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Winnie The Pooh +1
Actually, I think one of the solutions to the Shidduch Crisis is for girls to realize that it is not a crisis and they can live fulfilling, meaningful lives even without marriage. While it is important to do hishtadlus and daven to get married, it is not healthy to live one’s life feeling like I am just waiting to get married, and if I don’t get married, my life has no meaning.
There have always been people who didn’t or couldn’t get married. And if there is any truth to all the numbers and calculations, it is not possible for every girl to get married, so why should she feel her life is meaningless? Also, at a certain point, it is impossible to be “mekayim” the Mitzvah of “pru u’rvu” anyhow, so why get depressed about something impossible?
LuL: The fact that women in general want to get married more than men do, is straight from the pages of Gemarah. That idea is used many times throughout Talmud.
And, not that anyone has to chas v’sholom prove anything from our holy Talmud, it is interesting to note that there are so many single support groups, ideas how to stay happy etc. Even here that issue is generally the one that practically dominates the CR.
Lilmod, I loved your last post. That was brilliant and I think you raised a lot of really important points.
WTP -“I don’t think Rabbis telling women they don’t have a chiyuv to get married is a reason for the shidduch crisis- it wouldn’t be a crisis if the singles want to be single and now have an excuse to do what they want. the crisis comes from the fact that women want to get married but can’t for many reasons that have been discussed here multiple times”
FYI – you’re correct when it comes to younger women. There are many reasons – a lot have been mentioned in the CR about it.
I was talking about why men and women are having a hard time getting married when they’re older! This is a crisis for older adults. A lot have been married and have kids from before and they aren’t interested in having more!
Gofish 🙂 Thanks! You always have such nice things to say to me!
LU ,
you’re overestimating women, possibly based upon,those in your millieu
In many or most communities, CHasha”d is real, (however they’ll pretend )
The fact that women in general want to get married more than men do, is straight from the pages of Gemarah. That idea is used many times throughout Talmud.
Times are different. It was almost impossible for a single women to subsist alone. So much so that being married to a rapist was considered better than being single.
health, when people say shidduch crisis, I don’t think they are talking about older previously married adults with kids who want or don’t want to get remarried. Or are you referring to older never married singles whose choices are limited since the divorcees/widowers of their age do not want to remarry? I don’t have any statistics, but I would guess that divorcees/widowers who want to remarry far outnumber those who don’t.
I would not use the word crisis to describe, say, widows in their 60s or more who would like to get remarried but can’t find anyone. Sad and lonely for them, yes, but not a communal crisis.
To follow up on LuL’s post, in a way, the word crisis is self-fulfilling. Girls know there is a shidduch crisis, so their whole approach to dating is more desperate even when they are just starting at a young age. Maybe they will start dating younger that they would really want to, so as not to “miss the boat.” maybe their decisions about who to date and who to marry are compromised by the thought in back of their mind that if it is not this one, maybe they won’t get married at all. And if they are not married by 21, they begin to panic that they becoming one of those infamous statistics, and that just activates the crisis mode even more!
Nope. HaSHem hasen’t changed the essence or the makeup of the two different species. I really do NOT want to go into it, I’m really not comfortable getting deep into it. I’ll just state it as thus:
Women by nature tend to crave close relationship. It’s inherent, deep within them. Men by nature do not NEED this connection-relationship, their desire lie elsewhere (not for now).
This is the powerful “glue” HaShem in His wisdom set in motion. When you come to think of it, it almost seems miraculous- why should a women submit herself to a husband (and all it entails), go though childbirth etc.. And why in the world would a happy-go-lucky man want to link himself up with a woman just for some external features or other senseless attributes? It’s these miraculous forces at work. A woman knows she’s forgoing her freedom, ???? ????? ??, nevertheless ??? ??? ?????? she craves this, and does so most willingly. Man knows (most of them at least) what he’s in for by the time he’s ready to step under the Chuppa (unless they did a good job hiding), that’s the ??? ??? ??? ????? because ??? ??? ??? ?????. As Chazal say elsewhere ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?????. All for one cause, to effect a “family”. That’s why we put the pasuk ???? ???? ??? ??? on a Tnaim.
Back to the first point, the deep relationship part, it is was and will be mostly the female’s inyan in the marriage. As I pointed out, that’s why there are all the single female support groups. In general, an unmarried female feels missing something.
Attention all yet unmarried, ??”? ?????!!! Then this whole narishkite won’t be nogea!!
LF- Amen! Very Nice! Maybe you should rewrite this on the “Why was woman created thread?”
