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Rwndk1, going on shelichut is by definition temporary although unfortunately some are davka tempted to stay by offers of gigantic salaries (and marbitz Tora in the sense of beating it). It is the Tora version of being a diplomat and therefore is not really leaving EY. On the other hand, there are many opportunities to be marbitz Tora here.
Avi K -“What about someone who thinks that it is better for Jews to besubject forced conversion to Islam as opposed to the chance that they will be be observant in EY (as are many Yemenites) and if not them their children or grandchildren?”
Again you’re in your Zionist dreamland. The Jews in Yemen weren’t & aren’t forced to convert. If they were, there weren’t be any Jews left there!
But in Israel – they were subjected to Shmad!
Sam 2 -“Health: I mean, Jews were enslaved or killed in Yemen relatively often. You really need to learn your history.”
So it’s better to be Shmaded up in Israel?!? You really need to learn your history.
Health: Now you’re changing your track. Before you said they weren’t killed in Yemen. I just pointed out that’s not true. It’s okay to make a different argument, but don’t respond aggressively as if I wasn’t responding to your point. It’s just not a nice way to debate.
I just wonder how many of the people posting on this thread actually
1) Live in Israel
2) If don’t will be convinced by this thread to move.
thetruth1234:
Due to the oaths, it is simply impossible for all Jews to emigrate to E”Y prior to Mashiach’s coming BB”A. (It’s also just as forbidden to antagonize the umos.)
So it therefore follows that this mitzva is clearly not mandatory at this time.
I have seen the following two options:
At best, it is an “optional” mitzva, meaning that although everyone is patur due to the oaths, if you nonetheless AS AN INDIVIDUAL AND IN PEACE manage to live in e”Y then you do get a mitzva. Regardless, everyone is patur from doing so. That’s at best. Otherwise, it is not in force at all, for anyone, until Mashiach comes BB”A, and living in E”Y does not inherently give you any additional mitzva versus living outside E”Y.
But, again, this mitzva of Yishuv E”Y CANNOT be in full force today.
Rav Ovadia Yosef Zatza”L discusses this in a teshuva and, at the end, quotes the Satmar Rav’s VaYoel Moshe on this. (So much for “the Satmar Shita” being only Satmar…)
VoYoel Moshe, of course, also has a piece on, among other Zionist errors, how the Zionists’ “for only 1,000 years” distortion from Rav Chaim Vital is totally erroneous.
Sam2 and Avi K:
Health is correct, of course, that the Jews were far, far, far better off in Arab lands and in E”Y as well before the Zionists invaded E”Y. Your own leader admitted as much. No, it wasn’t always perfect there. But it was, again, far, far, far better, both in ruchnius and in “safety” than the disaster that the Zionists have created.
The Zionists also cannot answer for their many misdeeds against the Jews from Teiman, for example, who had their mesorah intact going back to Bayis Rishon!!
There was no such a thing in Yemen as a “secular Jew” because the government simply didn’t permit it. Whereas, when the Zionists got their evil claws on the Teimanim, they shmaded them, threw away their sefarim, kisvei yad, etc. and did all they could to ENSURE they would be “secular” and, worse, Zionist heretical and idolatrous Jews like the Zionists. That’s besides all the other evil the Zionists perpetrated against them.
Yet there are Jews today, with a century of history and more, that still fall prey to this idol.
Health, it’s better to be “shmaded up” in Yemen? In Israel, even those who do go OTD can come back and if not them their children or grandchildren. Not to mention doing things for Am Yisrael instead of some terror organization.
stop blaming zionism for making Jews become not frum. In North Africa many Jews went to France instead of Israel are they more religious than the ones who went to Israel? After the 1979 revolution the majority of Iranian Jews went to America do you really think that they are more religious than the ones who went to Israel?
