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Avi K – DY, it is also a mitzva to go into the IDF. This is a milchemet mitzva (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:1)!
I assume this quote from that halacha is what you are referring to:
??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?????
Seeing as how the Rambam paskins it’s a milchemet mitzvah to aid Israel in any enemy that attacks it, and seeing as how the IDF kicked several thousand Jews out of their homes about a decade ago, puts Jews in administrative detention for following Torah over the medina, and just last week the defense minister stood up emphatically in concurrence with a supreme court decision to destroy a shul outside Yerushalayim calling those who oppose it “encouraging Jewish terrorists” it seems like we very well have a chiyuv to wage milchemet mitzvah against the IDF!!!
Jazar -“oh come on you know thats not true otherwise all of the rabbanim in israel would encourage people to leave.”
Did you ever ask a Godol? Did you ever speak to one in your whole life?
“Israelis have a higher life expectancy than Americans so on average you would actually live longer in Israel than America.”
Like we said before, those include mostly Goyim. Stop with Zionist propaganda!
Avi K -“Health, on the contrary, in Shmutz l’Aretz Jews commit “avoda zara in purity” (Avoda Zara 8a).”
Avi again you mixed me up with Hakatan. Do you have Dyslexia?!?
What do you think the Brisker Rov held? The Chazon Ish? Rav Shach? R’ Shlomo Zalman? The Steipler? R’ Elyashiv? Do you think they held everyone should leave?
Assurnet -“I’m not a big buki on the sugiya but I remember hearing a deah that goes something along the lines of this”
You’re only a Buki in Zionism!
“- that the chiyuv of kivush ha’aretz still applies to today and since kivush involves making war which is inherently dangerous and often life threatening therefore with this mitzvah there is no inyan of v’nishmartem meod.”
So you’re admitting I’m right! I said you can’t keep V’nishmartem Meod in Israel.
Barry -“Heath: We were discussing the differences of Yeshiva Ketana’s and there is a major difference.”
Like I said before – “You didn’t go to the right Yeshivas”.
T.A. doesn’t cut it!
I said you can’t keep V’nishmartem Meod in Israel.
Again: What do you think the Brisker Rov held? The Chazon Ish? Rav Shach? R’ Shlomo Zalman? The Steipler? R’ Elyashiv? Do you think they held everyone should leave?
assurnet: your comments are absurd. If you follow the news , you will know that a compromise has been reached on the Pizgat Se’ev shul. The Gaza withdrawal was a disaster, yet it has accomplished what Sharon wanted: it shows the whole world and , very specifically, the Israeli electorate that it is suicidal to give back any land. Hence, the status quo will be continue and -Thank G-d- no withdrawal will be considered seriously. I don’t know what you mean by the administrative detention of jews.
A compromise has been reached (I doubt a halachically acceptable one), but why was this even contemplated?
Are you really saying that you’re okay with the Gaza evacuation??!!
We do have a good reason. And that reason is that Mashiach is not here yet. When Mashiach comes and is confirmed as Mashiach I will go to Eretz Yisrael.
but the ramban holds its a mitzvah deoraitta and since it is possible to currently move to israel why would mashiach coming or not have anything to do with fulfilling this mitzvah?
And I would like to find a source that any Rabbi in the last fifty years has said that we should not move to Israel because it is too dangerous. I have never heard that said by anyone so please prove it.
Assurnet, chas v’shalom!a. If you recall Gafni supported the government that expelled the Jews from Gush Katif. So maybe it is a mitzva to give him his pension. In any case, the alternative was a civil war, which would have been much worse. Such a war is definitely not a milchemet mitzva. This is proven from the fact that talmidei chachamim were exempted from puttting down Avshalom’s rebellion. Regarding the rest, it is the police not the IDF who enforce those decisions – and IMHO those Jews who were put in administrative detention (regardless of how one feels about it in principle) were, in fact, doing the opposite of following Tora.
Health, you, HaKatan and Joseph are one group in my mind.
Hudi, who says that one must wait until Mashiach comes (BTW, there are two – and according to Rav Kook Mashiach ben Yosef, whose job is kibbutz galuyot and building the material side of EY, has already come) to do a mitzva?
DY – “What do you think the Brisker Rov held? The Chazon Ish? Rav Shach? R’ Shlomo Zalman? The Steipler? R’ Elyashiv? Do you think they held everyone should leave?”
