger involved) that the army only wants him but not his neighbor? Apparently yes, if some element of the chareidim would join the army the burden would be less on other elements of society including the drum society. Arguments that the army is not a place suitable for a frum person so not negate the fact that the chareidim are needed.
Rocky is correct. The Knesset today rushed through an emergency law that would extend the increased age limits for hundreds of thousands of Reservists that was enacted right after the Hamas attack in October 2023. The Defense Ministry claimed that higher age limit was needed to keep reservists on active duty because of a critical shortage of personnel. At the same time, the disgusting hypocrisy of the Netanyahu coalition is that they will try again later this week to enact the law that would continue to exempt most Chareidi yungerleit from having to enlist.
The USA long ago abandoned the conscript army because ill-motivated conscripts performed poorly. Drafting a bunch of yeshiva students raised on tziyoinistim yemach shemam will not be an effective force.
Not debating the pros and cons, just making a practical point.
Lernt: The Zionists know as well as anyone else that a volunteer army, like the US Army, is much better than a forcibly/unwanted drafted enlistees. But the Zionists built their army to first, and foremost, be a “melting pot” to turn all recruits into Zionist ideology subscribers, including secularization more than anything else.
If they don’t forcibly draft, many non-Zionists will remain non-Zionists. And nothing can be worse than that, from the Zionist government’s perspective.
This quote is from a recent article on Matzav (dot) com:
====================================“The President and Founder of United Hatzalah, Eli Beer,
has offered his solution to the Charedi draft crisis
inflaming Israeli society: Charedi men should serve
2-3 years of mandatory civil service as EMTs and
paramedics, along with other vital civil service roles.By serving in organizations like Hatzalah, [Eli] Beer
suggests that Charedim can help alleviate the need
for more Hatzalah volunteers and armed volunteers,
while remaining in an environment that they do not feel
could put their Charedi lifestyle in jeopardy.”SOURCE: Eli Beer Proposes Solution to the Charedi Draft Crisis
by Matzav (dot) com 2024 June 27NOTE: EMT means “Emergency Medical Technician”.
Let Eli Beer stick to first aid, which he knows, rather than opine on subjects outside his expertise.
Joseph,
Eli Beer “knows” first aid but what do you know? You’re an ignoramus and a total failure in Torah, career, relationships and life. You’re the scourge of this site and only “know” how to cut down other Jews. You have zero expertise in anything so take your own advice stop opining, period. Go crawl back under the rock you slithered out of, you vile slug.
This sounds like a great solution, It will also make them visible to other population who will appreciate the service and prepare them for jobs in medical field.
Rabbi Pini Dunner said:
“It is an open secret that out of the 12,000 annual exemptions,
over half do not meet the standards of full-time Torah study,
or even close.”SOURCE: article titled: Haredi and Secular Jews Must All
Serve the Israeli Nation and Find Purpose Together
by Rabbi Pini Dunner 2024/06/28 on algemeiner (dot) comThis quote is from Yehuda Dov for VIN News:
“A Defense Ministry committee which recently surveyed
Charedi youth claimed that a large proportion of them
could be drafted, since 13% are not studying and not working,
39% are working, 19% are working and learning
and only 29% are exclusively studying Torah.”SOURCE: IDF Gathering Info About Working Charedim
Prior To Sending 3000 Draft Notices by Yehuda Dov
2024 July 3 from www dot VINNews dot comCross-Currents is left-wing (religiously, not politically) trash.
Yes, Torah Jews do see themselves apart from the rest of the non-Torah nation. Correctly so. And that will not change no matter how much the anti-Torah crowd stamps their feet.
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