90% of Jews became non religious between 1800-1930 and it had nothing to do with zionism and everything to do with the freedom they got in the countries they were living in. Why cant you accept reality and stop blaming zionism for every problem in the last 100 years
Because Israel purports itself to be the JEWISH STATE and instead of promoting Yiddishkeit by supplying the Teimani Jews with sforim, tzitis, ehrliche melamdim, kosher food, etc. they DAVKA sent them to irreligious neighborhoods or Kibbutzim where kids were routinely separated from parents, kidnapped some of their kids, didn’t give frum Jews access to them, cut off boys’ peyos, indoctrinated them with the worst Zionist ideals and encouraged hefkeros and you’re comparing this to Jews who couldn’t stand by the nisyonos of Democracy in other countries?
A) You don’t know if your assertion holds up numbers wise, do you know the value of ONE JEWISH NESHAMA?
B) Would you have wanted to be treated this way?
C) Perhaps the Yemenites were stronger and had more religious upbringing than those from other countries you are comparing them to
D) Do you blame the Czars for taking away Kantonists from Yiddishkeit or give them the green light because most Russian Jews assimilated eventually?
E) EVEN IF the outcome would have been the same without the Zionist’s “BENEVOLENT INTERVENTION”, they were blatantly wrong!
Jazar:
As Mammele noted, Israel fraudulently claims the mantle of “Jewish” State. This is a “Big Lie”, of course, as the Zionist state is not a Jewish state but rather is a Zionist state which happens to be run by some who were born Jewish (and others who are not at all Jewish).
That people still believe in this idol and cover up (among much else) the Zionists’ atrocious behavior towards the Yemenites, how the Zionists INTENTIONALLY AND ACTIVELY shmaded them, which means that, as the nominal “Jewish State”, Israel intentionally and actively destroying their Jewish religious observance, something unparalleled in the European societies you mentioned.
Why can’t you accept reality and not expect to whitewash/ignore/deny every problem of Zionism the past 100 years?
Avi K:
Please see the previous posts.
Going back to the time of the Melachim, there were only 600 that didn’t bow to the Baal. That’s even with Eliyahu HaNavi in their midst. But when he called them out on it at Har HaCarmel, they at least said Hashem Hu HaElokim. Unfortunately, we don’t have a navi today to do so about Zionism. Fortunately, all it takes is a PURE Torah outlook to understand the simple truth of the gedolim’s many condemnations of Zionism (of all stripes).
The gedolim have clearly and unequivocally showed that the Zionists have no answers (including Rabbis Kook and Soloveitchik and on down). It is a great shame for people who think they are Torah-believing Jews to believe in this abominable false idol and heresy of Zionism that has also done cataclysmic damage to our People, R”L L”A.
1. Israel does provide Tanachs to ulpan graduates, IDF inductees, etc. It is not the purview of the government to provide them generally. Certainly not the central government. Those who think so have been influenced by the socialists.
2. In Israel Jewish holidays and Shabbat are official days of rest (and most governmental offices are even closed duing Chol HaMoed), IDF kitchens are kosher (and during Pesach there are even signs that say “Do not bring chametz onto the base – that’s an order!”), during Sukkot officials welcome visitors in their sukkot, dairy companies advertise recipes for the Three Weeks, buses have stickers facing the front seats that say ???? ???? ????, etc., etc. When I worked for an insurance company in Tel Aviv someone who wanted to interpret a policy strictly was told not be like Bet Shammai butto be like Bet Hillel by someone who was not wearing a kippa. An apparently non-frum teacher, when told that she skipped a line in the textbook said that it did not matter as “??? ????? ?? ?????”.
3. The assertions of “shading up” and “idolatry” are so ridiculous that I really have to wonder about those who use such terms.
Hakatan,
you are doing exactly what the “zionists” you hate so much have done. Both of you seperate the torah from ey, they picked ey and you picked the torah.
The real truth is that ey is an integral part of the torah.
A small example of how you are in denial about ey, you claim that the best case scenario is that it is an optional mitzvah, however the ramban says chiyuv, the yaavetz says chiyuv, the chazon ish say chiyuv.
whenever you are confronted with this, you immediately change the topic to how bad the zionists are.
Quote from HaKatan:
“meaning that although everyone is patur due to the oaths”
Your anti-Zionism has led you to violating Ikkarei Emunah. Hatorah Hazos Lo Tehei Muchlefes.