Ya-know I wasn’t talking to you! But I’ll answer you anyways. When you ask a question to a Godol it’s a specific one. Right now – Terrorism is rampant there, so those Gedolim are in Olam H’emes. You should know that!
Sam2:
There is a very big difference between the two items.
What I quoted from Rabbi YB Soloveitchik about the Zionists increasing the Arab hatred of Jews is plainly observable and also corroborated by others.
OTOH, what you quoted is, essentially, merely what he hoped for and felt.
As well, of course, none of the gedolim in his time agreed with him on that.
Avi K:
You’re asking about Paris and ISIS but ignoring the Arab terror ignited by the Zionists in E”Y for a century.
Again: the geodlim held already from a century ago through modern times that Zionism is idolatry and heresy. Even a leading Zionist Rabbi, Rabbi Hershel Schachter, said there are good reasons to NOT move to E”Y.
DY:
We discussed all this already.
We discussed all this already.
I (and others) asked, and you dodged, but didn’t answer. That’s not a discussion, since you merely evaded, as you continue to do.
HaKatan has no answers.
Joseph
There is a chiyuv of yishuv eretz Yisroel no matter what and no matter who controls it
I know it is useless to comment on the deranged comments of HaKatan, Joseph and Health and some others but one last time: you all live in a time warp. Whatever happened a hundred years ago with the Arabs has no relationship to today. Today, if, chas vecholilo, the Arabs take over Israel, every jew, men,women and children would be either slaughtered or kept as slaves. All you have to do is look at the daily news. It is worse than a pipe dream to suggest living with the Arabs now, it is a crime. Ad all of the comments of gedolim of a hundred years ago is totally irrelevant. So, go sell your deranged dreams to the Neturei Karta.
Ok, Health, have R’ Aron Leib Shteinman, R’ Nissim Karelitz, R’ Moshe Shternbuch, etc. told everyone to leave?
ROB I support and agree with your statement
Hakatan You are already a Shavye anafshei chaticha di’issura(kesubos daf tes amud alef)and are not allowed to quote from (your words not mine) “Ovdei Avoda Zara” to promote your heartfelt but unfortunately misguided opinions
ROB – “you all live in a time warp. Whatever happened a hundred years ago with the Arabs has no relationship to today”
You’re right, it was much better then!
Here’s a Not joke: The Zionists have made living in EY – better & better – NOT!
40 years ago, even under Zionist rule, s/o could walk through the Arab Shuk and nothing happened. Nowadays, they even attack soldiers!
health: you show your irrationality every time you comment. Whether it was better ten years ago or hundred years ago is irrelevant. Today- Hajom_ it would be mass suicide to allow the Arabs to control eretz yisroel.
HaKatan and Health,
1. Forty years ago (after the great Zionist victory) a Jew could walk alone and unarmed in any Arab area because the Arabs, like almost everyone else in the world (and this is the fundamental problem the West has in dealing with ISIS) they thought that everyone thinks like them. They knew what they would do if the shoe was on the other foot c”v and they assumed that we would do the same so they feared Jews. If you want us to make them correct you are essentially saying that we should stop being Am Yisrael.
2. ISIS has nothing to do with Israel or Zionism. This is an anti-Semitic lie. They have stated time and again that they are still fighting the Crusades.
3. Many gedolim (e.g. the Netziv, Rav Kook, Rav Meir Simcha, Rav Soloveichik) supported Zionism. Rav Schachter was referring to individuals who have individual heterim. There are also good reasons to eat on Yom Kippur and drive on Shabbat but the default position of the Halacha is that both are prohibited.
Health – “You’re only a Buki in Zionism!”
I thought you said anyone who goes to the army, votes or takes money from the government is a zionist – how do you know I do any of those 3? I personally don’t allow even toy israeli flags into my home. Interesting side note – while he said not to vote in national elections, apparently Reb Yoilish said to vote in municipal elections so I guess that makes Satmar zionist??
“So you’re admitting I’m right! I said you can’t keep V’nishmartem Meod in Israel.”
You totally missed point – v’nishmartem is negated in light of kivush h’aretz therefore in that circumstance there is no mitzvah of v’nishmartem.
