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Syag specifically mentioned the boards….
that was one component to respond to the insult that it was a low barrier field.
…which seem to only be a formality (at least for OT)
a formality? wow. i guess letting you know you are not only uninformed but insulting a whole group of people isn’t enough to deter you from continuing that way.
“well i find that really odd.Somewhat hard to believe actually. maybe the problem was more about your ability to chose classes carefully.”
These were basic courses I had to take to complete my requirements. I also said “along with many other things I will never need to know in life”.
The content was practically useless/not-as-important-as-learning-Torah at best and heretical/dangerous at worse.
“As one of my Rabbaim (who went to College for a semester or two) used to say, Clown U. :)”
Well said. Well said.
this is what you said and i was responding to it:
most courses have nothing to do with Atheism or communism.”
Ummm…. thats LITERALLY what we learned about when I was in college.
And i just don’t see that happening unless you took religious philosophy 101.
if you want to argue that it was useless, that is a separate point.
Syag, No. I wrote two sentences. You only quoted one of them. I said:
“Ummm…. thats LITERALLY what we learned about when I was in college. Along with lots of other material I would never need to know in life.”
“And i just don’t see that happening unless you took religious philosophy 101.”
Yea??
Try Social Science 101 and Phil 101. Apikorsus is rampant in the humanities.
We have access today for free in the comfort of your own living room to more secular knowledge than past generations ever had in their largest university libraries.
newbee- the words “along with” separate the beginning of the response (the part that responds to the above quote) from the second point that is an add on.
I said philosophy 101 and you refuted that with philosophy 101. um…okay. Personally I refrained from philosophy and sciology classes to avoid apikorsus. not sure what you were expecting or why you still think that speaks for the rest of the curriculum.
look, i agree that it is best to avoid college, but at least be straight and honest in your reasons so that people can hear you.
I have a degree in the Humanies (Along with a degree in the sciences..I have 2 degree)
and not all humanities are like Philosphy. I have a BA in History and there isnt much Apikorses there. I am not saying you should major in it, I just major in it because I like it and its my favorite discipline. But its not apikorsas. My real major was computers
I took many humanities courses like economics, English (Still stink at writing), and there wasnt much apikorsas or even discussion of relgion
Knowledge builds on itself, you need to know basics before you know advanced stuff
you need to know Arithmatic before you know Algebra before you know Calculus before you know Differential equations
Syag specifically mentioned the boards….
that was one component to respond to the insult that it was a low barrier field.
…which seem to only be a formality (at least for OT)
a formality? wow. i guess letting you know you are not only uninformed but insulting a whole group of people isn’t enough to deter you from continuing that way.
An exam with a 90+% pass rate is a formality, any way you put it.
I apologize if that bothers you, and await statistics regarding how it is “murderous” to get into a program or other barriers to entry. I’d love to be wrong, just show me why.
Why is it an insult to be in a low-barrier field?
An exam with a 90+% pass rate is a formality, any way you put it
An exam can be muderously difficult yet have a high pass rate. It depends on the barrier to get to the point of taking the exam.
Why is it an insult to be in a low-barrier field?
I think if someone works very hard for something and the attitude is, “no big deal, anybody could do that”, that could be insulting.
Syag Lchochma, no big deal misunderstanding. The points go together though.
“I said philosophy 101 and you refuted that with philosophy 101.”
You said religious phil 101, my point was they teach these things in courses that dont have religion in the title.
Yea Im glad we can agree on the basics.
“Why is it an insult to be in a low-barrier field?”
Its insulting if the person has low self esteem and needs their career to make them feel positive about themselves.
The less exclusive something is, the less it artificially increase ones self-esteem.
GAW
“An exam with a 90+% pass rate is a formality, any way you put it.”
So this applies to the internal medicine and family medicine boards as well? Those are also formalities? Because initial pass rates for first time testers are consistently about 90%.
I don’t know the pass rates for other disciplines, I only looked at the first two that showed up in a quick search. I don’t have reason to believe the results are much different.
Dont worry, Im sure most of the people in those low barrier careers have enough self esteem in their own lives without relying on the exclusivity or lack thereof of their careers to feel good about themselves.
An exam with a 90+% pass rate is a formality, any way you put it
An exam can be muderously difficult yet have a high pass rate. It depends on the barrier to get to the point of taking the exam.
Which would mean that the barrier is the key for success, not the exam. The exam would be the formality showing you passed the other barrier.
Take Smicha for example. If a Yeshiva only allowed people to take the exam after they’ve shown bekiuys in Basar V’Chalav Taaruvos, and have gotten a 90 or higher on all individual exams, and can be spot-tested on Shachs, then that is the hard part. The actual “exam” (where you get formally tested) may not be significantly difficult, but may still be important for formalities.
Also, as you pointed out, more than 99% of the population can’t make a leining. Does that make a Gemorah test “murderously difficult”?
Why is it an insult to be in a low-barrier field?
I think if someone works very hard for something and the attitude is, “no big deal, anybody could do that”, that could be insulting.
As with everything else, if you work hard and are at the top of your field, you will do well. Take law, for example. Plenty of people (seemingly nowdays) can go to a school and pass the bar, but not everyone can go to a top school or become successful in the field. That takes hard work.
(equal opportunity insulter).
Some tests are meant to weed out people and some tests are meant to encourage everyone to succeed.
When people fail a test many times (not always) they give up. if more people would fail the Dirshu tests, then people would not do it. Failure can be very frustrating, the Acturary , CPA or bar exam is meant to weed out people
if it actually was a low barrier field it wouldn’t have been called insulting.
