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Regarding Aharon HaKohein: Trimmed, yes. Cut/Shave/Remove/Destroy, no.
The issue here seems to be that a number of well meaning, sincere posters believe it is possible there is Gemora or medrash that they know, or know better, than Rav Chaim.
I believe if you will look in Likutei Halachos to Makos, third perek, you will find the information as I presented it. I am unfamiliar with Tiferes Adam and likewise unfamiliar with the focus of the sefer or the nuances and context of language used.
@5ish – You yourself quote from Rav Chaim, in the name ofbthe Chofetz Chaim (Likutei Halachos), that he refers to the machines of his day (not to scissors).
@RebbetzinGoldenpickanicerscreenname – Excellent posts. Good points. Great observations. Wonderful and clear presentation. Thank you.
@5ish – The source from which you quote clearly says that the Tiferes Adam recommends not using even scissors for (1) Kabbolistic reasons, and (2) because shaving with a razor has become so prevalent. NOT because he held it was assur min ha’Torah or even midRabbonon.
RGP
As I commented earlier
It’s important to understand not just to have a good search engine.
Do you know what it means אין מורידין למי שלא נתמלא זקנו ????
It’s talking about the AGE of the ש”ץ
See the מ”ב and ביאור הלכה where you yourself pulled quotes from!!
ו- אין ממנים אלא מי שנתמלא זקנו כו’ אבל באקראי *** משהביא שתי שערות יוכל לירד***
ביאור הלכה – באמצע דברו – ”כשאנו יודעים לפי ענין המקום שבכל השנה לא יזדמן להם ש”ץ קבוע שנתמלא זקנו לכן מותר לענות *** לבן י”ג *** אפילו בקבע
How on earth did ”a 13 year old ” become the counter balance to someone with a beard???
He should have said , if you know you won’t be able to get someone with a beard you can take someone without!!
But no. The point is it’s not כבוד הציבור to have a young whippersnapper be the ש”ץ but In a desperate situation you can do it.
More.
That’s all the talk about רמב”ם ופריסת שמע because a קטן can be פורס על שמע so the רמבם points out that that does not extend at all to becoming a ש”ץ for which it’s not enough to just be 13.
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שו”ע סעיף ח
מי שאינו בעל זקן, כל שניכר בו שהגיע לכלל שנים שראו להתמלאות זקנו, נתמלא זקנו קרינן ביה. הילכך בן כ שנה אע”פ שאין לו זקן ממנים אותוובסעיף כ מדבר בענין הסריס
So it’s clear we not talking about a סריס .
We are clearly being told that as long as he is of age that most people have beards and he is not a סריס it’s fully OK to appoint him even though he does not have a beard.
רמ”א -וכן אם היה לו זקן אפילו מעט -קרינן ביה נתמלא זקנו אם הוא מבן יח ולמעלהAgain the focus on AGE
and seemingly one who shaves, as long as the stubble is evident (as it is with almost anyone who doesn’t use cream or a razor) ,according to the רמ”א is perfectly fine
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מחבר סעיף י
יש ללמוד זכות על מקומות שנונים שהקטנים יורדים לפני התיבה להתפלל במוצאי שבת כוAgain issue is קטן
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In סימן תקעט he does not mention a word about a beard
Presumably because he said someone with small children, so that already shows he is not a קטן
And one more
סימן תקפא סעיף א רמ”א
וידקדקו לחזור אחר ש”ץ היותר הגון והיותר גדול כו’ושיהא בן שלושים שנה גם שיהא נשוי
Noplace mentioning a word about a beard while listing everything to look for for a ש”ץ for ימים נוראים but strangely coming up with a thirty year old being a מעלה.
Except when you realize that all along זקנו מגודל was an age threshold and for ימים נוראים we look for someone older. It all makes sense.היצא מכל הנ”ל
Noplace in שו”ע does it say someone without a beard can’t Daven by the amud.I beg the mods
Please let this post through
I sent a lot of time on it because you have someone masquerading as a תלמוד חכם who really has no idea what he is talking about. He just pulls quotes from a search engine and is ממש making a mockery of תורתינו הקדושה והטהורהAs I said before
Troll all you want. Enjoy yourself
It’s fun and harmless
Until you start to misrepresent the רבש”ע ‘ס תורהYou have just proved the words of the Magen Avraham אין חכמה לאשה why a woman should not learn genora as also indicated by the klugeryid. It says על פי שנים עדים יקום דבר where two posters tell you that you are incorrect.
