Does becoming MO make you rich?

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  • #614948
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There’s an article floating around, which I haven’t read, saying that all MO people are rich.

    I don’t know if that is true, but thinking about it, I can’t seem to think of any MO communities in places where it is cheap to live.

    In NY: The chareidim live in williamsburg and boro park and flatbush, and the MO live in UWS and the five towns. Now granted it isn’t very cheap to live in boro park anymore, but you can move to kensington.

    In Chicago: the chareidim live in west rogers park, and the MO live in lincolnwood and skokie.

    In Boston: the chareidim live in Brighton, and the MO live in Brookline.

    In Baltimore: the chareidim live in pickwick and the MO live in Greenspring.

    In Miami: the chareidim live in N. Miami Beach, and the MO live in Boca.

    v’chulli.

    #1061411
    Joseph
    Participant

    The MO schools charge an arm and a leg per kid. So MO families often can’t afford more than two kids (as the second kid will already cost them their second arm and leg.) So while the MO are indeed monetarily wealthier than the Chareidim, they end up just using their extra money to give to their schools. Meanwhile the Chareidim have more kids (averaging over six per family) despite not being monetarily wealthy. [Which accounts for why the Chareidim are experiencing explosive growth, so much so that that by now the vast majority of Orthodox Jews are Chareidim.] So whose better off you tell me?

    #1061412
    oomis
    Participant

    Purim is coming…

    #1061413
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I know a MO fellow who had to move to Eretz Yisroel because he has a lot of kids, and even running two successful businesses, couldn’t afford the tuitions in the U.S.

    It would have been cheaper for him to become chareidi.

    #1061414
    besalel
    Participant

    isnt it crazy what happens when you combine the yiddishe kup with a real education?

    #1061415
    akuperma
    Participant

    If you were hareidi and become “modern orthodox” you will probably be better off economically. If you were anything not shomer mitsvos (conservadox, conservative, reform, assimilated) becoming “modern orthodox” will almost certainly create severe economic problems. Once you give up working on Shabbos and yuntuf, and keeping kosher both at home and at work, you pay a serious economic penalty. The line where the penalty kicks in is the one the separate “Modern orthodox” from non-frum. Having to adjust your work schedule to the Torah calendar seriously limits career options. Keeping kosher even if only the “ingredient kosher” that lets you have a tuna salad while your colleagues are having steak, means you suffer serious restrictions.

    Having children isn’t really a function of “Modern orthodox” vs “Hareidi” – from the point of view of most Jews (who are not Shomer Mitsvos), the “Modern orthodox” also have “too many” children. Education for “Modern orthodox” is probably more expensive since they want both a Jewish and secular education (and good universities are vastly more expensive than a yeshiva).

    I believe many hareidim don’t realize how much mesiras nefesh the Modern Orthodox have, and it is probably all the more painful since they are so close to being able to benefit from the outside world, but are just inside the line. They are inches away from being able to grab the golden ring of the secular world, and are refusing to grab it.

    #1061416
    147
    Participant

    Does becoming MO make you rich?</em. Yes vis a vis gathering Sechar for Shemiras Yom ha’Atzmaut.

    #1061417
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I dunno Akuperma, MO seems much more wealthy on average than the average secular American. I don’t think your math adds up.

    #1061418
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Akuperma, your last line reminds me of this:

    In Shir Hashirim 7:1, it says,???? ???? ???????, ???? ???? ????? ??”, “?? ???? ??????? ?????? ??????!”

    The non-Jews see the pretty flags of the Tribes in the desert, and they say to us (see Rashi), “Shulamis (one who is complete in faith), return from following G-d! In exchange, we will appoint you governors and rulers. We will try to think of what greatness to give you.”

    And we the Jews respond, “What greatness can you give me that will equal my greatness, or even the greatness of the circle of our camps in the desert?” (where each tribe and person was perfectly positioned to serve G-d to the best of their ability.)

    The golden ring of the secular world, as you call it, has sadly led many Jews to compromise their Judaism in their search for “quality of life”. Seeing this, you can hardly blame any Jew for their reluctance to jump in.

    #1061419
    akuperma
    Participant

    popa_bar_abba: The average MO is hardly better off than the average non-orthodox Jews. Being better than the other major ethnic groups (European Americans, African Americans, Hispanics) doesn’t prove anything. The Modern Orthodox are better off than the Hareidim, but the secular Jews (the ones who work on Shabbos and eat cheeseburgers, not to mention many other things we don’t talk about) are humongously ahead of the Modern Orthodox.

    #1061420
    FFBBT613
    Member
    #1061421
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Source?