Sam 2 -“Health: Now you’re changing your track. Before you said they weren’t killed in Yemen. I just pointed out that’s not true. It’s okay to make a different argument, but don’t respond aggressively as if I wasn’t responding to your point. It’s just not a nice way to debate.”
Let me tell you something – I responded the way I did because you’re constantly defending Zionism & resort to lying! I posted previously – “Did you ever hear of Yemen and Iran? These have very strict Muslim rules, but the Jews there aren’t all enslaved or killed!”
I wrote “ALL”. So before you respond to me – think about it. This way your post’s will be rational!
Avi K -“Health, it’s better to be “shmaded up” in Yemen?”
Stop with your Zionist lies!
As far as I know, they remain Frum for thousands of years, even still now.
And Israel started in ’48 & a few years later, in the ’50’s, they were Shmading up the Yeminite Jews!
Simple answer based on Igros Moshe EH 1:102 is it a mitzvah kiyumas? Yes,is it a chyiuv? No. He basis this off Rav Chaim one of the balei Tosfos(kesuvos 110).
Health: Just one simple question; do you advocate the dismantling of the medinah?
Sam, do you wear tzitziot? That is also a mitzva kiumit (according to those opinions that there is such a thing. BTW, Rav Ovadia (Minchat Shmuel 14, p. 252 sof dibbur elkeh sheraiti) says that if it is an obligation and proves it from the fact that a spouse can compel another spouse to make aliya (Shulchan Aruch EH 75:3-4 – and see Pitchei Teshuva). Rav Avraham Shaprira says that there is no such thing as a mitzva kiumit. If you wear a four-cornered garment it must have tzitziot. If you live you must live in EY. Rav Eliezer Waldenberg (Responsa Tzitz Eliezer 7:48:12) also says that it is an obligatory mitzva in our time, ESPECIALLY NOW THAT WE HAVE A STATE.
Health: “Let me tell you something – I responded the way I did because you’re constantly defending Zionism & resort to lying! I posted previously – “Did you ever hear of Yemen and Iran? These have very strict Muslim rules, but the Jews there aren’t all enslaved or killed!
I wrote “ALL”. So before you respond to me – think about it. This way your post’s [sic] will be rational!”
You are very right. I apologize profusely. Life was so much better for Jews under Nazi Germany than under Zionist rule, wasn’t it?
On the topic of shmad I’d like to say that I don’t think hayom making aliyah is a problem of shmad as some may be asserting here – but on the other hand what the tzionim did to the sefardim during the early days of this country is absolutely disgusting. If it wasn’t for their strong emunah p’shuta as well as the work of certain gedolim like Reb Yoilish and the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and probably more than anyone else Rav Ovadia ztz”l there wouldn’t be any frum or even traditional sefardim left. My wife’s family came from Morocco and my mother in law was initially the only one of 11 kids to go off and intermarry. B”H she came back and remarried a yid, but today of those other siblings she is the only one frum and almost the only one married to a Jew. When asked how her family could just drop Torah when they were all frum in Morocco she said everyone always told them the medinah is the mashiach you’ve been waiting for all these centuries so now you don’t need religion anymore. Check out Rav Kahane’s HY”D speech where he details how they would put sefardim in transit camps and not grant the fathers work permits unless they showed an ishur from Misrad haChinuch that they had enrolled their children in chiloni schools – i.e. give your kids a non-Torah education or watch them starve.
The early tzionim did full-fledged shmad b’kavanah – all just so that the sefardim would give more votes to their degenerate socialist parties instead of following the gedolim as they were naturally inclined to do. You can argue that things were tough in Muslim countries and indeed they were – but that does in no way shape or form make the spiritual holocaust of Sefardi Jewry by their fellow Jews forgivable!
Sam2:
First, it is the MO and “RZ” that have exchanged portions of the Torah for, liHavdil, Zionism. They are the ones who are violating ikrei emunah, not myself and certainly not those I’ve quoted.
Regardless, I am surprised that you posted this. Accusing me of CH”V changing the Torah based on that post does not at all make sense. When’s the last time you brought a korban to the Bais HaMikdash? Why not? Are you changing the Torah?
