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how do you feel about it?
No.
a bais yaakov girl shouldnt be in a co-ed college either.
And does a Bais Yaakov Girl belong in a co-ed college?!
really it depends who
Yes.
what do you mean by “belong?”
It depends on the individual, and on his reasons for attending that college.
There are many ways to get an Undergrad degree without going to a mixed college. Desirable Graduate programs are pretty much all co-ed though.
Having in mind that degrees take 2-5 years to get, depending on credits received from previous sources, this means that within 2-5 years of going to a co-ed school, the boy/girl will be working in a mixed environment anyhow, so what are we accomplishing by holding them back from attending mixed colleges, when neccessary for their desired degrees.
Girls who dont go to college altogether, end up working in a co-ed environment sooner (offices) because they don’t all want to be teachers.
Some say that a few years later when the Singles have married and are more mature, there is substantially less danger of going to a co-ed College.
In todays society it is often necessary to get a degree and I beleive that people should go to college. Whether to go to a “Jewish” college or not is a question each person should discuss with his or her Rebbeim. I know many people who got their undergrad degree from Touro college and got a very good education. On the other hand, I wouldn’t necessarily say that Touro is that much better then other colleges when it comes to co-ed. I have seen the scene at Touro on Avenue J between classes during the summer and it is, in my opinion, not appropriate for a ben Torah. Better to go to a non-Jewish college where at least you realize that the people around you are not your type of people then to chas veshalom be negatively influenced by the “frum” people at Touro.
“Belong” is a funny word to use.
Like all life situations, ask your Rav. Unless your Rav is “joseph” (who has no problems issuing a psak, ever) you wont get much in the way of a psak here.
Do yeshiva boys belong on co-ed city buses? In co-ed supermarkets? Co-ed city streets?
There was once a lovely girl who went to a very chashuvah seminary (this is going back about fifteen years), who wanted very much to come back to America and attend Queens College, a public institution. She went to her Menaheles, a well-known Mechaneches, who advised her to teach in the morning, and attend classes in the afternoon/evening. The Ruchniyus that her morning teaching in Limudei Kodesh would give her would ground her for the experience. She did so and married a wonderful learning boy and established a chashuvah home.
In the New York area there are wonderful yeshivas for boys who don’t want to compromise their ruchniyus for their career and for whatever reason must attend co-ed college. These Rebbes are doing a wonderful job in guiding the boys and maintaining their learning and Yiddishkeit. Please speak to your Rav or seek out one of these yeshivas. Hatzlocha VeBrocha.
A yeshiva boy in a co-ed college?
Wonderful idea, absolutely yes. The yeshiva boy is steeped in Torah and Yiras Shamayim and his beliefs are rock solid. A good college education will enable him to meet people with different ideas, study literature,science and other valuable disciplines, teach him to interact with less reigious Jews and non-Jews, and enable outsiders to learn to respect him for his beliefs. A kiddush hashem and a win-win situation.
Ultimately, I don’t believe that there is a “one size fits all” answer to this question — as it must take into account several factors:
1. The temperament of the bochur.
2. The background of the bochur and his previous experiences.
3. What type of school he is going to (going to a public school while living at home is much different than dorming in a co-ed environment).
and probably a few other factors I neglected to mention. For some people in some circumstances, it would be absolutely right, while in other cases it could be incredibly wrong. Each case needs to be weighed individually.
The Wolf
“The yeshiva boy is steeped in Torah and Yiras Shamayim and his beliefs are rock solid”
how many of these people will end up in college
how many of these people will end up in college
Those that want professional careers that require a college education.
Or are you telling me that it is impossible for a doctor, psychologist, lawyer, etc. to be “steeped in Torah and Yiras Shamayim?”
The Wolf
Why should a co-ed college be any more acceptable than a co-ed high school?
There is an out-of-town coed school somewhere named Beth Tefila. We used to call it Beis Tifla…
no easy answer – depends on the boy – but my follow-up question, what about a yeshiva boy in a co-ed work environment – ? Where is the line drawn?