Avi K – I was being facetious in response to your use of the Rambam to assert it’s a mitzvah to be in the IDF. And no comment on Gafni’s paycheck – I wouldn’t vote for him if he donated his paycheck to me.
rabbiofberlin – I actually have been following the news however I’m unaware of this compromise of which you speak. Unless by compromise you are referring to the government offering to put up some moldy caravan “until a replacement shul can be built” which will never happen because there is apparently no physical space to actually build a new shul in that area (as per an affiliate of the shul in a radio interview). And as far as no further withdrawals being seriously considered didn’t this website report just a few days ago that Bibi is mulling a unilateral withdrawal from Yo”Sh?
ROL: It says Lavan was worse then Hamman. The zionist were and still are trying to fulfill the pasuk (NOT Mitzva) -???????? ????? ????.
Those Anti-religious of the past have created a generation of anti-religious of the present. In fact most who go OTD are very anti-religious and always try to take others down with them.
Health; There is internet in E”Y too. You can be mekayem ‘Ushmartem….’ there as well.
yytz- Listen. I know first hand it’s a major culture shock. Coming to Israel as an adult with your family is different. You rely on your husband, and aren’t creating who you want to be. For a teen it’s much harder. Everything was different-the fashion, language, culture, food. Girls have a different mentality, talk differently….
Assurnet,
1. The caravan is temporary until a new shul can be built on government-owned land nearby (the land is now used as a playground). It is projected to take three months as the shul will not be destroyed by disassembled and reassembled.
2. All kinds of spins are floated in the Israeli press. Netanyahu woud have to be insane to unilaterally withdraw as the security situation will be completely untenable. Moreover, there is no way to expel and relocate several hundred thousand Jews either logistically or financially. Not to mention the fact that the Gush Katif expulsion, which involved 7,000, created a national trauma.
Health, the Gra says that the use of ??? regarding the curse that Yaakov feared if Yitzchak had discovered his ruse reflects three types of problems Am Yisrael from which Am Yisrael suffers:
???, who wanted to destroy the body,
???, who wanted to destroy the soul
????, who was sold by his brothers – and this is the hardest of all. These are those who join the ranks of our enemies, slander and attempt to delegitimize our state.
555, read Faaranak Margolese’s book “Off the Derech” and see who is to blame for OTDs who become anti-religious.
Avi K – “The caravan is temporary until a new shul can be built on government-owned land nearby”
Why is it being allowed to be destroyed in the first place?
“All kinds of spins are floated in the Israeli press.”
Naftali Bennet bought into the spin enough to speak out against it. He is a member of the cabinet – not just some stam guy reading the paper.
“Netanyahu woud have to be insane to unilaterally withdraw as the security situation will be completely untenable”
Many said the same about Sharon before Gush Katif… and were proven quite right. Their common sense didn’t stop arik. When tziyonim want to hurt Jews they don’t let things like security of Jewish lives or justice get in their way.
“These are those who join the ranks of our enemies, slander and attempt to delegitimize our state.”
Our state? Speak for yourself – I carry a blue TZ for lack of an alternative, not out of any patriotism for any state – I’m a citizen of Klal Yisrael thank you very much. And in light of evicting Jews from their homes thousands at a time, advertising itself as the toieva capital of the middle east, etc – the medina does a fine job of de-legitimizing itself without anyone else’s help.
ROB -“Whether it was better ten years ago or hundred years ago is irrelevant. Today- Hajom_ it would be mass suicide to allow the Arabs to control eretz yisroel.”
Says who? You?!? Prove it. Stop with your Zionist lies!
Avi K -“Forty years ago (after the great Zionist victory) a Jew could walk alone and unarmed in any Arab area because the Arabs, like almost everyone else in the world (and this is the fundamental problem the West has in dealing with ISIS) they thought that everyone thinks like them. They knew what they would do if the shoe was on the other foot c”v and they assumed that we would do the same so they feared Jews”
Stop with your Zionist lies! Please read the Torah and learn about Koach V’ozem Yudi.
My mother said the reason a person could walk in the Shuk forty years ago was because there was soldiers on every rooftop.
But my grandmother walked in the Shuk with no protection during the Ottoman empire control of EY!
What’s the difference if the caravan is temporary or not. How does destroying a shul show love for Hashem’s holy land? How does that prove they are trying to be mekayem ‘Kivush..’ The first thing to capture is the Yetzer Hara who is saying “Destroy a shul Jews are davening in”.
Do these Chilonim want to show they’re equal to the goy or worse than them?
