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If they keep Yoshke out of it, and pray to Hashem directly, can their prayers be answered?
“For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations.”
The Wolf
The Noahide World Center has published a siddur for Bnei Noach called “Brit Olam”. If you are interested you can check it out on their website.
GM, nobody’s prayers are guaranteed acceptance. Hashem is free to say “No”.
Avi K: Well, technically speaking, “No” is also an answer.
But, generally speaking, why would one think that their prayers would not be answered?
I think we too often get bogged down in a competitive view of the world (and what Chaza”l meant); it’s us versus them and only one team can emerge victorious (or, at all).
Isn’t it among the roles of the Jews to influence the nations of the world to accept HaShem as the One, true Master? If so, it seems imperative that, among other things, the tefillos of the non-Jews be directed to Him, alone.
I would think that if their tefillos are important, then a response of some sort is not an unreasonable expectation.
How about a prayer in a mosque to Allah or in a church to the Trinity or to Buddah?
Git Meshige -“If they keep Yoshke out of it, and pray to Hashem directly, can their prayers be answered?”
Yes, they can be answered. As a matter of fact, their curses can be answered. Balak 23 #8. Only because Hashem didn’t get angry, otherwise
Bulem could curse them during that time!
A prayer in a church is a prayer to avoda zara.
Though a prayer in a mosque is okay.
Islam is monotheistic, so it’s more complicated. Buddhists don’t really pray.
A Jew is permitted to enter a mosque and pray in it.
Joseph: That is incorrect. Horribly so. At the very least, it’s Chukas HaGoy. At worst, it’s a Tefillah in the Makom Avodah Zarah.
I’ll double check but my recollection was the Halacha is not only is it permissable to go into a mosque (unlike a church which is forbidden to enter) but that it is permitted pray there. Are you saying the Halacha is you can enter but not pray in a mosque?
“That is incorrect. Horribly so.”
Wrong. Joseph is right on this one. In fact, Chabad of Parkchester, in the Bronx, holds its services in a mosque. (The two synagogues in the neighborhood both closed and were sold.)
Maarat Hamachpelah is a Mosque
SO is the burial site in Hamden of Mordechai and Esther in Iran
RebYidd, there is a machloket between Rambam on the one hand and Rabbenu Tam and the Meiri on the other as to whether shituf is permitted to gentiles. If it is it might not be a problem for them to daven to Yoshke. For us though it is avoda zara. That includes davening to a tzaddik (Gesher HaChaim 2:25 – http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31172&st=&pgnum=196(?
Joseph, regarding going into a mosque, google “going into a mosque” and you will find different opinions.
Zahavasdad, that is a PA lie. The Maharat HaMachpela is a Jewish holy site with a separate area for Moslem prayers.
The burial sities for the Avoth are Jewish sites, but the current building on the site is a Mosque
“In fact, Chabad of Parkchester, in the Bronx, holds its services in a mosque.”
The mosque may be permitted, but to daven with Chabad many hold is assur.
Sam2: Since the original topic was the tefillah of a goy, I don’t think chukkos hagoyim is an issue. I’m pretty sure goyim have no such issur.
Also, I don’t think there’s any shittah that Islam is avodah zarah. The Rambam, R’ Saadya Ga’on, and all Arabic-speaking Rishonim all refer to Hashem by the name A-lah.
tiawd: I was replying to Joseph’s comment.
And the Ran holds that it is A”Z.
Tiawd, the Ran (Sanhedrin 61b) holds that any religion other than Judaism is a”z. The Tzitz Eliezer (14:91; 18:47) paskens like him but Rav Ovadia and Rav Eliashiv were meikal.
Sam: Rambam and the consensus of most others hold it is not. Including Rav Ovadia Yosef, Yabia Omer 7, YD 12.
Avi K: Read it again. That’s not quite how the Ran says it.
Joseph: I agree. He said no Rishonim hold that it’s A”Z. I said the Ran does. He’s a minority, but he’s still a Rishon.
Sam, read it again yourself. For your convenience I will post a link:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14458&st=&pgnum=127 (?”? ????).
Do they still bow to the “prophet”?
Christian beliefs range from monotheism to typical polytheism.
Mainstream Christian belief in the trinity isn’t monotheism. Very very few Christians truly have monotheistic beliefs.