I am astonished the Moderators let this topic be added for discussion to the Coffee Room. This is an insulting and vulgar topic. I believe that they as men, fail to see the inappropriateness in this.
I also would add that there ought to be at least 1 woman sitting as moderator on their panel.
I hear you but it was more of a tongue-in-cheek for most posters
They didn’t want to start doing it, they only wanted to practice… read the heading.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14243&st=&pgnum=3
He does not say straight out that it’s not a chiyuv; he says straight out that we do not force.
Is following an eitzah tova to avoid chashad optional? This he doesn’t say, and neither did Rav Leff, unless he knew that you were in a situation of chashad (chashad can be avoided without necessarily getting married – see ???? ???. http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?mfid=37532&rid=3160)
Thank you Moderator who replied ” I hear you…”
You may be new to the Board of Moderators, I dont know. But that is a humble response and I can tell you in my 7 or 8 years of being a coffee room addict, I have never heard of anything like that from a Moderator here, before.
I’m glad to hear that you think it was meant tongue-in-cheek. I know I’m gullible, but it really seemed to me that some of the posters here were serious. And I’m still not convinced. Are you sure that no one is being serious?
ARWSF- I have noticed that the moderators seem to be more responsive lately, and I also appreciate it. I particularly appreciate it when they explain why they are deleting something! Thanks mods!
Amen to the moderators!!! Thank you indeed and shavua tov 🙂
always runs with scissors fast,
Having an Open Discussion bothers you?
Why do some users just assume that all moderators are male?
“Why do some users just assume that all moderators are male?”
Where do you see that?
The prohibition against polygamy for most Jewry has been in affect for over a thousand years although the prohibition could have been permitted 776 years ago. If the greatest Rabbis in the past 7 centuries didn’t overturn this prohibition suddenly some poster on the coffee room is suddenly going to overturn it.
It is not going to happen I don’t care how great you think the Rabbis and Rabbinuts who post on this thread are. Nobody in his right mind wants more than one wife at a time.
The question is will having more wives increase the Jewish Population, which in turn will hasten the Guellah (Coming of Masiach) or not. Will he come before all souls that need to be born are born?
Polygamy should be permitted because a family can’t live on one Kollel wife’s wages anymore.
Abba_S, in some parts of the world, polygamy is widely practiced. Are you saying that all those polygamists are crazy?
What’s wrong with saying that most people in the world are crazy? Don’t you think that’s the case?
yehudayona – Yakov the Patriarch & Shlomo the King had multiple wifes and at that time it was considered normal. What I am trying to say is that no one in today’s Western Jewish society would consider polygamy normal. As to others practicing it the Christians believe JC was born by immaculate conception. If that isn’t crazy what is?
Geordie613: Ummm… two wives mean double the children (or more because wives can double up with more efficiency, presumably).
Thus, how likely is it that two wives with double the children at least, with the need for bigger houses (and possibly enough room to host multiple in-laws) be more financially efficient? The husband would also need to spend at least some time with each wife, which would reduce his time to learn Torah.
Also women used to die in childbirth way more often, so a second wife was like a back-up-Ema plan. Then again, seven centuries ago women still died in childbirth at higher rates. The one-wife thing was a response to cultural pressures at the time.
I wonder what a Kollel husband would say?
lightbrite – the point is that if it’s the wife salary that is supporting the family, if there are two wives, then there is double the salary.
And there are not twice as many people, since there is still only one husband. There are no more than double the number of children – in fact there would probably be less than double the number of children.
And the house does not need to be twice as big. (and even if it did, a house that is twice as big should not cost double). You would still only need one of most things – one kitchen, one fridge, one stove, one oven, one washing machine, one dryer, etc.
You could save on babysitting costs since they could take turns.
And most things end up being cheaper per person when you have more people. It would be kind of like the opposite of a divorce situation. Divorces are expensive because you have to maintain two households for one family. Here, you only have to maintain one household for two families, so it should come out cheaper.
Oh, and btw, I think it was a joke (one that I have heard before).
“Nobody in his right mind wants more than one wife at a time.”
Because??
Because it usually involves two shviggers.
As to others practicing it the Christians believe JC was born by immaculate conception. If that isn’t crazy what is?
I’m not sure whether I should point out that Mormons don’t believe in immaculate conception, That fundamentalist are a tiny minority (if it wasn’t for polygamy you wouldn’t know they existed), Or that the poster has no idea what immaculate conception even means.