Health: Your comments prove my point that you are delusional.
assurnet: You conveniently omit to say that the chareidim were enthusiastically supporting Sharon- as long as they got their benefits. It was the Dati leumi crowd who fought tooth and nail during the expulsion. So, please get your facts straight before accusing the “tsyionim”. Furthermore, even today, the chareidim would allow Judea and Samaria to be turned over to our enemies. Turn your anger at the chareidim, not the “tsyonim”.
Whether you consider yourself a “citizen” of israel or not, is irrelevant. You receive all kind of benefits from the medinah, including your daily safety, and for that, you should be “makir tov”.
Health, I know a (Chareidi) rav who said that he was told by an elderly woman that the Turks kept order by grabbing an Arab every Fri and hanging him next to Shaar Shechem as a warning. Do you really want us to do that?
555, the root of the problem is that when Jordan controlled Yehuda v’Shomron Hussein rewarded people he wanted to reward by giving them land. However, it was conditioned on them working it. Being that if they fell into disfavor he would take it away they did not bother but when the situation became frozen with the Six-Day War they remained the owners on paper – but the previous owners were also owners on paper. Being that the PA has decreed the death penalty on Arabs who sell real estate to Jews purchases must be made through intermediaries and straw companies – and usually the seller is someone who is emigrating. Thus it sometimes happens that when land is purchased another Arab pops up and claims that he is the true owner. The court then has to decide who is right. Sometimes they decide for the Jews, sometimes not – and the Arab who is declared the owner will obviously not sell even though for security reasons he will never be able to set foot on the property. In that case the cabinet ministers are, as we say here, caught between the hammer and the anvil. On the one hand, they cannot thumb their noses at the court because abandoning the rule of law will have disastrous effects both domestically and in foreign affairs. on the other hand, they do not want violent confrontations with yahoos. In this case, the best way out was achieved. The shul will not be destroyed, just moved. The new property is indisputably government-owned so their is no legal problem.
555- There is a saying in yiddish” : a na-ar vast me nisht kan halbe arbet”.Hope you understand that.
Anyway- I did some quick research about the shul in Givat Ze-ev. If you have any anger, direct it towards the Supreme Court. Its decision-after seven years of litigation- that the ownership of the land upon which the shul is built does not belong to the shul, Hence, it ordered it to be destroyed. After major protests, the compromise was that the whole shul-every brick and every seat- will be dismantled and rebuilt as is on an adjacent parcel that is certainly owned by the shul
Maybe there was a way of keeping the shul as is but the Supreme Court decided that it was built on another person’s land. I am not sure what the halocho would be in such a situation but I find the ultimate compromise acceptable. So have many all ministers- amongst them chareidim.
ROL; What were the safety issues before WWI? (NOT WWII)
The Zionists started before 1929 massacre. Even though they went to the League of Nations asking for Uganda. Just proves they were first Natinalists. They didn’t succeed in getting what they wanted so they decided to wage war for something else – A ‘State of Israel’.
Had they received Uganda they would have called that country “The Jewish State”.
555_Please ,at least get your facts right. Nowadays, there is a plethora of material available on the web ,so you can comment intelligently before writing. The so-called Uganda proposal was a temporary solution to the pogroms in Russia. It was debated and defeated-repeat- defeated- in the early twentieth century- well before the League of Nations even existed. So, your assertion of “nationalism” versus “zionism” is totally false. They were called Zionists because they wanted to return to Zion!
As far as your question of safety before WW1- what is its relevance to today?
Health: I don’t understand your logic. If you jump off a bridge and survive, does that mean that it’s always perfectly safe to jump off bridges?
Avi K – “Health, I know a (Chareidi) rav who said that he was told by an elderly woman that the Turks kept order by grabbing an Arab every Fri and hanging him next to Shaar Shechem as a warning. Do you really want us to do that?”
IDK if it’s true, but even if it is – what’s wrong? The Israeli government won’t even hang Arab terrorists! Why do you support this government – because they give you money?!?
ROB – “Health: Your comments prove my point that you are delusional.”
I’m delusional? You’re the one that keeps posting -“it would be mass suicide to allow the Arabs to control eretz yisroel”.
That’s right – keep on with the Scare tactics. I guess this is how you get so many people to believe in Zionism. You & the other Zionists – don’t want them to think for themselves!
