Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Does becoming MO make you rich?
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February 22, 2015 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #614948popa_bar_abbaParticipant
There’s an article floating around, which I haven’t read, saying that all MO people are rich.
I don’t know if that is true, but thinking about it, I can’t seem to think of any MO communities in places where it is cheap to live.
In NY: The chareidim live in williamsburg and boro park and flatbush, and the MO live in UWS and the five towns. Now granted it isn’t very cheap to live in boro park anymore, but you can move to kensington.
In Chicago: the chareidim live in west rogers park, and the MO live in lincolnwood and skokie.
In Boston: the chareidim live in Brighton, and the MO live in Brookline.
In Baltimore: the chareidim live in pickwick and the MO live in Greenspring.
In Miami: the chareidim live in N. Miami Beach, and the MO live in Boca.
v’chulli.
February 23, 2015 12:15 am at 12:15 am #1061411JosephParticipantThe MO schools charge an arm and a leg per kid. So MO families often can’t afford more than two kids (as the second kid will already cost them their second arm and leg.) So while the MO are indeed monetarily wealthier than the Chareidim, they end up just using their extra money to give to their schools. Meanwhile the Chareidim have more kids (averaging over six per family) despite not being monetarily wealthy. [Which accounts for why the Chareidim are experiencing explosive growth, so much so that that by now the vast majority of Orthodox Jews are Chareidim.] So whose better off you tell me?
February 23, 2015 12:27 am at 12:27 am #1061412oomisParticipantPurim is coming…
February 23, 2015 12:48 am at 12:48 am #1061413☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI know a MO fellow who had to move to Eretz Yisroel because he has a lot of kids, and even running two successful businesses, couldn’t afford the tuitions in the U.S.
It would have been cheaper for him to become chareidi.
February 23, 2015 2:15 am at 2:15 am #1061414besalelParticipantisnt it crazy what happens when you combine the yiddishe kup with a real education?
February 23, 2015 2:17 am at 2:17 am #1061415akupermaParticipantIf you were hareidi and become “modern orthodox” you will probably be better off economically. If you were anything not shomer mitsvos (conservadox, conservative, reform, assimilated) becoming “modern orthodox” will almost certainly create severe economic problems. Once you give up working on Shabbos and yuntuf, and keeping kosher both at home and at work, you pay a serious economic penalty. The line where the penalty kicks in is the one the separate “Modern orthodox” from non-frum. Having to adjust your work schedule to the Torah calendar seriously limits career options. Keeping kosher even if only the “ingredient kosher” that lets you have a tuna salad while your colleagues are having steak, means you suffer serious restrictions.
Having children isn’t really a function of “Modern orthodox” vs “Hareidi” – from the point of view of most Jews (who are not Shomer Mitsvos), the “Modern orthodox” also have “too many” children. Education for “Modern orthodox” is probably more expensive since they want both a Jewish and secular education (and good universities are vastly more expensive than a yeshiva).
I believe many hareidim don’t realize how much mesiras nefesh the Modern Orthodox have, and it is probably all the more painful since they are so close to being able to benefit from the outside world, but are just inside the line. They are inches away from being able to grab the golden ring of the secular world, and are refusing to grab it.
February 23, 2015 2:40 am at 2:40 am #1061416147ParticipantDoes becoming MO make you rich?</em. Yes vis a vis gathering Sechar for Shemiras Yom ha’Atzmaut.
February 23, 2015 2:51 am at 2:51 am #1061417popa_bar_abbaParticipantI dunno Akuperma, MO seems much more wealthy on average than the average secular American. I don’t think your math adds up.
February 23, 2015 2:58 am at 2:58 am #1061418Torah613TorahParticipantAkuperma, your last line reminds me of this:
In Shir Hashirim 7:1, it says,???? ???? ???????, ???? ???? ????? ??”, “?? ???? ??????? ?????? ??????!”
The non-Jews see the pretty flags of the Tribes in the desert, and they say to us (see Rashi), “Shulamis (one who is complete in faith), return from following G-d! In exchange, we will appoint you governors and rulers. We will try to think of what greatness to give you.”
And we the Jews respond, “What greatness can you give me that will equal my greatness, or even the greatness of the circle of our camps in the desert?” (where each tribe and person was perfectly positioned to serve G-d to the best of their ability.)
The golden ring of the secular world, as you call it, has sadly led many Jews to compromise their Judaism in their search for “quality of life”. Seeing this, you can hardly blame any Jew for their reluctance to jump in.
February 23, 2015 3:07 am at 3:07 am #1061419akupermaParticipantpopa_bar_abba: The average MO is hardly better off than the average non-orthodox Jews. Being better than the other major ethnic groups (European Americans, African Americans, Hispanics) doesn’t prove anything. The Modern Orthodox are better off than the Hareidim, but the secular Jews (the ones who work on Shabbos and eat cheeseburgers, not to mention many other things we don’t talk about) are humongously ahead of the Modern Orthodox.
February 23, 2015 3:16 am at 3:16 am #1061420FFBBT613MemberFebruary 23, 2015 3:18 am at 3:18 am #1061421popa_bar_abbaParticipantSource?