    #1061422
    akuperma
    Participant

    Torah613Torah: Thus even the MO who by being Shomer Shabbos and Shomer Kasrus (if they weren’t they are non-orthodox, non-frum, part of “them” rather than “us”) are showing tremendous mesiras nefesh. Shabbos and Kashrus are the line, and the MO are on the correct side of the line.

    #1061423
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Akuperma, that’s not what I’m saying at all.

    FFBT; Maybe your parents can’t afford seminary. Also, how much do your parents earn a year? You know seminary is very expensive.

    #1061424
    nfgo3
    Member

    Any anti-Semite knows that all Jews are rich. Any Chareidi knows he/she is rich, just not necessarily with money.

    #1061425
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Efshar farkert – maybe being rich makes you Modern Orthodox.

    #1061426
    golfer
    Participant

    Interesting thought, DY.

    As in “Va’yishman Yeshurun va’yivat” is what you’re trying to say?

    #1061427
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    There’s an article floating around, which I haven’t read, saying that all MO people are rich.

    I don’t know if that is true

    Anytime you read something that states “All [type of people] are [adjective],” there is a 99.9% that what you are reading is incorrect and drivel.

    The Wolf

    #1061428
    yytz
    Participant

    MO Jews tend to be pretty well-off because they choose high-paying professions. They tend to choose high paying professions because they know tuition and housing are expensive. Becoming MO won’t make you wealthy if you’ve already chosen your profession.

    It’s supposed to be a lot easier to be MO is Israel, because tuition is so much less. But there are fairly affordable MO areas in the US outside of the big ones — I think Cleveland, Buffalo, Detroit and Memphis might be examples.

    #1061429
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Golfer, no. To whatever extent I meant it seriously, I meant:

    A) You can never prove cause and effect from two ideas coinciding.

    B) It’s hard to be poor with kids and be MO, so some may choose not to be (in either direction).

    The article popa referred to actually suggested that some who can’t afford it go OTD (more make aliyah, as I had mentioned).

    The point of the article was to lament that the high cost of being MO drives people towards high paying professions, and there are therefore too few people in professions which allow for more expression and creativity.

    #1061430
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Alternatively, being poor makes you not MO.

    Suppose you are MO and poor and live in Far Rockaway.

    Can you afford to send your kids to HAFTR? Not by a mile. Darchei? Much more likely.

    So you send your kids to Darchei, and they are no longer MO.

    #1061431
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I did mention that, actually.

    #1061432
    yytz
    Participant

    Not all MO send their kids to MO schools…some send them to charedi schools, Chabad schools, community schools that are mainly non-frum, even public schools.

    Such choices may make it more likely that they will become not-MO when they grow up, but when they’re still kids and living with their MO parents, they’re still MO.

    Anyway, a lot of people have no choice, because many MO live in a place with no MO school, because there’s not enough MO to have their own separate school.

    #1061433
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    So you send your kids to Darchei, and they are no longer MO.

    And here I thought Darchei was basically MO.

    #1061434
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s probably because of all the poor Far Rockaway MO families who can’t afford HAFTR. 🙂

    #1061435
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    That’s probably because of all the poor Far Rockaway MO families who can’t afford HAFTR. 🙂

    LOL 🙂

    Darchei (I thought, correct me if I am wrong) has Regents, AP courses, and (as compared to a Yeshiva like Riverdale or Philly) a strong English department, as well as the vocational department we had discussed earlier. Doesn’t that make them MO?

    #1061436
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    From DY on the definition of MO:

    I can’t think of a clear defining line, other than perhaps Zionism.

    Superficial for shidduchim

    Earlier in the thread:

    I know a MO fellow who had to move to Eretz Yisroel because he has a lot of kids, and even running two successful businesses, couldn’t afford the tuitions in the U.S.

    It would have been cheaper for him to become chareidi.

    So it isn’t MO, its Zionism (and its Elders?) who make MO rich?

    #1061437
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, I think there are lots of people who are clearly definable as MO or yeshivish aside from their views on Zionism, it’s just hard to pin where the line is.

    #1061438
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    No, I think there are lots of people who are clearly definable as MO or yeshivish aside from their views on Zionism, it’s just hard to pin where the line is.

    In the words of Judge Potter Stewart, “I know it when I see it.”

    How about listing some of the characteristics of both, and perhaps we can evolve from there? Perhaps some people are both (or neither!)

    #1061439
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Interesting tzu shtell. There, though, there’s a necessity to categorize, to fit into the category of legal or illegal. I don’t see a compelling reason to do so here.