I understand what the wolf is saying. Its true it does depend on the type of person, its a not one size fits all decision.
A college is a more promiscuous environment than an office.
It worked for R’ Wolbe ZT”L.
In a calculus class I once took there was a young man. I don’t know whether or not he was a “yeshiva bochur,” but he wore a yarmulke and tzitzis. Every time he had difficulty grasping an easy concept, I would just shake my head and think “and they think girls are too stupid to learn gemorah!”
Now imagine if I was some BY girl fresh out of seminary and this is my first exposure to a frum boy who isn’t related to me. What a turn-off.
I think AZOLIS was right when he mentioned that there are those who say it’s better after marriage.
Jothar posted: “Why should a co-ed college be any more acceptable than a co-ed high school?”
Because many single-gender high schools offer good education. However, for a really good education in many subjects, one can only find it in a mixed school. Not to mention graduate-level work.
And some Torah Jews (men and women) may be interested in education for its own sake–whether in science, medicine, Yiddish culture, Tanach, English literature, law, etc.
Wolf, au contraire. It is only due to the weakness of faith that plagues these late generations that we build a shell around our communities – not because our faith is incompatible with the world. Ideally, we would all be wordly and steeped in Torah + Yiras Shamayim.
“And some Torah Jews (men and women) may be interested in education for its own sake–whether in science, medicine, Yiddish culture, Tanach, English literature, law, etc.”
That is completely the antithesis of Judaism.
Jothar posted: “A college is a more promiscuous environment than an office.”
Promiscuity can be found anywhere by one who looks for it.
A good education, on the other hand, is much more easily obtained at a university than anywhere else.
Ideally, we would all be wordly and steeped in Torah + Yiras Shamayim.
Agreed… but I’m not sure how this rebuts my argument.
Pusht seemed to say (and if I’m wrong, Pusht, please let me know… I’ll be more than happy to retract) that very few people (if any) in college are “steeped in Torah and Yiras Shamayim.” My response to that is that there are plenty of Jewish doctors, lawyers, psychologists and other college-educated professionals who are in that category.
The Wolf
Joseph, you are unequivocally wrong. Ignorance, and not education, is the antithesis of Judaism.
Wolf, I did read your comment out of context. I was replying to your statement as though it were a rhetorical question.
“And some Torah Jews (men and women) may be interested in education for its own sake–whether in science, medicine, Yiddish culture, Tanach, English literature, law, etc.”
That is completely the antithesis of Judaism.
About half the discussions here get to this point eventually, right?
squeak – You read my comment out of context as well. The key part of the statement I was responding to was “may be interested in education for its own sake
Didn’t the Lubavitcher Rebbe Z”L attend the Sorbonne? In France, yet!!!!!
Joseph posted “That is completely the antithesis of Judaism. ” and
“The key part of the statement I was responding to was “may be interested in education for its own sake”
Knowledge for its own sake is exactly what Judaism is about. The fact that Joseph seems to think that that knowledge should be limited to Gemara and commentaries notwithstanding–those of us who are willing to open our eyes to other subjects may observe that the world is full of wonders–and they may all be traced back to a single source.
Joseph, if (chalila) you need a doctor, do you think that he or she should not have pursued his or her knowledge for its own sake? The best ones do, you know. Or do you simply think that medicine should be left to the non-Jews? What about medical research? Do you get vaccinated? Do you vaccinate your children? Do you have any cancer survivors in your family? Diabetics? Let the doctors know that the discoveries that help keep them alive are the “antithesis of Judaism”.
I know a few people who did graduate work on the study of Piyyutim–by crawling into the material found in the Cairo Geniza and published previously forgotten Piyyutim and Kedusha’ot.
Those people were working at mixed Universities, and they did the work because of the love of the material, and the feeling that it should not be lost to Judaism and the world. Only a relatively small amount of this material has been investigated. Who knows–there may be some lost works of Rav Kalonymous or even Rav Ibn Ezra included in that material. Should it stay lost because people like you think that this type of study is the “antithesis of Judaism”?