February 23, 2015 3:38 am at 3:38 am #1061422akupermaParticipantTorah613Torah: Thus even the MO who by being Shomer Shabbos and Shomer Kasrus (if they weren’t they are non-orthodox, non-frum, part of “them” rather than “us”) are showing tremendous mesiras nefesh. Shabbos and Kashrus are the line, and the MO are on the correct side of the line.
February 23, 2015 3:58 am at 3:58 am #1061423Torah613TorahParticipantAkuperma, that’s not what I’m saying at all.
FFBT; Maybe your parents can’t afford seminary. Also, how much do your parents earn a year? You know seminary is very expensive.
February 23, 2015 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1061424nfgo3MemberAny anti-Semite knows that all Jews are rich. Any Chareidi knows he/she is rich, just not necessarily with money.
February 23, 2015 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #1061425☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantEfshar farkert – maybe being rich makes you Modern Orthodox.
February 23, 2015 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #1061426golferParticipantInteresting thought, DY.
As in “Va’yishman Yeshurun va’yivat” is what you’re trying to say?
February 23, 2015 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1061427WolfishMusingsParticipantThere’s an article floating around, which I haven’t read, saying that all MO people are rich.
I don’t know if that is true
Anytime you read something that states “All [type of people] are [adjective],” there is a 99.9% that what you are reading is incorrect and drivel.
The Wolf
February 23, 2015 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1061428yytzParticipantMO Jews tend to be pretty well-off because they choose high-paying professions. They tend to choose high paying professions because they know tuition and housing are expensive. Becoming MO won’t make you wealthy if you’ve already chosen your profession.
It’s supposed to be a lot easier to be MO is Israel, because tuition is so much less. But there are fairly affordable MO areas in the US outside of the big ones — I think Cleveland, Buffalo, Detroit and Memphis might be examples.
February 23, 2015 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1061429☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantGolfer, no. To whatever extent I meant it seriously, I meant:
A) You can never prove cause and effect from two ideas coinciding.
B) It’s hard to be poor with kids and be MO, so some may choose not to be (in either direction).
The article popa referred to actually suggested that some who can’t afford it go OTD (more make aliyah, as I had mentioned).
The point of the article was to lament that the high cost of being MO drives people towards high paying professions, and there are therefore too few people in professions which allow for more expression and creativity.
February 24, 2015 3:11 am at 3:11 am #1061430popa_bar_abbaParticipantAlternatively, being poor makes you not MO.
Suppose you are MO and poor and live in Far Rockaway.
Can you afford to send your kids to HAFTR? Not by a mile. Darchei? Much more likely.
So you send your kids to Darchei, and they are no longer MO.
February 24, 2015 3:17 am at 3:17 am #1061431☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI did mention that, actually.
February 24, 2015 3:33 am at 3:33 am #1061432yytzParticipantNot all MO send their kids to MO schools…some send them to charedi schools, Chabad schools, community schools that are mainly non-frum, even public schools.
Such choices may make it more likely that they will become not-MO when they grow up, but when they’re still kids and living with their MO parents, they’re still MO.
Anyway, a lot of people have no choice, because many MO live in a place with no MO school, because there’s not enough MO to have their own separate school.
February 24, 2015 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #1061433gavra_at_workParticipantSo you send your kids to Darchei, and they are no longer MO.
And here I thought Darchei was basically MO.
February 24, 2015 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1061434☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantThat’s probably because of all the poor Far Rockaway MO families who can’t afford HAFTR. 🙂
February 24, 2015 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #1061435gavra_at_workParticipantThat’s probably because of all the poor Far Rockaway MO families who can’t afford HAFTR. 🙂
LOL 🙂
Darchei (I thought, correct me if I am wrong) has Regents, AP courses, and (as compared to a Yeshiva like Riverdale or Philly) a strong English department, as well as the vocational department we had discussed earlier. Doesn’t that make them MO?
February 25, 2015 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #1061436gavra_at_workParticipantFrom DY on the definition of MO:
I can’t think of a clear defining line, other than perhaps Zionism.
Earlier in the thread:
I know a MO fellow who had to move to Eretz Yisroel because he has a lot of kids, and even running two successful businesses, couldn’t afford the tuitions in the U.S.
It would have been cheaper for him to become chareidi.
So it isn’t MO, its Zionism (and its Elders?) who make MO rich?
February 25, 2015 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1061437☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantNo, I think there are lots of people who are clearly definable as MO or yeshivish aside from their views on Zionism, it’s just hard to pin where the line is.
February 25, 2015 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #1061438gavra_at_workParticipantNo, I think there are lots of people who are clearly definable as MO or yeshivish aside from their views on Zionism, it’s just hard to pin where the line is.
In the words of Judge Potter Stewart, “I know it when I see it.”
How about listing some of the characteristics of both, and perhaps we can evolve from there? Perhaps some people are both (or neither!)
February 25, 2015 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1061439☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantInteresting tzu shtell. There, though, there’s a necessity to categorize, to fit into the category of legal or illegal. I don’t see a compelling reason to do so here.
If we were discussing frum vs. not frum, we would need (and in fact the halachah does define) more specific parameters, because there are nafka minas, such as drinking their wine and.
