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Assurnet -“I think you are mixing up loving and living in E”Y with zionism l’havdil. Just because someone chooses to live in Israel instead of moving to Chu”l does by no means classify them as a zionist. The Eida haCharedis operates out of Yerushalayim and is probably the biggest private kashrus hashgacha in the country… are you suggesting they are zionist?”
Anybody who votes or takes the Medina $ or goes to the IDF is a Zionist!
How do you guys know what “most” people do and why? I think it’s wrong to equate gashmius with having enough money to live on, including things like tuition. I know some Americans who manage well because they get paid for jobs that are basically American. But salaries and job opportunities in Israel don’t seem to match here. I do recall one acquaintance who had a tough time with parnassa here so he figured what’s the difference where it’s difficult. But sadly, he struggled even more there. When Moshiach comes, IYH, we will all go.
@flatbusher – “When Moshiach comes, IYH we will all go.” Amein to that. That’s my plan. 🙂
Anybody who votes or takes the Medina $ or goes to the IDF is a Zionist!
last I checked Rav Shteinman and Rav kanivesky voted. Do you know halacha better than they do?
Flatbusher, it depends on how well and where one wants to live. The same is tru in America but tuition costs are breaking people no matter where they live. I have a friend who has a son who is a lawyer and a rav who has a talmid who is a CPA, both in the US. Both are just barely making it.
Health, Rav Eidelstein of Ponevich said that anyone who is eligible to vote and does not do so has no portion in Olam HaBa.
in Israel the “religous” speaker of the knesset Edelstein wants to outlaw an org. that that is bringing people back to their mesora since it is “racist”. Until a Jewish non-Zionist govt is in charge there will be this liability on the people living there for allowing such reshus to take place. Avi k. parnossa is from the ONE ABOVE, I know plenty of poeple on section , food stamps, medicaid that dont have the tuition issues of your lawyer/ CPA/rabbi friend as it comes from above.
ZD -“last I checked Rav Shteinman and Rav kanivesky voted. Do you know halacha better than they do?”
Who said I was Paskining? I was defining Zionism!
Avi K – “Health, Rav Eidelstein of Ponevich said that anyone who is eligible to vote and does not do so has no portion in Olam HaBa.”
I’m not arguing with him. He’s arguing with Gedolim; like the Brisker Rov!
I’m not arguing with him. He’s arguing with Gedolim; like the Brisker Rov!
The Brisker Rov is not the final Posek on the issue especially when Rav Shteinman and Rav Kanivesky hold differently
The Chazon Ish held to vote and take money from the government, and it had nothing to do with liking the medinah.
ZD: why all of a sudden can there be only one Posek/Psak instead of Eilu veilu? If my Rabbi and other great Rabbis don’t allow mixed gender elementary classes will you cede to my Rabbi’s ruling?
ZD – “The Brisker Rov is not the final Posek on the issue especially when Rav Shteinman and Rav Kanivesky hold differently”
For me – the Brisker Rov & the Satmar Rebbe are the final Poskim on the issue!
Sure, because you personally like that extreme shittah, but not for any objective reason.
Health, you are incorrect chronologically and halachically. However, you are correct in the sense that after their opinion has been completely rejected there is nothing more to say on the issue. In Chazal’s words, aino mishna.
Whoever said going OTD in israel is better than is the US is wrong
1. Your kid has a 50 percent more chance of going OTD in Israel! If you didnt move theres a good chance they wouldn’t even DREAM or WANT to go OTD. Even if you have the frummest kid with a great family and friends….who really loves Hashem-you still got a good chance she/he will go OTD if thrown into a new country during his/her teens years.
2. Marrying a Jew….-right. Uh, do you want to know the percentage of the frum kids lost to arab marriages that made aliyah versus not? It is considerably higher….
Kids feeling alone and looking for someone-not knowing how the country works can easily by manipulated by an arab pretending to be a Jew. If they go there they are almost seriously lost forever. Not just spiritually….
The Brisker and Satmat shitta isn’t extreme. In fact, the Brisker and Satmar shitta only differ from the Agudah Rabbonim’s shitta on a very small number of issues regarding Zionism. Namely whether to vote and accept government funding. All of the aforementioned shittas, including Agudah, are opposed to Zionism even if they participate in the government.
I am not saying it is wrong because it is extreme, just that some people are attracted to extreme shittos for no objective reason. The Satmar Rav and Brisker Rav zt”l came to their conclusions based on pure daas Torah, not through negius. The issues of voting and government funding are not small or inconsequential, although certainly the Chazon Ish, who held of both, was against the medinah.
