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This is an offshoot of my other thread.
Everyone loves to talk about the importance of achdus. However, do we actually care about achdus? These days, there are so many arguments going on. Frum vs. Secular, Charedi vs. Modern Orthodox, Ashkenazim vs. Sephardim…
So when people say that we should care about achdus, do they only mean that we should try to get along with people who are exactly like us? Because that’s what it seems like…
Achdus means everyone should try to get along with me, on my terms.
Short answer: Yes.
I think people who say it mean it, even if they aren’t perfect at practicing it.
Reality: Getting there requires work. It requires one to be honest with him or herself and taking the time to consider other points of view. Or tzimtzum to make space for our brothers and sisters.
Imho, secular vs frum may be different than charedi vs modern.
Someone who is frum may feel obligated to judge the *actions* of a secular Jew and possibly say or do something. That in itself may trigger a defensive response, us vs them. The response would be a byproduct of the goodwilled intention. Achdus doesn’t come without struggle, does it?
Hence, frum vs secular biases and actions could be out of concern and desire for achdus even when it appears contrary.
Maybe achdus is a process? Especially so in the galus.
Are charedi vs modern distinctions also about fulfilling out obligations to each other and wanting everyone to be close to Hashem too?
Or maybe are they about how to best apply that in society?
*To observe halacha.
*To make a kiddush Hashem
*To prevent a chilly Hashem
*To survive in Olam Hazeh and/or
*To thrive in Olam Haba
Achdus requires a bit of Ellu v Ellu
Two Jews = three opinions, so even if we were all Torah Jews, there would be many instances of eilu v’eilu divrei Elokim Chaim. If there were only one authoritative Torah leader which the entire klal Yisrael would accept, then any issue may just be resolved with him. The problem is that every sector has its own leader and is unwilling to accept eilu v’eilu.
Honest answer: NO
The sinas chinam today is R”L worse then the days of the second bais Hamikdosh that was destroyed because of it, so how can we expect Mashiach to come if we can’t have achdus & come together as one loving nation? (on all levels from frum to reform to chasidish etc….)
may we all finally become one loving nation again & do teshuva together so mashiach can come already
to add:
EVERY PERSON in the world is convinced that their way of life is the correct way & everyone else is wrong (yes the reform think their judaism is correct & we think our frum way is correct just to give you an example etc…) & this happens in gashmius things too (my route to get there is quickest/safest & everyone elses way is not the safest etc…)
Achieving achdus with other Jews in the community is much easier when you live OOT and are outnumbered by the goyim in great multiples.
Those of us business owners and professionals frequent one shul, but typically belong to all and donate to all the Jewish institutions in the community…Chabad or Schecter Day schools, all shuls, the JCC, Federation, Hadassah, B’Nai Brith, Hebrew Free Loan/Burial, Jewish Family Service, etc.
Presenting a united front is very important in galus.
MA, what about those of us who try to live a frum life where we say “this is the correct way FOR ME”? I don’t expect Daas Yochid to live his life like me, and I don’t think he is wrong for living it the way he does.
I try to look at others and accept that what they are doing is correct FOR THEM”
Where it gets complicated is where some take the obligation to have a good hashpo’oh on others to say YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG!” as opposed to “YOU MAY WANT TO CONSIDER DOING THINGS THIS WAY”
And where it gets even harder to find the right approach is where another Jew is doing something he or she feels is the Torah way which infringes on the choices of another Jew to find their own derech.
That’s what I find the hardest. It is where I often enough fail to demonstrate the tolerance I seek by condemning what I see as their intolerance. What I see. To them it may not be intolerance, or to them the intolerance is justified by Torah. I am challenged to reconcile that with my outlook, and I think we all could benefit from being don l’kaf zchus more often.
There are situations where in order to be accepting of other people you would have to compromise on your own values. Not saying there’s no way around it, it’s just very difficult. It’s not as simple as just “getting along”.
Yichusdik, I’m curious to know how you think I live.
Also, on another thread (I don’t recall where) you complimented me, and I didn’t have time to respond, so I’ll take this opportunity to say thank you.
There is evil in the world, I’m so shocked!
Meno: “There are situations where in order to be accepting of other people you would have to compromise on your own values. Not saying there’s no way around it, it’s just very difficult. It’s not as simple as just “getting along”.”
I think it’s also important to remember that sometimes one really does have to choose between compromising his values and getting along with others and there may not be a way around it, and in some cases, the right thing to do according to the Torah is to NOT compromise even when it seems to entail less achdus.
Of course, there are times when one is supposed to be more “maikel” and “compromise his values” for the sake of getting along with achdus, but there are times when that is not the right thing to do, and it may be the Yetzer hara telling us that the most important thing is achdus.
Hopefully, most of the time, we can find ways to do both, but sometimes it’s not possible and then we have to make sure we find out the right thing to do in that particular situation.
A lot of the posts in this thread seem to about the supposed contradiction between having values and opinions vs. accepting others. I think the key is to distinguish between people and their actions/hashkafos. You can love someone and disagree with them and think that what they are doing or thinking is wrong. You can even tell them that you think that what they are doing is wrong and it doesn’t have to mean that you love them any less just because you think they made a mistake.
After all, do you love your children any less when you scold them? Do you love yourself any less when you do vidui and acknowledge your mistakes?
MA: I don’t think that there is one right way for everyone to live.
It is too late to edit my last post.
I actually do have an ideal vision of the world in my head. It’s where animals and people and plants and everyone are happy and free and no one is in pain.
Ideally the right way is full of sunshine and rainbows and happy loving energy.
How to translate that into practicality depends.
Lightbrite, if Hashem does not have a body how can He feel chilly?
Meno: “There are situations where in order to be accepting of other people you would have to compromise on your own values. Not saying there’s no way around it, it’s just very difficult. It’s not as simple as just “getting along”.”
Its quite rare when this happens, Most of the time you think this is the case, it really can be worked around
ZD- I think that tzadikim are often able to do that, and there are many stories like that told about tzadikim. However, in my experience, I have found that as a non-tzadeikis, I have at times been faced when situations like that – situations that a tzaddik would have been able to accomplish that, but a non-tzadik would not be able to and would have to choose between the two.
Additionally, we do find that even with tzadikim (maybe davka with tzadikim) they often do have to do things that cause others to hate them and speak badly about them, and their gadlus lies in their being able to stand up for the truth even when others hate them because of it.
However, that is usually because they are leaders (and have to deal with community issues). And I do agree that for most people, it is probably true that things can be worked out most of the time with some thought and a lot of sincerity.
Distance between us and Hashem makes us feel chilly. Less warmth. It is backwards. You’re right that it does not make literal sense. It’s an abstraction.
Actually, LB, I thought that you meant Chillul Hashem. Check your previous post.
LU: You are right. I did mean Chillul Hashem. Autocorrect changed it. I only noticed after it was already too late to Edit.
I thought maybe dafka there was still some truth in autocorrect’s assumption.
Well, I know it once autocorrected a mod’s post from tznius to genius, so maybe you are right 🙂
LU +10
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