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Charlie -“Health, what’s the source that women have a chiyuv to get married?”
Charlie – I thought that you were learned! Shulchan Aruch Even Haezer.
Charlie – Women do not have a chiyuv to get married. I have asked a sheilah about it many times.
First of all, please don’t call me Charlie, as that is not my name. Second, can you be more specific where in Even Haezer?
Joseph, do YOU personally think polygamy is a good idea?
And btw, regarding single women who might prefer being a second wife to being no one’s wife, even if that’s true, most married women would prefer that their husbands not have a second wife! Even regarding those women who think they would prefer being a second wife to being single, I have a feeling they would change their minds pretty quickly once they were in such a situation.
Gofish: “Geez, the misogyny in the Coffee Room sometimes astounds me.”
That is for sure!!! Actually, though, I don’t think that most of the people here are like that. I find that most of the posters here seem to be quite respectful. And of course, aside from you, no one here knows my true identity :), so they have no clue who they are speaking about! (not that that makes rudeness or misogyny appropriate).
Found it! I just located my source for the fact that women don’t have a chiyuv to get married! The reason I know this is because I asked Rav Leff about it years ago. I just remembered that the shiur (at which I asked him this question) was recorded and is on his website. If anyone is interested, you can go to Rav Zev Leff’s website, go to the Homepage, click on “Special Shiurim”, scroll down until you get to “Shidduchim -don’t despair”. The shiurim go in order of years and this one was given in 5770 (it doesn’t say the year, but the one before it says 5669 and the one after it says 5770).
If you fastforward to 30/31 minutes, you can hear me asking him this question and him answering.
By the way, it’s a good shiur for any of the “older singles” present to listen to in any case.
Except for the exceptions, what is the benefit of having another wife? In addition, currently most men cannot support one wife and family so it would be assur to obtain an additional wife for this reason alone.
Matan1 -“Second, can you be more specific where in Even Haezer?”
I previously posted where it is – in the topic that I started called -“Who wants to be a Tzadaikes like Rus?”, Page 3.
LU -“Women do not have a chiyuv to get married. I have asked a sheilah about it many times.
Found it! I just located my source for the fact that women don’t have a chiyuv to get married! The reason I know this is because I asked Rav Leff about it years ago. I just remembered that the shiur (at which I asked him this question) was recorded and is on his website.”
Obviously, if you’re telling the truth, he made a mistake!
Please call him up and tell him to look in S”A.
Agreed. It’s only viable for the wealthy. It isn’t something most people should engage in.
Joe -“Agreed. It’s only viable for the wealthy. It isn’t something most people should engage in.”
That counts you out! You don’t gotta a dime!
But in the yeshiva world, the wife supports the family while the husband learns in kollel. So it would make sense for there to be multiple wives so there would be more income.
There was a story in the news last year about someplace in rural India where one of the main duties of wives is to fetch water from a distant source. Polygamy is legal for Muslims in India but it’s illegal for others. Despite this, among Hindus in this location, widows often become additional wives so they can help with the water fetching. You can google “water wives India” to find more on this.
There is also pilegesh as another choice; according to a daas yochid.
I am not sure if it’s only for the very rich. Government programs are based on the number members in the family. The more members the more aid.
ksamaychacha …ytzeercha…bgan eden mikedem..One Odom, One Chava
In Israel, Habayit Hayehudi Hashalem (the Complete Jewish Home party) is trying to get the Rabbinate to approve polygamy. The lack of Jewish men to go around is harming Jewish women from marrying. Less marriages; less babies. The Muslims have multiple wives and more kids. The Sefardi never outlawed polygamy like the Ashkenazi did. Even the Ashkenazi set a limit on the prohibition; which has since expired. I think the way to solve the shidduch crisis is by allowing & even encouraging polygamy. If the wife objects, the husband would respect her wishes. So if the 1st wife is okay with it; it’s halachically allowed; and it will help solve the shidduch crisis, why not?
Joseph and Lenny – Would YOU want to be married to someone who didn’t care whether or not you had other wives?? That doesn’t sound like a great relationship to me!
I prefer oragami to polygamy, and there are no halachic issues.
lilmod ulelamaid,
sounds like more than a little bias in your challenge?
Plus, let’s admit more than just a few women would rather be second wife to a ‘winner’ than sole wife to a so called ‘loser’
for the record ‘Sh’lo La’shaves ye’tzarah’ means women have an obligation to populate the world (through legitimate methods) as well as men
Definitely not worth it imagine having two shviggers!!!!
There is a fundamental problem with the question presented. It fails to inquire about Jewish women participating in polygamous marriages. Now, oregamic marriages don’t have that problem. Any or all the spouses can do oregami, regardless of the other spouses’ wishes.