Shopping is correct, making aliyah with children is very dangerous.
Avi K -“Health, you are incorrect chronologically and halachically.”
Says who? You!?!
“However, you are correct in the sense that after their opinion has been completely rejected there is nothing more to say on the issue”
Who rejected it? You!?!
DY: why wouldn’t you grant the benefit of the doubt to Health that he believes the Satmar/Brisk shittah is the truth? And if someone is raised Satmar would you also contend he believes this way because he prefers extremes?
As it happens the derech shelo derech of being against Zionism yet benefiting and voting is something that even the ardent Zionists here see through and correctly label Zionism. And money definitely blinds hence you see how this “shittah” is slowly evolving into true Zionism. It’s a slippery slope. Do you for example honestly believe Litzman should have taken the Health Minister position?
I don’t have a problem with a Satmarer holding of R’ Yoel’s shittah or a Brisker of the Rov’s shittah. I do have a problem with someone who went to regular yeshivos dismissing the Chazon Ish’s shittah, which is pretty much accepted as normative. I don’t think anyone, in fact, should dismiss as as a derech shelo derech.
I have no opinion on Litzman’s job.
Its funny when people start saying how the Satmar Rov/Brisker Rov is the Halacha and we should follow it, but when we bring up equal gedolim all of a sudden Ellu V Ellu is mentioned
DY -“I am not saying it is wrong because it is extreme, just that some people are attracted to extreme shittos for no objective reason”
So according to you – you can’t be objective – if you hold like them? So anyone who you disagree with must only be Noigah B’dovor. No one can argue with you, because they’ll always be wrong!
There is no way in the world that frum Jews going OTD and marrying Arabs in Israel is more common than American frum Jews going OTD and marrying atheists/Xians.
The chance that a Jewish Israeli marries an Arab is probably less than one in a thousand. Every time it happens there are protests!
The chance that an American frum Jew goes OTD and marries a non-Jew is far, far higher, certainly more than 1/100 and possibly as much as 1/10 or higher, depending on the community.
American culture is so anti-Torah right now, that all it takes is kids surfing on the internet and getting involved in social media and seeing what non-frum young people think these days–which is pure hedonism and knee-jerk opposition to anything religious–that they easily get swept up in the current. I personally know of kids that basically went OTD after being convinced that toeiva “marriage” is right and anyone against it is a hater.
Israeli hard-core leftists at Ha’aretz and such are bad, but Israel is different because everyone knows society is becoming more religious and more “right-wing,” and there’s no stopping it for demographic reasons.
I see no reason to think frum Jews going off the derech is more common in Israel (and I’ve seen no evidence indicating that). Certainly there is the transition to worry about, but at least in Israel it’s easier to be an observant Jew — kosher restaurants everywhere, more or less free public religious schools, it’s normal everywhere to wear a kippah in public and dress tznius, etc. And davening and learning is more meaningful to kids who actually speak and understand the language.
Its impossible to say Tefillah 3 times a day and study Torah and not see that our spiritual potential can only be fulfilled in Israel. Anyone not living in Israel needs to do major reflection and major tshuva. I don’t care how frum you are in NYC, its nothing compared to living in Israel and striving to do all 613 mitzvot.
DY -“Sure, because you personally like that extreme shittah, but not for any objective reason”
“I don’t have a problem with a Satmarer holding of R’ Yoel’s shittah or a Brisker of the Rov’s shittah”
“I do have a problem with someone who went to regular yeshivos dismissing the Chazon Ish’s shittah, which is pretty much accepted as normative”
How do you know what Yeshivas I went to?!?
alcibiades -“Its impossible to say Tefillah 3 times a day and study Torah and not see that our spiritual potential can only be fulfilled in Israel. Anyone not living in Israel needs to do major reflection and major tshuva. I don’t care how frum you are in NYC, its nothing compared to living in Israel and striving to do all 613 mitzvot.”
I keep the Mitzvah of V’nishmartem Meod Ess etc. which you can’t do in Israel! Have you read the News recently? How about Today’s News?!?
The murder rate is much higher in the US than in Israel (even counting terror attacks), and addressing a much more common cause of death, the traffic fatality rate per capita is 3.5 times higher in the US! Life expectancy is also higher in Israel. So it would seem that the mitzvah of “guarding yourselves very well” can be performed in Israel, even better than in the US.
yytz, your stats are including the inner city minority violence and drug death rate that has little effect on white America let alone Jewish America. A Jew has a greater chance of being a murder victim in Israel than he has virtually anywhere else in the world significant number of Jews reside.