Rav Chaim Kanievsky endorsed the publication of a kuntris with quotations from Maran HaRav Shteinman zt’l regarding the beard and shaving and why it was accepted in Litvishe yeshivos to shave (as he did himself). Following is an excerpt from quotations from Rav Shteinman:
Maran HaRav Shteinman zt’l was asked by a number of yeshiva bochurim: “The rest of the bochurim in my yeshiva do not grow their beards. Should I follow their example or not?”
To each of them he replied that they should disregard their colleagues’ conduct.
To one bochur he quoted the Mishna in Ediyos (5:6): “Better to be called a shoteh your entire life than to be a rasha even once.”
To another he responded even more sharply:“If everyone around you is eating chazir, is that a reason for you to eat it as well?!”
To a third he said: “No one ever lost anything from growing a beard!”
Maran HaRav Shteinman was once approached by a bochur who followed the opinion of the Mechaber, that one may cut his hair between Lag Ba’Omer and Shavuos. “Most of the bochurim in my yeshiva do
not cut their hair until the yemei hagbalah,” he said. “Since I follow the Mechaber’s opinion, may I shave my beard before that time?”
“Any method you use to shave your beard will be problematic,”
Maran HaRav Shteinman replied. “Using an electric shaver may involve an issur de’oraysa. Even using shaving cream is not acceptable, as some say this involves the issur of lo yilbash.”
Some claim that growing a beard demonstrates arrogance, as if he thinks he is perfect.
“It is still better to grow a beard,” Maran HaRav Shteinman once commented. “This will protect a person spiritually to a certain extent.”
Maran HaRav Shteinman further remarked:“The reason it was once common for yeshiva bochurim to shave is because the issur involved was not widely known.”
פרי חיים ממרן הרב שטיינמן זצוק״ל, שופר ארגון להפצת יהדות, צוות שופר גנזי המלך, כ”ו תמוז תשע”בWhen two people say someone is drunk, he should lie down.
“Pronouncements are made in Shulchan Oruch, as specifically choosing a chazzon WITH A BEARD”
And, the meforshim clarify that this means anyone past the age at which men usually grow beards, including anyone who happens to be unable to grow a beard (eg. the late Kaliver Rebbe).
As for my “envy.” I’m not envious. I’m sort of impressed actually. But, theoretically, there could be less learned people here, and I think they should realize the truth so that you don’t trick them. As a side note, glad to see your trolling career has forced you to look into the Mishnah Berurah. That’s something most Lubavitchers wouldn’t do.
Kluger/Las
Gam Ani Miztarif Umcham, well said!
Mir,
““The reason it was once common for yeshiva bochurim to shave is because the issur involved was not widely known.””
I doubt the quote is accurate.
Anyone should just search ‘google images’ for “Kollel Kovno” you will clearly see — they all went shaved.FYI – Kollel Kovno was made up from major Talmidei Chachamim, one of them is Hg’ Rav Aaron Kotler (as seen there shaved). Same when you search “Rav Shneur Kotler” as a yungerman he was cleaned shaved, I doubt Rav Ahron would allowed him to, if its indeed an issue as above.
Same when you search for the ‘Chafetz Chaim”, you will see the Bnei Torah surrounding him were all shaved (I’m referring to the picture of him sitting in front of his house in Radin). Same situation when searching “Rav Baruch Ber” the Talmidim are all shaved.
Asides that, Rav Chaim K Shlita goes by the psak of the Chazon Ish (as with all), whereas, Rav Moshe Feinstein disagreed. so if one goes by Rav Moshe’s psokim, he certainly has Al Mi Lismoch…
I’m not sure if this is accurate but I’ve heard that when clean shaven Chassidishe bachurim/yungerman would visit him asking for a Bracha he would demand to know why they don’t have a beard since according to tzemach tzedek and other Chassidishe poskim that they follow, hold that having a beard is min HaTorah. When litvishe bachurim/yungerman would ask for a Bracha he would tell them that a segula for a Bracha is to start growing a beard
“clean shaven Chassidishe bachurim/yungerman”
Who exactly would fall into this category?The two are related. If shaving with an electric shaver is assur because of simlas ishoh as no stubbles are left, he would be ovar on cutting with a razor.
The Chazon Ish wrote the following about b’nei Torah who shave, as quoted by Rav Chaim Kanievsky in Orchos Yosher chapter 5 :
“Throughout our history, it has been a disgrace for anyone not to have a beard. It is only in recent generations that some have started to treat this irreverently, having learned this from the non-Jews…”
Similarly, the Chazon Ish zt’l wrote in Kovetz Igros (vol. 1, #198) [concerning removing the beard with depilatory cream and close-cutting scissors]: “‘Although this sickness has spread even among Torah scholars, may they be well, the issue has not changed as a result, and therefore my soul burns with rage because of this practice’…. [The Chazon Ish] once said that when someone who removes his beard…comes in to see him, he feels so sick that he almost vomits.”