Surely you are more than familiar with “Oneis – Rachmana Patrei”? The Torah certainly has NOT changed. CH”V. But this is galus and the three oaths apply in galus until Mashiach’s arrival BB”A.
In any event, I suppose that, as usual, the Zionists feel they know better than the likes of the Satmar Rav, (quoted by Rav Ovadia Yosef, as I mentioned) and the other Torah giants.
The Zionists have no answers.
Assurnet, FYI already in Morocco their was massive secularization due to the influence of French culture (according to Rav Aviner this is why their rabbis banned marriages with converts – well-to-do Jews were pressuring them to “convert” French women with whom they fell in love). In fact, religious immigrants were sent to religious settlements as per the agreement between the Mizrahi and Mapai. I have known more than one personally. In any case, you are living in the past. Today, Israel is fast becoming more religious. If the religious parties could unite and present a comprehensive (as opposed to sectorial) program they would definitely form the government.
HaKatan, even if the Three Oaths once applied they no longer apply. I have proven this beyond the possibility of any contradiction many times here.
sam 4321
reb moshe was not the only one to write on the subject,
the ramban says chiyuv, the yaavetz says chiyuv, the chazon ish say chiyuv rsz aurbach says acc. to r’ chaim hakohen today it is a chiyuv.
my point was that hakatan quotes things out of context and omits things that don’t support his nk agenda.
HaKatan: Why is it an Ones not to live in E”Y? That’s not what you said before. What you said before was that it was the oaths. Oaths from a Navi have no right to change a Mitzvah. That, indeed, is a violation of Hatorah HaZos…
assurnet: you are propagating many untruths. You take as a given that what my have happened to some happened to all. I am not carrying the water for the early Zionists but you paint everyone with the same brush-a false brush. And to include the Satmarer rebbe zz’l as one who saved Sefardi Jewry is a joke! At least we know that the Lubavticher rebbe zz’l reached out to sefardim since the beginning and you can see the fruit of that in France and Israel today, where Lubavitchers are mainly sefardim. How many Sefardim are Satmarer chassidim??
But, above all, as I said forever, history is not static, it is dynamic. What may have happened in 1948 does not exist today. What may have been a valid “shittah” a hundred years ago is irrelevant today.
You should see the Igros inside which discusses the Ramban. My point was that there is broad shoulders (Rav Moshe) to rely on for ppl who live outside of EY today and shouldn’t be deemed sinners.
Avi K – “In fact, religious immigrants were sent to religious settlements as per the agreement between the Mizrahi and Mapai.”
That is an extremely false sweeping statement. Perhaps in some cases this is what happened but across the board it was simply not the case. Chassidim constantly had to try and convince the zionist authorities to release religious europeans who had been forced into secular camps and they would not allow them to transfer to religious ones (in some cases they had to sneak them out). I read an speech by Rav Mahpoud just a year or two ago about how his mother and he were placed in secular camp and how the officials there would insult and mock him on a daily basis for being frum and knock his kippah off his head. What – was he just making these stories up?
Why were Jews going off in Morocco? Because zionists organizations where sending shluchim there to drive people off the derech! Before you claim it’s not true please see here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/229972/eida-gavaad-chilul-shabbos-to-prevent-induction-into-the-idf.html
“I have known more than one personally.” And I spoke to a rav this past Rosh Hashana who told me he spoke to somebody who came to E”Y after the war and when the boat was approaching the shore they instructed everyone on board to start tossing their tefillin into the water.
“Today, Israel is fast becoming more religious.” Thank G-d!!! That’s mainly because of A) the dis-proportionally higher birthright among religious Jews than secular ones and B) that more and more mainstream Israelis are becoming disillusioned with the zionist dream and are realizing that the state can not protect them physically (putting world opinion ahead of fighting terrorist to save Jewish lives) or even financially (think tent protests etc) nor is it even interested in doing so and that the only one that we can truly rely on is Hashem.
Assurnet,
1. So how did they stay religious? BTW, prejudice against less established Jews did not start in that period and unfortunately did not end. Sepharadim in America looked down on German Jews who in turn looked down on Russian Jews. To this day Ashkenazi Chareidi institutions have a numerus clausus for Sepharadim and bnei Eidot HaMizrach.
