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Ask ten people that question and you will get twenty different answers. Because Yeshivos are too strict in their acceptance policies; because school curricula are disproportionately difficult; because parents pressure their kids unduly; because we are too lax with our standards in Mitzvos; because schools do not teach Hashkafa properly; because mental illness and abuse are overlooked; the reasons continue ad infinitum.
soliek +1
In answer to your question, yes it does matter, not so much because of the past, but for the future.
Each generation has had it’s problems; you’re right about that, but the nisyonos have changed. The ta’vah for avodah zara is gone, so that battle has changed. The challenge presented by the haskalah has all but disappeared, as well. Today’s youth are, for the most part, confronted with a different set of chalenges, not the least of which are dealing with today’s technology and the decadence it allows, the overall moral decline of society and its infiltration into our communities, and the high stress level of today’s fast paced, hectic world.
How to deal with these problems is essential to keep our children in the fold, and identifying causes for youth leaving the path of Torah is an important key.
In your role as mentor to youth at (or beyond) risk, it is indeed more important to deal with the individual. It’s also vital to deal with our still frum youths as individuals, but our society’s norms are generally dictated by what’s best in general.
It is how to structure these general norms and policies which are the subject of much discussion and debate. Don’t belittle it just because your personal tafkid is, rightfully, focused elsewhere.
Aries, I’m surprised (maybe confused is a better word).
On this forum, (and probably in real life as well) you’ve been at the forefront in discussing and debating the problems underlying OTD. In fact, on a current thread, you listed many reasons. Why do you agree with soliek now that it’s all beside the point?
When I wrote my previous comment, I was actually defending the usefulness of discussions such as the ones you often engage in!
Soleik, if the OTD individual wants to talk about the why’s that is up to them. It is the job of the caring individual to just reach out to them, show them that the Frum people do care about them, can and are truly frum, honest, follow the Torah, are not hypocritical, can be relied on and counted on, etc. When you make contact with them, you have to be a good role model and be the best Jew you can be. That shows that individual that we all have bechira and many of us make mistakes but one should not label ALL of us in the same manner, and that one should look at the ones that do it right rather than the ones that do it wrong.
The Reason they go off the derech matters to them to them it is valid and perhaps if the members of their families were to discuss the reasons they could start them on the path back to frumkeit.
sure it matters for those in that mess. I have friends who have kids who have been kicked out of Yeshiva for smoking Cannabis, and for engaging in relations with opposite sex. now these 2 are one is completly otd and the other is just about. You can see them in SHule twice a year.
The reasons are certainly important to help others mainly.
How to get them back to Yiddishkeit is a different topic, you should help others to prevent. Even though each family dynamic is different.
Soliek i wouldn’t know i didn’t read your entire post i just read the title and reacted to that.
Why did Eisav go off the derech. Guess what? No reason; that’s the way he was born. People are born with different personalities, character traits, and degrees of yetzer hara strengths; and the ability to overcome their yetzer hara.
DY, the reasons they go off the derech doesn’t matter when you are working with the kids themselves unless they want to discuss it with you. The reasons they go off the derech is important for the General Olam so that WE can work on ways to correct it.
The reason you broke your leg is not as important to your physical therapist as is the effort you make or the connection you make with that person in order to heal. The reason you broke your leg is important for the accident prevention group so that they can help others not to do what you did.
The issue isn’t why kids go OTD, it’s why did this particular kid go OTD. However many reasons there may be for going OTD, the particular reason certainly matters to the individual OTD. And that particular reason has to be dealt with in that particular kiruv effort.
Everyone is an individual.
Aries,
DY… The reasons they go off the derech is important for the General Olam so that WE can work on ways to correct it.
Yes, that was my point, I just didn’t see that perspective in soliek’s otherwise meaningful post.
I read the OP’s title and started laughing. Only Soliek would ask “does it really matter?”. ..LOL!
well i was going at it more from the kiruv rechokim POV rather than the kiruv krovim POV
Yes, but even if it only matters from one perspective, it still matters.