Knowledge for its own sake is exactly what Judaism is about
That ONLY applies to study of the Jewish texts. It does NOT apply to secular knowledge, such as science, culture, literature, and law to take some of your examples above.
you need a doctor, do you think that he or she should not have pursued his or her knowledge for its own sake? The best ones do, you know.
I don’t believe that for a moment. They studied the material for the sake of practice, not for the sake of knowledge alone.
I know a few people who did graduate work on the study of Piyyutim–by crawling into the material found in the Cairo Geniza and published previously forgotten Piyyutim and Kedusha’ot.
The Cairo Geniza material is unreliable and unauthoritative.
Starwolf, there are many wonderful things involved in shaking a lulav and esrog- many esoteric kabbalistic concepts. Yet, lulav hagazul is passul. There are lines that aren’t crossed no matter how great the reward. No matter what the hidden manuscripts are in the Cairo genizah, if getting them involves violating issurim then we do without. I’m not saying one has to violate issurim to get them, but the ends don’t justify the means in yiddishkeit.
There is promiscuity everywhere if you know where to look for it. Yet, some environments are more conducive to it than others. If you think the typical office is as promiscuous as a college campus, then you are lacking knowledge about one of them.
I’m not saying attending a mixed college is assur. But the sakanos are there.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe audited classes. He was not an active student at the university. The Rav ZT”L did attend a mixed university, but universities were much different back then. The pritzus and “anything goes” mentality in today’s colleges didn’t exist.
Joseph, scientific knowledge and the great works of literature, music and other culture is also inspired by exactly the same source that inspires Jewish culture. The fact that you think that we should remain in a self-imposed ghetto by calling everything that does not come from (your particular flavor of) Judaism does not constrain the rest of us. I personally know Hareidi Rabbanim who have Ph.D.s in such topics as you list above, and they lead just as Torah-true lifestyles as anyone else.
The people researching the Geniza material spend a great deal of their time authenticating it. Do you think that they spend years just copying it down? I know folks who have spent time travelling around Europe, the US and Israel simply to cross-reference piyyutim found in old Machzorim held in private hands and museums.
What you (Joseph) believe about scientific and medical research is of no matter. I suspect that you have little knowledge of that world or the people who live in it. The best, and most productive people do it for the love of it, as well as the idea of treating people. In addition, those who are not clinicians do not directly treat people, and must hope for future benefits. The majority of those people do it for the love of discovery and knowledge.
scientific knowledge and the great works of literature, music and other culture is also inspired by exactly the same source that inspires Jewish culture.
Unequivocally incorrect. (And Jewish so-called “culture” is what the Torah defines it to be.)
I personally know Hareidi Rabbanim who have Ph.D.s in such topics as you list above
And they didn’t study the secular material they studied “for its own sake.” There was a tachlis to it.
Oy Vey! where to start? If this bochur had two options, on the path he chooses to follow in his career, 1)all male touro, or 2)co-ed, of course he should choose
an all male environment, besides for his ruchnius, he would have an easier time
1)being more comfortable in an environment he’s used to,
2) no physical distractions. Isn’t that why he’s there? to learn!
If his career choice doesn’t come with that option,
I agree with “the wolf” that it really depends on the guy, background, maturity,
professionalism, etc.. some guys, considering their personality, it wuould be a
very bad idea. (not ending up in a kiddush Hashem as s/o put it.)
I know plenty of men who went to co-ed colleges or universities and remained strong in their Frumkeit. I also know some who went off the derech. Fortunately, those are few.
The difference, at least in the people I know, is the family. If they come from a strong family, with solid Torah values, they don’t have a problem. But if the family is dysfunctional, or if their practice of Judaism is inconsistent in areas, that’s where the problem comes in. But those people would probably go off the derech without college.
Jothar,
I have little idea of what goes on in the “average office” if there is such a thing. Mea maxima culpa.