February 25, 2015 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1061440Torah613TorahParticipantIt’s just going to devolve into a no true scotsman argument.
February 25, 2015 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1061441ubiquitinParticipantDY
Ive heard I forget from whom, (Ive heard it on a few occasions)the line between MO vs charedi being primarily over 3 things:
1) Zionism
2) Secular education (outside of parnasa)
3) Daas Torah
A fourth which is probaly less than the the first three, but is probably evolving
4) Role of women
To me this seems like a good line though obviously not absolute.
February 25, 2015 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #1061442gavra_at_workParticipantDaasYochid – Im Kain, you have a right to discuss or denigrate a group that you can’t even define? How did you know that your MO fellow you mentioned earlier was even MO? Maybe he was Yeshivish? A Galitzianer? Yekkie?
February 25, 2015 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1061443gavra_at_workParticipantubiquitin – There is a chasm between “MO” (even as others define it) and Charaidi (and most American Orthodox probably fall between).
February 25, 2015 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1061444☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantTorah613, we’ll see about that (nice to have you back).
Ubiquitin, there’s truth in that, but I think Zionism is easier than the others to put a ? or X in front of.
February 25, 2015 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1061445☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantGavra, I try not to denigrate, I rather disagree more often with certain actions I find objectionable, which some may choose to (or not) associate with MO. I probably could define MO in a vague sense, or give examples, I just don’t think it’s a productive endeavor.
February 25, 2015 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #1061446gavra_at_workParticipantGavra, I try not to denigrate, I rather disagree more often with certain actions I find objectionable, which some may choose to (or not) associate with MO.
Do you associate such actions with MO?
If not, why are you confirming a negative stereotype?
If yes, can you define MO as those who involve themselves in those negative actions?
February 25, 2015 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1061447☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI think ubiquitin’s #2 and #3 are likely to lead to some of those objectionable things, but there’s no absolute correlation.
February 25, 2015 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1061448gavra_at_workParticipantDY ROTFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!
I’ll let you be, instead of turning you into a more twisted pretzel trying to avoid answering 🙂
Otherwise you might have to respond “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is” 🙂
February 25, 2015 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1061449DaMosheParticipantRabbi Bender would not agree with Darchei being considered MO. They require black hats, velvet yarmulkas, and white shirts. I don’t know of any MO schools that require that.
R’ Bender is a visionary, who realizes that it’s unrealistic to expect boys to learn for a long time, and then be able to support a family. He makes sure the groundwork is there for when his talmidim need to go work. That should be the norm for all Jews.
February 25, 2015 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #1061450🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant*snicker*
February 25, 2015 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #1061451☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantThey require black hats, velvet yarmulkas, and white shirts. I don’t know of any MO schools that require that.
No true Scotsman…
Now that we’re done with that, how do we define “rich”?
February 25, 2015 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1061452Torah613TorahParticipantMaybe having less children makes you rich. All the MO I know who are rich have very few children.
February 25, 2015 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #1061453from Long IslandParticipantWhat a nutty misconception. There are many middle class MO neighborhoods, ie: West Hempstead, Oceanside, Staten Island, etc. We may make more money because we are schooled in skills that bring in better salaries, HOWEVER, our “Jewish” expenses are the same with the exception of Yeshiva tuition. Ours is much, much higher because we expect and demand an excellent education for our children.
In my neighborhood, both parents work, often both full-time without live in housekeepers.
We may not have families with 6+ children, but there is not a family in my neighborhood with less than 4 kids in a family.
Most of our kids do not go to sleep-away camp for a full summer, because we all pay full tuition. Vacations are stay-cations OR a visit to grandparents in Florida (no hotel or restaurant expenses) Most of our Yeshivas have uniforms as well, so our children do not wear expensive clothes. Our girls babysit, our boys shovel snow, and we all drive new cars that we keep forever.
Flatbush is NOT typical of MO and neither are the 5 Towns, because too many of these couples are living on Mommy & Daddy’s money. Their parents buy their houses, the kids clothes, and help pay tuition. They are not typical of MY lifestyle.
February 26, 2015 1:07 am at 1:07 am #1061454JosephParticipantIn Flatbush the MO these days are an extremely small proportion of the neighborhood. There are even many more Chasidim living in Flatbush than MO. Even in Five Towns the demographics have a strong mix of Chareidim and MO (whereas it had previously been an MO neighborhood.)
February 26, 2015 1:09 am at 1:09 am #1061455FFBBT613MemberTorah613Torah- B”H there are plenty of ways to afford Seminary & my parents are willing to put some of their money towards it… meaning I too, will have to put some money towards it. Same story with college.
February 27, 2015 2:06 am at 2:06 am #1061456Patur Aval AssurParticipantShu”t Ziknei Yehuda siman 3:
???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????
February 27, 2015 3:09 am at 3:09 am #1061457☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI don’t know of any non MO or MO (however it’s defined) who marry ??? ????.
February 27, 2015 4:44 am at 4:44 am #1061458Patur Aval AssurParticipantI don’t either; I was bringing a potential source that having many kids is a financial concern.
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