Hashem can do anything. So of course He could answer prayers even if they are not really directed to Him. Billions of people are rural and isolated and have never heard of Hashem. It’s up to Him whether to have mercy on them and respond to their misplaced prayers.
mormons, “witnesses” and several smaller denominations including “jews for j” reject the trinity.
Neither Mormons nor the Witnesses are mainstream Christians. And they are cumulatively a tiny minority of Christians.
Joseph: Yes, I’m saying that it’s Muttar to enter a mosque but not Daven there.
Joseph, you might be equating Catholicism w in the mainstream Christianity . Baptists , evangelicals might reject the Trinity as well. Their church’s have none of the statuary found in DC churches
malachim alef perek ches posuk mem alef to mem gimmel and rashi kichul
Lesschumras (BTW, it is “fewer chumrot” as each chumra is important by itself), the vast majority of Protestants accept Trinitarianism. Notable exceptions are the various Unitarian denominations, which do not consider Yoshke to be more than a great teacher or prophet. Even some of those smaller denominations that do not are not purely monotheistic and/or accept Yoske as their god.
I am new here.
There seems to be evidence that during the shmad in southern Spain, the Rambam’s family had to attend the mosque every Friday (until they left, they were given a year to leave) under the threat of being killed otherwise.
This might explain why the Rambam wrote a letter to his son when he arrived in Akko, saying “nitzalti min hashmad”.
This would be consistent with what the Rambam wrote about “Ya’avor ve’al yehareig” if it isn’t avoda zara.
Gettingholld, I would say the opposite. Because they did not consider it a”z they attended. Rambam’s statement could either mean that they attended but did not pray or that they got out of attending. BTW, Rav Kook says that a shochet can say “Allh hu akbar” (Gd is great) when shechting for Moslems, as they demanded during one period.
Avi K: They don’t say “Allah hu akbar” during slaughtering. They say “Bismallah” (in the name of God).
Sam, at that time there was a chumra to say ah”a. At least that is what the teshuva says to the best of my recollection. Bli neder I will look it up when I have time.
Avi
it is clear that he felt that it wasnt avoda zara. hence “yaavor v’a; yehareg”.
exactly what he meant when he said nitzalti min hashmad, I am not sure.
It would be chukas hagoy to say Allahu Akbar before doing shechita.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_35269_81.pdf
Joseph: Did you read your own source that you quoted? He’s against it Lechatchilah and says try to avoid it, but Bedieved it’s Muttar.
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He says it resembles chukas hagoy. He does not say it actually is (otherwise it would not even be muttar b’sha’as had’chak).
Sam is correct.
“the Ran (Sanhedrin 61b) holds that any religion other than Judaism is a”z.”
Prof. Marc Shapiro has proven that that Ran was not by the Ran. Which leaves us with no Rishon who thought that Islam is a”z.
“Allah” is simply the Arabic word for God. Arabic-speaking Christians use that word as well.
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Charlie, who is this professor and what is his proof? The Tzitz eliezer accepts it and those poskim who are meikal do not seem to dispute that the Ran wrote it. They simply hold like Rambam.
DY: Ironically enough, the Simlah Chadashah seems to be slightly misinformed about the issue here. (He also has the misconception that they say Allahu Akbar and not Bismillah, which I find interesting, but that’s a side point.) He thinks it’s better to say it before the Brachah to avoid a Hefsek. But that idea isn’t relevant. The Muslims have held for many centuries (at least back into the 1400s, maybe earlier) that the Brachah that we make before Shechitah counts as praising God’s name while slaughtering. So they think you don’t have to say Bismillah when Shechting the first animal. The problem (for them, not us) is that we hold that one Brachah is Poter many Shechitos. They hold that Bismillah must be said over each and every animal. So the only time the case the Simlah Chadashah is dealing with comes up is when Shechting multiple animals and in between each Shechitah after the first.
Well, if Prof. Marc Shapiro has decided something, then it’s definitely true.
Daas torah, you know.
Popa, what got into you? Since when is Marc Shapiro daas Torah? Anyhow, Charlie doesn’t believe in daas Torah, so what’s your point?
Anyhow, even if Marc Shapiro was right, the Ran on Sanhedrin is still a Rishon.
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