I do not think that one need violate any issurim to research geniza manuscripts.
As far as sakanot in mixed universities–I would like to think that part of a good religious education lies in teaching about those sakanot and how to deal with them. It is not really that difficult. Especially if one attends university to learn–not to fool around. University, in my opinion, should be a place where one concentrates on studying. I do realize, of course, that this is not always the the case. It seems to me that, these days, students attend college to:
Acquire knowledge for its own sake
Acquire knowledge to enter a profession for parnassa
socialize at one level or another.
While none of the above are mutually incompatible, we can assume that for the purposes of this discussion that #3 is not relevant. I think that the first two are both excellent reasons for attending a college, and #2 may even be necessary in many (not all) cases to support a Torah lifestyle, as income is correlated with education. For this reason, it is imperative on us to educate our children about the outside world–what is good and what is bad.
One does not need to enter a college to see evils of modern society to which we do not wish to expose our children. We can see this on every billboard or every shop that we enter. The only way that we can teach our children to avoid the treif in today’s world is through education. If our schools are not teaching these things to our children well enough after 12 years, then something is VERY wrong with the system. Of course, it is primarily a matter for the parents–but the same thing goes. If a yeshiva boy or seminary girl does not know right from wrong–then what are we teaching them in the yeshivas and seminaries?
I had posted that “I personally know Hareidi Rabbanim who have Ph.D.s in such topics as you list above.”
Joseph posted:
“And they didn’t study the secular material they studied “for its own sake.” There was a tachlis to it. “
No, Joseph, the Rabbanim to whom I refer are people that I do know personally, and have discussed the topic with them. I beleive that they tell me the truth when they say that they study the material for its own sake. Of course, you may know these people (whom I have not named) better than they know themselves.
Some people may have a purpose for studying French literature other than simply for the love of the knowledge. Others may do so for the latter reason. Not everyone, and not all Torah Jews are the same.
Of course, if someone can achieve their educational goals in a single-gender college, and feels more comfortable there, that is where he or she should be. In fact, too bad that those colleges do not have more options for courses of study than they currently do. This would expand the number of people that could achieve their goals in such institutions.
haifa,
So you are moida that this type of environment may be highly detrimental and even spiritually fatal to a Jew.
BS”D
Didn’t the Lubavitcher Rebbe Z”L attend the Sorbonne? In France, yet!!!!!
Actually no one is sure of this (although it seems as if he did attend some classes there) but what is known is that any university classes he took in Germany and at an engineering institute in France were of a technical (engineering or mathematics) nature.
I posted that “scientific knowledge and the great works of literature, music and other culture is also inspired by exactly the same source that inspires Jewish culture.”
And Joseph posted: “Unequivocally incorrect. (And Jewish so-called “culture” is what the Torah defines it to be.)”
So Joseph, you don’t feel that Beethoven’s 6th symphony or Bach’s “Art of the Fugue” is inspired by HKB”H?
From where do you think that they received the inspiration?
How about the inspiration for the ideas of Pasteurization of milk?
Anesthesia in surgery?
Vaccinations?
The periodic table of elements?
The double helix?
Blood typing?
Atomic theory?
Are you denying HKB”H as the source of human creativity/knowledge?”
starwolf, Today for the right price anyone can get a piece of paper that says semicha on it. That doesn’t make whatever such individual(‘s) do kosher.
starwolf, On the same token that the Church liturgy is quote “inspired by HKB’H.”
Joseph: In general I would say it is better to postpone college until after marriage (for both boys and girls). However, like any generalization, there are exceptions. In some cases it would not be detrimental. In fact, there are probably even a few cases where it would strengthen them.
BS”D
As for classical music being inspired by Hashem, no, sorry, it is Hellenism, inspired by the ideas of the Greek philosophers and sometimes also used for notzrus. Listen or don’t listen, but unless you are using the music as a chazzan with clear approval from a reliable rov, don’t elevate it except in the way you elevate animal waste by using it as a fertilizer.
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