The US is much larger than Israel, while the murder rate of Camden , NJ might be higher than Israel. The murder rate of Borough Park is quite low
Let’s be very clear:
What is mistakenly known as the Brisker/Satmar shita regarding Zionism in general is, as Joseph indicated, the ONLY Torah shita on Zionism.
The Chazon Ish is, of course, included in this; he worked alongside the Brisker Rav on various matters, including meeting (and “putting in his place” )the first Zionist premiere at the latter’s insistence.
It is true that there are minor differences on matters such as voting in Zionist elections. This is, of course, eilu viEilu.
But the idolatry and heresy of Zionism is not at all a matter of “eilu viEilu”; it is (plainly) indisputable and indeed undisputed by all Torah authorities with a legitimate mesorah untainted by the “isms” of the times.
yytz- that’s wonderful for kids growing UP here-but transitioning is really hard. Unless you know people personally you can’t even understand it! I know a family who made aliyah- one of their teens tried to commit suiced twice and had to be sent back to a mental hospital in the US to recover for a year or 2. Another of of their kids got PTSD and all her hair fell out. I know a few girls that got lost to arab marriages too. Of course eretz yisroel is amazing and all and that should motivate people to become frummer-
If you lose everything in your life that you love- your friends, school, extended family, city, malls, all at once it IS very traumatic!
One must have crazy emunah to hold on and hope this is all for the best instead of lashing out at the world. I don’t even want to get started about some situations I almost got into but did not only because I trusted in Hashem. But it is so much easier to give up, lash out, and etc when you are ripped apart from all that is dear to you at such a pivotal stage in your life.
Do you know hwo many kids run away and then fall trap to arabs and no one will know since everyone thinks they have just run away for a while and are at friends. You think it’s publicly announced every time someone falls prey? Is it announced every time one marries a goy? Or has cancer?
Teens that are confused, alone, hate themselves, their family, the world, Hashem, and just want someone who cares can easily fall prey to arabs. Unfortunately I know of many. And such people may be lost phsyically not only spiritually. I don’t even know if some of these people are still ALIVE.
If you lose your kid to a goy-it hurts. But losing your kid to an abusive manipulative guy assuring you will never see your child again-that is way worse.
In any case, let’s stop about the arab/goys. So many kids who make aliyah try to commit suicide, go on drugs, and much worse….
ASK A RAV. ASK YOUR KIDS!!!!
I see what you’re saying, and I believe you that there are such cases as you describe. I’m sorry to hear about all this, and I hope all the people involved are OK. You may be right that aliyah with teens is not a good idea, or must be done very carefully.
But I’m not necessarily convinced that on average such horrible outcomes are more likely among frum teens that make aliyah versus though who stay. Unfortunately some here also attempt suicide, join cults, use drugs, run away, etc… In your experience there may be more horror stories in Israel but that doesn’t mean it’s a general trend or more likely on average.
But the idolatry and heresy of Zionism is not at all a matter of “eilu viEilu”
And as repeatedly demonstrated, is not taken literally or halacha l’maaseh.
HaKatan has no answers.
The real question is why are people waiting until their kids are teenagers to make aliyah. Why do we not encourage newlywed couples to move so we do not have this issue.
According to the Ramban and the Rambam-(at least according to most acharonim) there is a mitzvat deoraitta to live in Israel. Most people will not go down in ruchniyut if they live in Israel if they move to the right neighborhoods so back to the original question why are more religious Jews not moving to Israel???
Jazar -“so back to the original question why are more religious Jews not moving to Israel?”
Like I posted before – to keep the Mitzvah of V’nishmartem Meod Ess etc. – which you can’t do in Israel!
oh come on you know thats not true otherwise all of the rabbanim in israel would encourage people to leave. Israelis have a higher life expectancy than Americans so on average you would actually live longer in Israel than America.
Health, on the contrary, in Shmutz l’Aretz Jews commit “avoda zara in purity” (Avoda Zara 8a). They refrain from work on Dec. 25 and Jan. 1, look forward to Sun, etc. There is even a discussion regarding celebrating a recent night whose observances originate in paganism. Moreover, as I have previously posted, the crime rate in America is much higher – and the recent attacks in Paris have shown that no place in the world is a haven from terror. Heath care is on a lower level (the WHO has ranked Israel’s health care system as number 28 in the world whereas the US system is number 37). In short, the mitzva is better kept in Israel from all perspectives.