Why do you think he doesn’t know what it means? I think all xians believe in it and they are a lot of people. There are more xians in the world than polygamists, so he has a valid point.
What if all the single men get married and there are still single women?
Why do you think he doesn’t know what it means?
The same reason I think you don’t know what means. The context is wrong, and If you knew what it means you wouldn’t be asking.
“if all the single men get married and there are still single women?”
Then there will be single women. Or they will marry the guys who get divorced or become widowers r”l.
Frankly, I don’t think all the single men are getting so fast. I see guys who just keep getting older and older and are still single, and some of them still even have the same ridiculous age limits.
LU -“I see guys who just keep getting older and older and are still single, and some of them still even have the same ridiculous age limits.”
Why do you say ridiculous? Some of them want to make sure that the woman can have children!
Health – if they had been willing to get married at 28 to a girl who was 25 instead of saying she was too old for them, they would have had kids. Now they are in their 50’s and it is less likely they will have kids. If they keep finding reasons to say no to people, they will continue getting older and be less likely to have kids, and even less likely to get married at all, since most girls don’t want to marry a guy that age who has never been married.
I’m not judging (at least not the people, just their actions). I understand that people have issues and hangups, etc, and they don’t choose to have problems. I’m just pointing out that it is a problem.
“Why do you think he doesn’t know what it means?
The same reason I think you don’t know what means. The context is wrong, and If you knew what it means you wouldn’t be asking.”
I know what it means. I think you missed his context, and that’s why you thought the context was wrong.
He is pointing out that the fact that many people believe in something does not prove that it is not a crazy belief. Many people believe in immaculate conception, but it is a crazy belief.
What doesn’t make sense about that, and why would that imply that someone doesn’t know what it means?
by the way, why don’t you have a name? And why do you have a signature?
LU -“Health – if they had been willing to get married at 28 to a girl who was 25 instead of saying she was too old for them, they would have had kids.”
At that age there’s nothing wrong to want a younger girl!
Stop telling men what to do!
“Now they are in their 50’s and it is less likely they will have kids.”
Men can have kids until 70’s – 80’s! A lot of women, once they reach 50, can’t have kids! So a man, who’s in his 50’s, will only consider a woman in her 40’s or younger!
Health, you totally missed my point.
LU -“Health, you totally missed my point.”
OK. What is it (if you have one)?!?
You know it wouldn’t hurt to tone down the tone. Especially if you are looking for a wife. You never know who’s listening in….
You can’t wait till you’re 50 and expect women to wait for you. If they can have a younger man, they will choose to.
“You know it wouldn’t hurt to tone down the tone. Especially if you are looking for a wife. You never know who’s listening in….”
I wonder what Health sounds like in real life.
I bet he’s really shy and quiet.
Mr.Yidd -“You can’t wait till you’re 50 and expect women to wait for you. If they can have a younger man, they will choose to.”
I agree! IDK anybody who has done that!
Don’t tell me that you’re planning on doing that?!?
Meno -“I bet he’s really shy and quiet.”
You would have been correct about me years ago!
Nowadays – I’m exactly the way I post!
LU, super quick aside
dash is right you dont know what immaculate conception means and neither does abba
He said “As to others practicing it the Christians believe JC was born by immaculate conception. If that isn’t crazy what is?”
This is incorrect. They believe Mary was born via immaculate conception. not that it really matters obviously. but if stating facts even if not our beliefs (to say the least) they should still be correct
“This is incorrect. They believe Mary was born via immaculate conception. “
After about 4 minutes of research, I have determined that the source of confusion here is in the term “Immaculate Conception” (notice the capitalization).
The term doesn’t refer to a general phenomenon, rather a specific event. The belief is that both Mary and Yoshke were conceived without a father, but the term “Immaculate Conception” refers specifically to the conception of Yoshke
I feel funny discussing Christian theology, but immaculate conception has nothing to do with being “born without a father” that is a sepperate belief.
Immaculate Conception refers to the Conception of MARY not yoshke. (Though many Christians misunderstand this too)
No reason to do to much gogling. Wikipedia imagines well.
I feel funny discussing Christian theology, but immaculate conception has nothing to do with being “born without a father” that is a sepperate belief.
Immaculate Conception refers to the Conception of MARY not yoshke. (Though many Christians misunderstand this too)
No reason to do to much gogling. Wikipedia imagines well.
OK according to Wikepedia Immaculate Conception refers to the Conception of MARY and Virgin Birth refers to yoshke. I am sorry for using the wrong term for JC
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