Health-Have you ever heard of a country called Syria? How about Iraq? Libya maybe? how about, the territory of Gaza? All very peaceful, all of them very hospitable to faiths other than Moslem….aren’t they? And I heard that parts of Syria and Iraq were ruled by an entity that insists on conversion or slavery? A figment of my imagination, maybe? And you think that I am propagandist…..
ROB – “Health-Have you ever heard of a country called Syria? How about Iraq? Libya maybe? how about, the territory of Gaza? All very peaceful, all of them very hospitable to faiths other than Moslem….aren’t they? And I heard that parts of Syria and Iraq were ruled by an entity that insists on conversion or slavery? A figment of my imagination, maybe?”
Let’s start with GAZA – it’s the Zionists fault what happened there! They were just like any other Arab living in Israel. But the Zionist government changed that!
Stop with your Zionist propaganda & lies!
Did you ever hear of Yemen and Iran? These have very strict Muslim rules, but the Jews there aren’t all enslaved or killed!
It’s not your figment of imagination, but your belief in the Zionist entity.
Health: I have come to the conclusion that you are a Zionist secret plant. Your arguments are so phantasmagoric that it can only be the secret weapon of the Zionists to show how ridiculous the chareidi arguments are. If the best you can do is to quote Yemen and Iran, you are truly bankrupt intellectually. There are about ten jews left in yemen, all the rest having fled . And just about every jew still living in iran wants to leave. yup- great examples!
why does anyone need an excuse to live in chutz la’aretz????
hakatan,
answer the following question, Is it a mitzvah to live in EY today or not? what does Hashem want?
you seem to claim that you know what all the rabbonim hold, so you should have no problem answering this simple straightforward question.
ROB -“There are about ten jews left in yemen, all the rest having fled.”
A good portion of them would have been better off staying there because the Zionists made them into Freye Jews! This is of course if you believe in Olam Habah.
“And just about every jew still living in iran wants to leave. yup- great examples!”
I know they want to come to Israel, so the Iranian Jews will become just like Yeminite Jews. And you say I’m delusional?!?
Health, I do not know what are Hashem’s considerations when deciding who gets Olam HaBa. What about someone who thinks that it is better for Jews to besubject forced conversion to Islam as opposed to the chance that they will be be observant in EY (as are many Yemenites) and if not them their children or grandchildren? Does someone who echoes are worst enemies have a portion? What about someone who is motzi shem ra on an entire tzibbor in Am Yisrael?
Health: I mean, Jews were enslaved or killed in Yemen relatively often. You really need to learn your history.
I have been living in Eretz Yisrael for over twenty years, love it, love the way bli ayin hara the education my children have received which in Yiddishkeit is far more than I received. I love the fact that there is less emphasis on gashmiyus (though to my chagrin that is slowly changing even among the religious).
HOWEVER, I would never criticize those who do not come. Many people believe it or not are more SPIRITUALLY fulfilled in chutz la’aretz. Eretz Yisrael, and yes I have heard this from people who live in yishuvim as well, for whatever reason lacks that communal structure that many of us non New-Yorkers grew up with and sorely miss. Having less interaction with neighbors also means having less opportunity to give to others and to the tzibbur.
A young couple living near us had an opportunity to go to America to be marbitz Torah, my wife and I were extremely encouraging, though many others were not. What an opportunity. This is something they would not have over here and if from a ruchniyus perspective they could grow then this is what they should do. I have a friend who packed his bags ready to make aliyah when one day he said to his wife – we are growing here, we have Rabbanim, shiurim, we are a part of something. They decided not to come.
My brother told me he volunteers for the chevra kadisha sometimes and my sister is very active in bikkur cholim, these are things where there is less opportunity here and many people find great spiritual fulfillment in these things and they should be encouraged.
There are a whole host of reasons not to come, but I believe everything else can be overcome. The attitude here is difficult to handle, I think every Israeli is on guard that the other person might take advantage of him and therefore argues over what we see as nonsense. Just listen to all the road rage, the horn blowing behind you if you don’t react right away to a green light, this all comes from this attitude. The elections I also think have become holy of holies which to me is nonsense as well.
All these things are not insurmountable and if one is comfortable with who he is he can handle it. However, many people need to be involved in their communities and to give to others and there is no question that the opportunity in chutz la’aretz is far great.
rwndk1 + 1
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