Shmutz l’Aretz
Nice.
DaasYochid:
Demonstrated by whom? How?
I guess you have your own pshat in The Brisker Rav, Rav Elchonon, Rav Aharon Kotler and many others.
Avi K:
As the head of your idol, the Zionist Premier, stated after 9/11, Israel was used to experiencing 9/11 all the time.
The idolatry and heresy with which the Zionists try to fool everyone is understandable (shaani minus diMashchei). But the burying your heads in the Middle-Eastern sands to contradict plain and simple objective facts is mind-boggling.
Excluding the heretical Zionist prayer for the Zionist State during, liHavDil, laining, Jews the world over have been saying Tehillim for our brethren in E”Y, and have been doing so FOR DECADES, because…our brethren in E”Y are in the safest place in the world?
A father and son were just murdered by savages in Eretz Yisrael on Friday. The one-year anniversary of the Har Nof massacre has just passed, where Jews were murdered in shul! This is all besides for the rest of the oceans of Jewish blood that have been spilled in Eretz Yisrael since the Zionists began their invasion of E”Y around a century ago.
Zionists (of all stripes) themselves, including the likes of Rabbi YB Soloveitchik, admitted that Zionism has caused intense Arab hatred of Jews and the horrific results thereof. Are you denying what your own master has taught? And denying reality, too? Amazing.
HaKatan: It is a gross misrepresentation to quote R’ Soloveitchik as implying that the Medinah made things less safe for Jews. As he famously said, one of the reasons that the Medinah was a sign of impending Geulah is that now the whole world knows that “Dam Yehudi Lo Hefker”.
Health – I’m not a big buki on the sugiya but I remember hearing a deah that goes something along the lines of this – that the chiyuv of kivush ha’aretz still applies to today and since kivush involves making war which is inherently dangerous and often life threatening therefore with this mitzvah there is no inyan of v’nishmartem meod. I don’t remember the exact sources of the top of my head but let me know if you would like and I can try to find them to see it on the inside.
HaKatan, do you eat from a hechsher which uses mashgichim who like the State of Israel? Do you drink such wine? If someone is a frum Zionist, do we trust his eidus? Are we allowed to daven in a shul with an Israeli flag, or one which recites the aforementioned tefillah l’medinah? Yeah, I know, a question for my LOR… the Brisker Rav said… R’ Elchonon said…
HaKatan has no answers.
now the whole world knows that “Dam Yehudi Lo Hefker”.
Sam, do you really believe this to be the case?
why do you guys keep getting off topic this post has nothing to do with zionism. zionism cannot take away the fact that According to the Ramban and the Rambam there is a mitzvat deoraitta to live in Israel. So why do we not encourage more people to move to Israel when they are young before they have kid issues. Why has this mitzvah fallen to the wayside in the yeshivish and chassidish communities.
It probably has a lot to do with the army.
Barry – “Growing up in the States and going to Yeshiva, to see the level of learning the children have in Israel boggles the mind. There is no comparison. My only regret is that I didn’t raise my children in Eretz Yisroel, though most live here now.”
You see – you didn’t go to the right Yeshivas!
Heath: We were discussing the differences of Yeshiva Ketana’s and there is a major difference. The knowledge of Frum children in Israel far exceeds their counterparts in chutz La”Aretz.
The bottom line in general is, if your foundation is stronger, so is the quality of learning at every level.
DY, the American government is run by mostly all Ovdei Avoda Zora practitioners of Trinity worship, and many European countries are officially and formally Christian. So why wouldn’t all your same questions to HaKatan about utilizing Israeli government services and participating in their system apply to Jews doing the same in Christian countries?
HaKatan,
1. Did you hear the news from Paris and the announcement about the capitals that are next in line?
2. Zionism has not increased the hatred of anyone towards us. It has just given another excuse (clannish, trying to take over their countries, not bwanting to be involved in theircountries, communism, capitalism, etc., etc.).
DY, it is also a mitzva to go into the IDF. This is a milchemet mitzva (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:1)!
DY: Do I believe the Rav said it? Of course.
In a hypothetical world where I have a right to argue… I don’t know. I have no idea what the world’s attitude towards Jewish deaths was before 1939. But if I had to guess, I’d say they care less than they do now.
Sam, more pointedly: Does the world not see Dam Yehudi as Hefker? It’s not a matter of arguing, it’s a matter of recognizing the metzius.
Avi, obviously, you know that we don’t think that’s the case.
Joseph, that doesn’t address anything I’ve written.
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