Similarly, Rav Aharon Kotler zt’l stated (as quoted in the second volume of the sefer Aish HaTorah [p. 265], an authoritative biography of Rav Aharon Kotler [authored by Rav Aharon Sorosky shlita, acclaimed biographer of many Gedolim]):
“Growing a beard is a malbush yehudi, the traditional appearance of a Jew and the way our fathers and forefathers all conducted themselves. Hence, the beard falls under the halachic mandate to uphold the traditional practices of our people (“Do not abandon the Torah of your mother” [see Pesachim 50b]).”
כתוב בספר ‘אש התורה’ (מאת הרב אהרן סורסקי) ח”ב ע’ רסה (בשם אחד מותיקי תלמידי הגר”א קוטלר זצ”ל בליקווד, ת”ח מופלג ומרביץ תורה):
“בחור מן הישיבה שגידל זָקָן, שטח לפניו [היינו לפני רבינו הגר”א קוטלר זצ”ל] באחד הימים את עגמת נפשו, באשר הוריו מתנגדים לכך בצורה נחרצת, ודורשים ממנו שיגלח את שערות זקנו. אמר לו רבינו: לגדל הזקן הוי מלבוש יהודי, כה נהגו אבותינו ואבות אבותינו. ומכיון שמדובר ב”אל תיטוש תורת אמך” אינך מחויב לציית להם”.To further clarify the position of the Chofetz Chaim zt’l on this issue and whether he approved of talmidim in litvishe yeshivos being beardless, it is worth reviewing the testimony of the Chofetz Chaim’s grandson, Rav Gershon Zaks zt’l, Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivas Chofetz Chaim in Suffern, New York. This testimony is cited by HaGaon Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita, in Teshuvos V’Hanhagos, Vol. 5, Section 264, and is quoted verbatim in Hadras Ponim Zokon, p. 18 and was recently cited by Rav Chaim Kanievsky in a letter issued by his son in law, Rav Yitzchok Kolodetsky dated 9 Nissan, 5777:
“The approach of my grandfather, the Chofetz Chaim zt’l, was that everyone should grow his beard, as explained at length in Kuntres Tiferes Odom at the conclusion of his text Nidchei Yisrael. In particular, that tzaddik [the Chofetz Chaim zt’l] suffered great pain and felt great anguish because of those who used shavers.
This refers even to shavers that operate by hand, as existed in his day, which would not trim as close to the flesh as the electric razors used today. In his text Likkutei Halachos to tractate Makkos (ch. 3, Ein Mishpat, sec. 7), he concludes: ‘A person who guards his soul should distance himself very far from this.’ His intent was not that this is a mere stringency, but that it is required by law, applicable to every Jew, without distinction.”
If bachurim in Radin shaved their beards in later years, it was absolutely without the consent and contrary to the position of the Chofetz Chaim, as his son wrote in his biography of the Chofetz Chaim (published in Kol Kisvei Chofetz Chaim):
“Year after year my father admonished [people] regarding shaving the beard, both orally, in writing and in his publications, but hardly anyone listened to him.”This reality regarding the Chofetz Chaim’s vehement objection to shaving is documented further in the aforementioned quotation from Rav Gershon Zaks zt’l, the grandson of the Chofetz Chaim zt’l, which continues:
“I heard the following story in this regard from my revered father, the gaon, R. Menachem Yosef Zaks, son-in-law of the Chofetz Chaim and the Rosh Yeshivah of Yeshivas Chofetz Chaim, Radin, which shows the extent the matter caused anguish to the Chofetz Chaim, zt’l.
“In the latter years of the Chofetz Chaim’s life, his hearing was severely compromised. Therefore, his practice was to stand next to the reader’s platform in order to fulfill his obligation to hear the Torah reading. Nevertheless, on several occasions, he suddenly moved away from the platform in the midst of the Torah reading.
“When my revered father asked him the reason for his conduct, the Chofetz Chaim answered that he cannot bear the fact that an aliyah is being given to a person who does not have a beard. Therefore he refrains from hearing the Torah reading, because of his anguish.
“From that time on, my father, zt”l, and my uncle, zt”l, ordained that on the days when the Chofetz Chaim would come to hear the reading of the Torah, an aliyah would not be given to a person who cut his beard.”
In fact, the Chofetz Chaim wrote an entire sefer called “Kuntres Tiferes Odom” in which he vigorously refuted all the justifications used for shaving (e.g., to help find a shidduch, to help find a job, to improve one’s appearance, and so on), and he sharply declared (as well as providing a thorough explanation) that these justifications were against the Torah.