It is time for truth: If you listen to the recording I mentioned above, that is precisely the question posed to Rav Leff. His response was that it’s a Mitzvah but not chiyuv.
huju, try again. Not oragami, not oregami, but origami.
To yehudayona: And I suppose its not oregano, or oragano, but origano.
lilmod ulelamaid -” His (Rav Leff) (your spelling) response was that it’s a Mitzvah but not chiyuv.” I didn’t listen to the recording . But a Mitzvah is a positive commandment which is an obligation and a Chiyuv by defination is also an obligation so I am not sure what are you or the Rabbi are trying to say. Either it’s a Mitzvah and your obligated or it’s a Mitzvah that is dependent on time in which case there is no obligation for females to perform it, but is marriage a positive commandment dependent on time?
A Mitzvah does not necessarily indicate a Chiyuv. There is such a thing as a Mitzvah Sheaino metzuva v’oseh (A Mitzvah which you are not commanded to do but you do anyhow). This means that you are doing something praiseworthy and you receive a reward for it, but you are not OBLIGATED to do it.
Most of the Mitzvos that are incumbent on men but not women fall in the category of Mitzvah sheaino metzuveh v’oseh for women. I am not obligated to shake the Lulav & Esrog or sit in the Sukkah on Sukkos but if I do so, I am fulfilling a Mitzvah and do receive a reward. And if I’m Ashkenazi, I even make a bracha saying the words “And He commanded us” even though I personally was not commanded and have no obligation to do it.
There is also something called a “Mitzvah kiyumis” which refers to something that is not obligatory on anyone but if someone does it, they are doing a Mitzvah and receive a reward. For example, Rav Moshe Feinstein holds that the Mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisrael falls in this category, and while it is not obligatory, one is fulfilling a Mitzvah if he does so.
Of course, one can argue that if something is a Mitzvah even if it’s not obligatory, why would someone choose not to do it? And I think that the answer would be that their priorities and “cheshbonos” would be different. For example, if there is a particular Mitzvah that I am not obligated in as a girl, and there may be hashkafa problems (i.e. feminism) with my doing it, then it would be a bigger Mitzvah not to do it.
In the case of marriage, according to halacha, a girl can decide that while it is a Mitzvah to get married and have children, it would not make sense for her to marry someone whom she does not want to marry (for whatever reason) in order to fulfill this particular Mitzvah. While a boy should also not marry someone whom he really does not want to marry,it seems to me that his reasons would have to be more substantial than a girl’s would since he does have an obligation to get married.
Gofish -“Geez, the misogyny in the Coffee Room sometimes astounds me.”
I just looked up the definition of misogyny. I don’t hate women, not even my ex-wife! And I want to get married again.
LU -“In the case of marriage, according to halacha, a girl can decide that while it is a Mitzvah to get married and have children, it would not make sense for her to marry someone whom she does not want to marry (for whatever reason) in order to fulfill this particular Mitzvah. While a boy should also not marry someone whom he really does not want to marry,it seems to me that his reasons would have to be more substantial than a girl’s would since he does have an obligation to get married.”
They both have a Chiyov, but for different reasons! If Rav Leff said it’s just a Mitzvah, he made a mistake!
Wanting to get married is not a “stira” to hating women.
lilmod ulelamaid – If marriage is a “Mitzvah Kiyumis” and R’ Moshe held that the Rambam held that Yishav Eretz Yisroel is also a “Mitzvah Kiyumis”. If you are living in Israel you have taken on the Mitzvah of Yishav Eretz Yisroel, to populate the land of Israel, and to populate the land you need to marry someone. Also the reason they want to draft the Yeshiva Bochurim is because they want them to SHARE THE BURDEN for protecting Israel. If this is true shouldn’t you also Share the Burden for giving birth to the next generation of Yidden.
Also a person who isn’t commanded but fulfills the Mitzvah gets less credit than the one who is commanded to do so. Thus according to you the wife who goes through the pain of childbirth gets less credit than the husband who didn’t feel a thing unless you count sympathy pain. I don’t think it’s fair.
A Bas Kol comes from the heaven 40 days before a child is born (it’s a song now) saying so & so is married to the daughter of so & so. A girl by remaining single is causing her male counterpart to remain single also, nullify a Positive Commandment Obligation.
PLEASE NOTE: I am not trying to pressure you into marrying anyone. I only want to understand the logic behind your train of thought. Please forgive me if I have offended you in anyway.
Abba, Health,
Pashtus If a women is beyond childbearing age or unable to bear children , She isn’t commanded to
Unless there is an issue of Chasha”d
Gofish ,LU,
“the misogyny in the Coffee Room sometimes astounds me.”
Good means for avoiding discussions ?Ad hominems?
Gofish ,LU,
Plus what most consider Normative in modern society is at it’s root anti male
Some redress would be good?