Your point regarding those who went off already, though, is very salient. At that point, there’s no reason to point fingers, it’s vital to show love.
without going to read this whole thread, could you just tell me what did you mean by that? Becuse what comes to mind , for me, is that IT DOES matter because then we can figure out prevention/intervention.
EVen fire fighters have to ask themselves how did this fire start.
If there is a problem that you care to fix, you try to find the root of the problem. The answer to the OP’s question, “does it really matter?” is – to someone who cares, yes.
Besides, who cares if everyone has their own opinion which to them is the one and only reason why kids go off? Let each person with an opinion work on whatever it is they believe the cause to be, and maybe then things will change!
Oh please. Shutting up the free exchange of ideas is way more counterproductive.
i usually only read my posts. LOL
The point here is, if you want to help you can’t walk over to a child and say “what’s your story?”. If you want to help, you go over to a child and say “I’m here, how can I help you?”. That is the attitude YOU have to bring to the table. If s/he connects with you their story will eventually come out piece by piece and you will have the opportunity to help them with making sense of it, or dealing with it, whatever the case may be. It is not important to know why they went OTD before approaching them. That is not necessary in order to help them.
soliek
I agree with you. I enjoy reading ur thoughts on OTD kids, btw. Keep em coming.
Knowing why kids go off is not only advantageous for one who wants to help the kids, but also for one who wants to prevent it.
Therefore, if I believe that kids go off because their parents are obnoxious, and as such I make an extra effort to break any obnoxious habits I may have, and Yankel Shmerel believes that kids go off because there is too much pressure, so he eases up on the pressure, and Hentcha Genendel believes that kids go off because they aren’t taught enough about certain things, so she teaches her kids these things, and so on, what’s to lose?
My point is that it’s worth everyone spouting their boich svaros because while it might not help much in the quest of bringing people back, it does have an impact on the way people think, and causes them to think more about their behavior in the future, thus avoiding the issue to begin with.
You can post some content specific to your blog, and if someone Googles it, it will come up.
And my point is – who cares?
So what if I think this is THE reason and he thinks that is THE reason and she thinks that is THE reason? Most of us in our everyday lives are not in the helping-kids-at-risk business anyway. If someone opines that a certain fault is the cause, then they will go and fix that in their own life. Eventually people will start to be mashpia on each other because each person will see the other working on a specific area, and the world will naturally become a better place.
So who cares? Let people have opinions. It won’t make things worse.
“the main thing i was addressing were threads like that other OTD thread in the CR where the OP sounds like that IS the definitive reason why kids go off the derech…”
That really bothers me as well, but I’m with yitayningwut on this one.
I don’t think people look at it as a black and white thing. You would have to be stupid to do that. But no one can pinpoint the exact cause of kids going off the derech. So there is nothing they can know that will prevent kids from going off.
People will have preconceptions regardless of whether or not they share them. All sharing them does is to allow a discussion to ensue, which I think causes more benefit than harm.
Two of my five are off the derech; it is a 24/7 nightmare. Both of these kids were oppositional from the start, so the fact that they reject halacha, with all its rules, is understandable … kinda. But some of the people who should have been able to avert the problem only made it worse: Rabbis who didn’t take their questions seriously. Principals who lied. Teachers who told the one with LD (that was especially pronounced in Hebrew) that he was stupid.
In case we aren’t suffering enough and guilting ourselves enough, we are subjected to the pervasive mindset that if the kid is OTD, it’s the parents’ fault. Period.
They’re 19 and 25 now, and not very open to finding a way back in. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
njsavta -Sorry to hear. I can relate, but mine have nothing to do with the school system (or very little).
But I wonder why do Frum people have a double standard? The Freye/BT person/kid they tell -whatever Mitzva you do is better than none. The FFB person/kid they tell whatever you do Is Not good enough. Since this is what they do -I’m really not surprised that we have so many going OTD!
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