“As a side note, glad to see your trolling career has forced you to look into the Mishnah Berurah. That’s something most Lubavitchers wouldn’t do.”
First straight out lie
Second what exactly encourage you to say this?????Bava Metziah 84a – Rav Yochanan ,ayin sham.
“First straight out lie”
Well, I’m glad you think it’s my first.“what exactly encourage you to say this?????”
The fact that’s it’s true combined with the fact that it fits in rather nicely with my back-and-fourth with RGP.As for the reason why bochurim in Litvishe Yeshivos shaved their beards, prior comments quoted from the Chofetz Chaim, the Chazon Ish and Rav Chaim Kanievsky who all stated that it is only in recent generations that some have started to shave, having learned this from the non-Jews. Moreover, the Chofetz Chaim and Chazon Ish vehemently protested against the Bnei Torah removing their beards, as previously quoted.
Since today was the l’vaya of Rebbetzin Brudny o’h of the Mirrer Yeshiva, let us utilize today to quote from the Mirrer Rosh Yeshiva in his authoritative biography “Visions of the Rov: Highlights from the Life and Times of Moreinu Hagaon Harav Rav Avrohom Kalmanowitz zt’l” (published by the Mirrer Yeshiva), where we find (ch. 1, p. 28) Rav Kalmanowitz’s testimony in this matter. Rav Kalmanowitz is quoted there as saying that the reason the bochurim in Slabodka removed their beards was (not for reasons of yiras Shomayim that should be emulated, but just the opposite:) because “Western influences had infiltrated the Yeshivos of that time, making…beardless faces the norm.” Rav Kalmanowitz therefore refused to shave, and the Roshei Yeshiva and his friends respected him for it.
When the bochurim in Slabodka started shaving, the Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Moshe Mordechai Epstein zt’l (author of the Levush Mordechai), wanted them to keep their beards, but the bochurim did not listen to him (as recorded in Shaalos U’Teshuvos Pe’as Sodcha, sec. 101). Furthermore, the Slabodka Rosh Yeshiva wrote very sharply in his introduction to Levush Mordechai (on Bava Kamma):
“Every Jew should reflect on this [that a raven forsakes its children since they do not appear like it] and have mercy on his children only when they walk in the paths of Hashem, through which they are similar in their appearance to their parents, keeping Shabbos and growing a beard. However, [he should] not [display mercy] to those who are not at all similar in their appearance to the Jewish people, for they have become distant and have garbed themselves in a different style, desecrating Shabbos and disdaining the sacred…. Their appearance is not similar to the Jewish people, for they have removed the tzelem Elokim [Divine image, a reference to the beard] from themselves.”Regarding the Telz (Telshe) Yeshiva, it is recorded that
“…when the disease of cutting the beard spread among students of the [Litvishe] Yeshivos, the well-known Gaon, Rabbi Eliezer Gordon [Rov and Rosh Yeshiva of Telz], of blessed memory, adopted the most stringent measures [to stop it]. When he saw that they persisted in their defiance, he mobilized the Geonim of that time — the venerable Rabbi Y. Dovid Friedman [Rov of Pinsk-Karlin], the venerable Rabbi Eliyahu Chaim Meisel [Rov of Lodz, Poland], and the mighty Geonim Rabbi Chaim HaLevi [Soloveitchik, Rov of Brisk], and Rabbi Chaim Ozer [Grodzenski, Rov of Vilna], of blessed memory. He demanded that they place a prohibition on Rabbonim against granting [students who cut their beards] Rabbinic ordination [semichah], on Shochtim against teaching them the skill of ritual slaughtering [shechitah], and on Jewish communities against employing them in any religious position” (Kovetz Yagdil Torah 7:5).
[It is important to note that this entire discussion regarding the practice of the Litvishe bochurim in pre-war Europe has no relevance nor is it comparable to the way most frum people shave today, namely, using an electric shaver, which, in the words of Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita, has been prohibited by “all the Gedolei Hador.”]The following response by Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman, zt’l to the “argument” that the students of the Litvishe Yeshivos of yesteryear used to shave their beards, was recently publicized:
ואומר רבינו: “כי מה שנהגו פעם בישיבות לגלח, כי לא היה ידוע האיסור” (פרי חיים ממרן הרב שטיינמן שליט”א, שופר ארגון להפצת יהדות, צוות שופר גנזי המלך, כו תמוז תשע”ב).
“The reason it was once common for yeshiva bochurim to shave is because the issur involved was not widely known.”1 account 1 reply.
Hmm…. Classic maneuver. Might have worked in 2010.