2. Not true. The French authorities instituted a program to secularize both Moslems and Jews. Being that they also repealed the dhimmi laws they were very successful with Jews (and to this day Jews in Morocco speak French as their first language) but less so with Moslems. On the subject of Sepharadim and Eidot HaMizrach in general, the rav of Tunisia, Rav Mosh Calfon HaCohen was a staunch supporter of the Zionist movement and the aliya from there was run by Rabbi Moshe Farjoun. Rav Kapach, who was the rav of the Yemenite community in EY, was also a staunch Zionist and, in fact, learned in Rav Kook’s yeshiva.
3. Israelis are not becoming religious because of disillusionment with Zionism but because they understand that it goes together with Judaism.
ROB: you are misinformed. The Satmar Rebbe literally saved hundreds if not thousands of Sephardic Jews from assimilation in Argentina by appointing a Satmar Rav there who strengthened Yiddishkeit and fought against assimilation and many of them are now Satmar Chasidim living in NY. (Definitely at least in the hundreds and growing.)
Additionally Satmar was very active in saving Neshomas in EY although I don’t recall the details. I don’t think they made them Satmar but that was never the goal. The goal was to maintain their Yiddishkeit.
mammele:Argentina had a Jewish population of hundreds of thousands Jews until very recently. Very few were satmerer chassidim. Whoever was appointed to be the Satmerer rov was for the Hungarian jews who came to Argentina after the war. Very commendable, but let us not gild the lily-it was not to save the sefardim. You say “hassidim,in the hundreds”, well, the Lubavitcher have Sefardi chassidim who are in the tens of thousands.
Look, The satmerer rebbe had his shittah and ,for many jews, he has been very successful. Just look around you. However, his shittah on Israel is far from any reality .
ROB – “Health: Just one simple question; do you advocate the dismantling of the medinah?”
Why do you post to me – when you don’t read my posts?
That’s one of the options, not the only one!
Sam 2 – “You are very right. I apologize profusely. Life was so much better for Jews under Nazi Germany than under Zionist rule, wasn’t it?”
Now you’re getting sarcastic! Chutzpah Yaski! This is what happens when you believe in Zionism – there are No answers!
Avi K:
You have not “proven” and such thing and the Satmar Rav, addresses this particular pathetic argument against the oaths in his sefer. Others do, as well, though of course it’s absurd to even suggest that the oaths don’t apply any more.
It is good that, at least, you admit to the possibility of them being in force.
The oaths are unequivocally in force, and the Zionists have no answers.
Sam2:
Are discussing the Torah here or something else?
What does “oaths from a navi” even mean?
The Zionist claim that the oaths are not binding is, of course, a non-starter since even the Zionists struggle mightily to dispense with them in other ways.
What part of “oneiss – Rachmana patreih” was not clear?
Again, why haven’t you brought korbanos? The Torah clearly requires one to do so.
This is absurd.
ROB: you obviously have no clue about what Satmar did and continues to do in Argentia or EY for SEPHARDIC Jews so there’s no point in arguing with you. Gild the lily? Did you do any research before making this assertion? Why would they continue to spend millions there and maintain mosdos there if the immigrants from Hungary are long gone? (Btw the first hit I got for Satmar Argentina was for the Satmar mikvah from MikvahMinder. They obviously don’t have websites but their continued presence is undeniable).
And I gave conservative numbers because I err on the side of caution. Why the comparison to Lubavitch is necessary or relevant is beyond me.
From page 3 -“Letโs start with GAZA โ itโs the Zionists fault what happened there! They were just like any other Arab living in Israel. But the Zionist government changed that!”
I’ve been proven right again! Look at the current events.
HaKatan, the SR was a daat yachid and admitted it. The oaths are definitively no longer in force and may never have been. My only admission is that at one time they MIGHT have been. You are simply in denial.
If God gave us the Torah to be kept in the Land of Israel and that we were scattered around the world after the destruction of the 2nd Beis HaMikdash being a heavenly punishment. How can we consider such a life being a real Jewish life? It is a kosher-style life but not genuine Kosher.