My train of thought was as follows:
1. Health said that women have a chiyuv to get married.
2. I said that that they don’t.
3. You asked me how it can be a Mitzvah and not a chiyuv.
4. I explained how it can be a Mitzvah and not a chiyuv.
I think the logic behind my train of thought is quite clear. Would you like to explain the logic behind your train of thought and how anything you wrote has anything to do with the above? (that was a rhetorical quesion.)
edited by the Shmiras HaLashon squad
“edited by the Shmiras HaLashon squad”
I appreciate your concern for Shmiras Haloshon, but I think you are a little bit confused about the halachos.
There was no Loshon Hora here. I was referring to a comment that everyone here can see! It would only be a problem if I mentioned a comment that had been said off-line.
If someone offends me, it is not Loshon Hora to tell them that I was offended by what they said, and in fact according to halacha I have an obligation to do so.
If you are really concerned about Shmiras Haloshon, the original comment should not have been printed since offending someone is loshon hora. That is true of any offensive comments made by any posters in the CR.
there is no question your choice of expression would have offended.
“there is no question your choice of expression would have offended.”
That I hear. I thought it was the whole thing that you had an issue with. Thank you for clarifying and allowing me to express myself more appropriately!
By the way, I appreciate it when you let me know the reasons for the deletions.
LU,
‘Sh’lo La’shaves ye’tzarah’ is only a mitzvah?
“LU,
‘Sh’lo La’shaves ye’tzarah’ is only a mitzvah?”
That is what Rav Zev Leff Shlit”a said, and I trust him. It’s in the recording that I mentioned above that can be found on his website (I gave directions in a previous post in this thread).
Is he assuming there’s no chashad? Why?
I don’t think the Rambam says it’s a chiyuv because of chashad. I think he just says it’s a good idea.
Personally, I always had trouble understanding that Rambam (not to imply that my issues understanding the Rambam have any bearing on halacha, chas v’shalom, or on the truth of his words!). I have never noticed that there is a problem with chashad by older single girls, but that is a problem with older single boys.
What does the Shulchan Aruch say?
don’t know, and I don’t have it at home to look it up now. Health seems to think it says that it’s a chiyuv, but Rav Leff says it’s not, and if it said it in the Shulchan Aruch, Rav Leff would have known.
Personally, I trust Rav Leff on this.
Why don’t you look it up?
Shkoyach DY! So it’s pretty clear that according to both the Shulchan Aruch and the Rema, women have no chiyuv to get married.
I just read the Aruch HaShulchan on the topic (Even HaEzer, 1/1-3). He explains the whole inyan, and it was very interesting.
His basic points are:
1. Women are not obligated in “Pru u’rvu” and can choose to remain single.
2. When Noach left the Taivah, the women may have had been obligated in the Mitzvah because at that point, the men couldn’t have fulfilled the Mitzvah w/o them, but this is not true of later generations.
3. Getting married to avoid “chashad” is an “aitza tova” (good idea), but not an obligation.
4. Whether or not “chashad” applies depends on the particular place. It is never an obligation, and it doesn’t even necessarily apply in all places (I would think that it doesn’t apply nowadays at all – I have never heard that it is an issue today).
5. Some say that women are obligated in the Mitzvah of “Sheves”, but the Aruch HaShulchan rejects this.
6. One of his proofs that women are not obligated in Sheves is the fact that according to halacha, if someone’s husband can’t have children, it is not grounds for her to divorce him (which it would be if she had a chiyuv to have children).
Another interesting thing he says is that women want to get married more than men do. I thought that was interesting because I would have thought the opposite.
Taking out from the Shulchan Aruch that he holds its not a chiyuv is a huge stretch. ??”? certainly doesn’t seem to hold that way (cf. ??? ????, however, see ???? ?????).
I will try to check A”H later.
DY -huh? The Shulchan Aruch says straight out that it’s not a chiyuv. I just checked the B’eer Haitaiv and he says likewise.
Check out the Aruch HaShulchan when you have a chance.
DY -“Taking out from the Shulchan Aruch that he holds its not a chiyuv is a huge stretch. ??”? certainly doesn’t seem to hold that way (cf. ??? ????, however, see ???? ?????).”
That’s one of the reasons that there is a Shidduch crisis; because some “so-called” Rabbis tell everyone that women don’t have a Chiyuv to get married! Paskining like the ??? ???? that brings down only one Shitta, that says it’s only an Eitza Tova for women to get married is wrong! Most hold it’s a Chiyuv! Because – Halachah K’rabbim!
“Check out the Aruch HaShulchan when you have a chance.”
Sorry, I just realized that A”H meant Aruch Hashulchan.
I don’t think Rabbis telling women they don’t have a chiyuv to get married is a reason for the shidduch crisis- it wouldn’t be a crisis if the singles want to be single and now have an excuse to do what they want. the crisis comes from the fact that women want to get married but can’t for many reasons that have been discussed here multiple times.
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