    If we were discussing frum vs. not frum, we would need (and in fact the halachah does define) more specific parameters, because there are nafka minas, such as drinking their wine and.

    #1061440
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    It’s just going to devolve into a no true scotsman argument.

    #1061441
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    Ive heard I forget from whom, (Ive heard it on a few occasions)the line between MO vs charedi being primarily over 3 things:

    1) Zionism

    2) Secular education (outside of parnasa)

    3) Daas Torah

    A fourth which is probaly less than the the first three, but is probably evolving

    4) Role of women

    To me this seems like a good line though obviously not absolute.

    #1061442
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DaasYochid – Im Kain, you have a right to discuss or denigrate a group that you can’t even define? How did you know that your MO fellow you mentioned earlier was even MO? Maybe he was Yeshivish? A Galitzianer? Yekkie?

    #1061443
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    ubiquitin – There is a chasm between “MO” (even as others define it) and Charaidi (and most American Orthodox probably fall between).

    #1061444
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Torah613, we’ll see about that (nice to have you back).

    Ubiquitin, there’s truth in that, but I think Zionism is easier than the others to put a ? or X in front of.

    #1061445
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, I try not to denigrate, I rather disagree more often with certain actions I find objectionable, which some may choose to (or not) associate with MO. I probably could define MO in a vague sense, or give examples, I just don’t think it’s a productive endeavor.

    #1061446
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Gavra, I try not to denigrate, I rather disagree more often with certain actions I find objectionable, which some may choose to (or not) associate with MO.

    Do you associate such actions with MO?

    If not, why are you confirming a negative stereotype?

    If yes, can you define MO as those who involve themselves in those negative actions?

    #1061447
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think ubiquitin’s #2 and #3 are likely to lead to some of those objectionable things, but there’s no absolute correlation.

    #1061448
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY ROTFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!

    I’ll let you be, instead of turning you into a more twisted pretzel trying to avoid answering 🙂

    Otherwise you might have to respond “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is” 🙂

    #1061449
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Rabbi Bender would not agree with Darchei being considered MO. They require black hats, velvet yarmulkas, and white shirts. I don’t know of any MO schools that require that.

    R’ Bender is a visionary, who realizes that it’s unrealistic to expect boys to learn for a long time, and then be able to support a family. He makes sure the groundwork is there for when his talmidim need to go work. That should be the norm for all Jews.

    #1061450
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    *snicker*

    #1061451
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    They require black hats, velvet yarmulkas, and white shirts. I don’t know of any MO schools that require that.

    No true Scotsman…

    Now that we’re done with that, how do we define “rich”?

    #1061452
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Maybe having less children makes you rich. All the MO I know who are rich have very few children.

    #1061453
    from Long Island
    Participant

    What a nutty misconception. There are many middle class MO neighborhoods, ie: West Hempstead, Oceanside, Staten Island, etc. We may make more money because we are schooled in skills that bring in better salaries, HOWEVER, our “Jewish” expenses are the same with the exception of Yeshiva tuition. Ours is much, much higher because we expect and demand an excellent education for our children.

    In my neighborhood, both parents work, often both full-time without live in housekeepers.

    We may not have families with 6+ children, but there is not a family in my neighborhood with less than 4 kids in a family.

    Most of our kids do not go to sleep-away camp for a full summer, because we all pay full tuition. Vacations are stay-cations OR a visit to grandparents in Florida (no hotel or restaurant expenses) Most of our Yeshivas have uniforms as well, so our children do not wear expensive clothes. Our girls babysit, our boys shovel snow, and we all drive new cars that we keep forever.

    Flatbush is NOT typical of MO and neither are the 5 Towns, because too many of these couples are living on Mommy & Daddy’s money. Their parents buy their houses, the kids clothes, and help pay tuition. They are not typical of MY lifestyle.

    #1061454
    Joseph
    Participant

    In Flatbush the MO these days are an extremely small proportion of the neighborhood. There are even many more Chasidim living in Flatbush than MO. Even in Five Towns the demographics have a strong mix of Chareidim and MO (whereas it had previously been an MO neighborhood.)

    #1061455
    FFBBT613
    Member

    Torah613Torah- B”H there are plenty of ways to afford Seminary & my parents are willing to put some of their money towards it… meaning I too, will have to put some money towards it. Same story with college.

    #1061456
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Shu”t Ziknei Yehuda siman 3:

    ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????

    #1061457
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t know of any non MO or MO (however it’s defined) who marry ??? ????.

    #1061458
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I don’t either; I was bringing a potential source that having many kids is a financial concern.

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