To answer the OP,
Rabbi Chaim is a great talmid but he is not a posek and never claimed or tried to be one.
Well, I’m glad you think it’s my first.
I don’t count your liesBut it’s not true. We learn shulchon aruch harav bit that only works for the simonim we have but for the ones we the Rebbe said we should learn MISHNA BRURAH. So please get your facts straight.
Now am I false accusing you, if I say that you say straight out loshen hara for now reason and it’s just hatred?
Rabbi Chaim is a great talmid but he is not a posek and never claimed or tried to be one
What????
He paskens tens of thousands of shealos
Are you nuts?So Reb Moshe didn’t know halacha.That’s news to me and many more people in here.
Do you think Reb Moshe would check electric shavers as he did by running then up and down his arm to see what it did to his hair on his arm. Yes the shaver was off. Do you think he would paskin which shavers were good if it wass issur min hatorah. I don’t think so.CORRECTION:
“Well, I’m glad you think it’s my first.”
I don’t count your lies
But it’s not true. We learn shulchon aruch harav for the simonim we have, but for the ones we don’t have, the Rebbe said we should learn MISHNA BRURAH. So please get your facts straight.Now am I false accusing you, if I say that you say straight out loshen hara for now reason and it’s just hatred?
So Reb Moshe didn’t know halacha.That’s news to me and many more people in here.
Do you think Reb Moshe would check electric shavers as he did by running then up and down his arm to see what it did to his hair on his arm. Yes the shaver was off. Do you think he would paskin which shavers were good if it wass issur min hatorah.“We learn shulchon aruch harav bit that only works for the simonim we have but for the ones we the Rebbe said we should learn MISHNA BRURAH.”
Source? I know you learn regular S”A for the missing simonim, but I hadn’t heard you learn M”B. I’m pretty sure I’ve heard Chabadniks call it misnagdish. Is this going to be another schism between the crazy new-age Chabadniks and the “real” Chabadniks?RGP:
I shave, but keep cholov Yisroel, but that’s a good point. I should start eating cholov stam now. Thanks for the heter, buddy.” I can feel good being super-machmir on a halacha I like (and proudly call muself a chareidi machmir with “high standards”)”
Yeah, you can do that. Most of us don’t have weird inferiority complexes and just go with the flow without needing to constantly re-confirm our views.Nev,
They did print a MB with דברי הרב on all halachos that the the MB disagrees with the Rav .I did not read through this entire thread. But shaving is mefurash halacha in Shulchan Aruch:
אינו חייב על השחתת פאת הזקן אלא בתער אבל במספרים מותר אפילו כעין תערThe Shulchan Aruch rules that it is mutar to shave one’s beard so long as you do not use a razor. The Rema agrees but holds that one should be careful not to use scissors in a razor-like manner:
ומ”מ נזהרים כשמסתפרין במספרים שיעשה היקף הגילוח בחלק העליון מן המספרות ולא בתחתון פן יעשה הכל עם חלק התחתון והוי כתערRav Chaim Kanievsky is free to disagree with the Shulchan Aruch but it is difficult to fault the large numbers of frum men that follow the Shulchan Aruch on this issue.
How come three days ago is listed as less than two days ago?
I didn’t write that
Nevillechaimberlin: “As a side note, glad to see your trolling career has forced you to look into the Mishnah Berurah. That’s something most Lubavitchers wouldn’t do.”
If i would get a nickel for every lie you make….. I would have enough money to buy YWN and kick you off of CR. What i find most ironic is the fact that you seem to roll stuff off your proverbial tongue as if you have you actually know what your talking about. How ’bout you stop just posting whatever your stomach tell you, and actually get to work before you start posting your nonsense in public. I wish I would have enough time to rebut all of your statements but I just don’t have the time or patience.
I’m not sure what you mean by “something most Lubavitchers wouldn’t do”. It seems like you aren’t that familiar (to put it mildly) with the way it works in today’s Chabad curriculum. It is a known fact that many times when there is no ALter Rebbe Shulchan Aruch, Chabad paskins like the Mishna Berura. I clearly remember getting learning it back in Yeshiva and even getting tested on it….
“I’m pretty sure I’ve heard Chabadniks call it misnagdish” Pretty sure??? Is this another one of your fantasies? Buddy, it’s time to get e-du-c-a-t-e-d….
“Is this going to be another schism between the crazy new-age Chabadniks and the “real” Chabadniks?”
Huh????? now I’m totally lost… please explain yourself instead of just rambling.
P.S sorry if I sounded harsh. I just get frustrated when people publicize untrue facts.Rebbetzin, why do you think that he is the only gadol?
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