When we all start to really yearn and cry out to Hashem
for the coming of Mashiach and the rebuilding of the bais Hamikdosh then Hashem will gather all of us up together from the 4 corners of the world and bring us all to Eretz Yisroel.May it happen very soon. The choice is in our hands and now during the 3 weeks would be the best time before we ever experience another tisha b’av. May mashiach be here already
There is a an argument between ther Rambam and the Ramban in Sefer Hamitzvos if currently Yishuv Ererz Yisroel is a mitzva.
Look at Sefer Hamitzvos Mitzva 4 from the Ramban and the Megilas Esther there based on Kesuvas 110,2 ืื ืืขืืื ืืืื ืืืจืฅ ืืฉืจืื ืขืืืจ ืืขืฉื whoever goes from Babel to Eretz Yisroel is transgressing an Aseh.
Avi k
I held back for a long time because I don’t really believe you will answer seriously
Is a avigdor liberman your idea of a Jewish state?
Is municipal ืืืืื ืฉืืช across the country your idea of ืืืืื?
Are gay parades your idea of a nation ืืชืืงืื ื ?Are you so blind as to not see the spiritual decimation taking place in front of your face and you sit there and do nothing to stop it??
Why should a yid run to see all the ืืืจืื being perpetrated ืจ”ื to ืืจืฆืื ื ืืงืืืฉ
, ืืื ืืื??!!??It’s not a simple thing to move to ื”ื and watch public trampling of ืชืืจืชืื ื ืืงืืืฉื.
Bumper stickers proudly declaring ืืืืื ืฉืืช
Mayors of cities openly declaring war on ืืงื”ืAre you not aware of all that is going on???
It’s a total ืืืจืื
That is the Zionist utopia.
That is enough reason.May we all be ืืืื to move to ื”ื ืืชืืงืื ื. ืืงืจืื.
I am not coming ื”ื to say bad about ืืจืฆืื ื ืืงืืืฉ.
But unfortunately the land is under the control of ืจืฉืขืื ืืืืจืื that it’s a ืืฆืื to publicize and insult.
And I’m not even getting into the tremendous amount of people who fall into a grey area, or the question of the army that we are all aware is just a loaded topic.
There is enough that is impossible to justify one need not even deal with the grey.When you will explain how all this takes place in ื”ื ืืืืืืชื then I’ll be more than happy to discuss the ื ืฉืืืขืืช
I live in the U.S. and I believe there are legitimate reasons for living here. Let me suggest however kluger yid, that a way to improve the spiritual decline, is for more frum people to move to EY.
Some do. Those who learn in EY have a more serious shailah, but parnassah is an acceptable reason for going back to Chul.
How do you define an income?
Klugeryid
Although I donโt condone every stupidity or aveirah that someone living in Eretz Yisroel is oiver, I still consider it a Jewish state. Yes even Avigdor Lieberman is a part of that.When HKBโH chose Klal Yisroel he knew that there are smart, dumb, righteous and unrighteous people yet he still chose as a nation. If you have questions ask him why he chose us as a nation rather then just say that anyone who is a tzadik is a Jew. ืขื ืื ืืฆืจืชื ืื ืชืืืชื ืืกืคืจื is going on the whole nation.
Look at the 3rd Perek of Aim Habonim Samecha (Rav Yisochor Teichtal Hy”d) see the index, and the Vayoel Moshe (the Satmar Rav , Rav Yoel ztz’l) who discuss the thee shavuos in great detail and the argument above (if there is one) between the Rambam and Ramban.
manitou, the above needs an explanatiion as the Chinuch on bentchihg, does Hashem need our praise? He created us for hakoras hatov which is necessary for our survival.
Given that Israel is now a “first world” country, there are no economic excuses. One might need to stay in golus to take care of one’s parents, and if you are hard core anti-zionists (enough that the Israelis would arrest you for opposing the state, e.g. refusing army service) that would qualify. Any who is pro-zionist but lives in golus in the 21st century is a hypocrite.
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