GAW
“An exam with a 90+% pass rate is a formality, any way you put it.”
So this applies to the internal medicine and family medicine boards as well? Those are also formalities? Because initial pass rates for first time testers are consistently about 90%.
I don’t know the pass rates for other disciplines, I only looked at the first two that showed up in a quick search. I don’t have reason to believe the results are much different.
After all of the years and years of schooling, practical work, and self-selection (only those who are really interested take the exams (I don’t think they are needed to be a “doctor”))? Sure, that falls into the “Smichah” example.
I used to work as an actuary, so I can give some input to the question asked earlier.
The questions asked on the actuarial exams are the highest level of difficulty. They spend days coming up with each question, trying to make it as difficult as possible. Not only that, they do research on the most common mistakes made while solving the questions, and offer them up as answers in the multiple choice questions.
I went into those exams thinking I knew the material really, really well, and walked out knowing I failed miserably.
GAW,
The pass rate for the USMLE, which is required for all doctors practicing in the US is above 95%.
Your rule that a high pass rate is indicative of a low barrier field is hogwash. The facts completely disprove your “thesis”
The pass rate for Barbers and Cosmetologists is below 50%. That is not a high barrier field.
The pass rate for HHA’s, as low a barrier field as there is, is even lower than that in places.
GAW,
The pass rate for the USMLE, which is required for all doctors practicing in the US is above 95%.
Your rule that a high pass rate is indicative of a low barrier field is hogwash. The facts completely disprove your “thesis”
The pass rate for Barbers and Cosmetologists is below 50%. That is not a high barrier field.
The pass rate for HHA’s, as low a barrier field as there is, is even lower than that in places.
Ta’anu Chitim V’Hodah lo B’Seorim.
GAW,
No.
Just proved that your theses, all of them. are utter bunk.
The reason why there are higher pass rates is because there is a high barrier to the field. And that barrier long precedes the point of examination.
Perhaps find a whole ‘nother list of qualifiers to your theses. Because all that does is, and which in fact did happen, render the theses foolish and meaningless.
Which you have just very ably proven.
Nisht:
Being that I never had such an idea that test scores are the only measure of barriers to entry (you made up a straw man), I agree as well 🙂
An OT has 4 years graduate school plus internships and externships. There are significant early barriers.
I think that in addition to that, it is not possible to practice without passing the exams, similar to doctors.
You can work as an accountant with passing the CPA exams and many do so successfully. You can work as an actuary (see DaMoshe) without passing the exams.
You are focusing on the wrong data in determining why certain fields have higher pass rates than others.
“You can work as an actuary (see DaMoshe) without passing the exams.”
I do not think this is true.
An OT has 4 years graduate school plus internships and externships. There are significant early barriers.
I think that in addition to that, it is not possible to practice without passing the exams, similar to doctors.
You can work as an accountant with passing the CPA exams and many do so successfully. You can work as an actuary (see DaMoshe) without passing the exams.
You are focusing on the wrong data in determining why certain fields have higher pass rates than others.
Excellent. Let’s get to Tachlis.
I’m not discussing “pass rates” (as you, DY, and others point out) as the only barrier. There certainly are many barriers for OT (such as a college education, a Masters, etc.) that most people can not obtain. Nonetheless, the field is more saturated and less difficult than a Doctor (even if both have a 90% pass rate on the boards). The “boards” and “pass rates” response was directed at Syag who brought them up.
One can work as whatever they want to, they are not a CPA unless they passed the accounting exams and have the needed education. If they call themselves a CPA (or actuary possibly, I don’t know) without the qualifications they can be sued.
If you with to bring up the Masters as the barrier to entry, we can have that discussion (and how much of a barrier is it as compared to other barriers, such as CPA exams, the LSATs, or the need for starting capital for a small business).
and “pass rates” response was directed at Syag who brought them up.
no i didn’t, that was yours. I wouldnt have considered it relevant enough to bring up.
You made a statement that OT and PT have low entry barriers. You partially supported that because there are high pass rates.
That is wrong. And the fact that there is a high pass rate may well have to do with the high entry barrier, resulting in greater capabilities of the candidates and the resultant commitments to succeeding.
Further, the investment in all the schooling is lost without successfully passing the boards, because nothing can be done with the degree without passing the boards.
A person can successfully use an accounting degree even without passing the CPA exams. So the schooling is not a waste and the stress to pass may not be as great.
The degree from college is a degree in accounting, not a degree in Public Accounting. On can be an accountant, and even work in a public accounting firm with having a CPA. A person cannot work as an OT with out having the license.
What accounts for the oversupply of OT, and other similar therapists, in the NYC and Lakewood area, that not all can find positions? (As I understand it.)
I think the desirability of those jobs by frum women because of the ability to have flexible hours has something to do with it.
On this topic, has anyone else noticed a tendency in the NY area for agencies that supply these therapies to very very strongly push children to get these services – even when the child doesn’t necessarily need it?
Syag – If you can’t be honest enough to quote a full sentence then we don’t have much to say to each other. I’m sorry that you are so upset, and will try to make this my last post on the topic so not to upset you further.
Nisht – I agree with you the the entry barriers for anything that requires college are relatively high, as compared to most jobs that Americans have. Compared to the jobs of many Torahdik breadwinners (even a Rebbe who needs to teach Gemorah), the barriers are lower. Unfortunately, we have learned the some positions (specifically Law), which used to be a lock, do have comparatively lower barriers (just three years, LSATs and Bar after a BTL).
The investment in schooling is an interesting point, but once again, that would make the investment the barrier to entry, not the exam. That pits the years spent (depending on use of a program or online courses) vs. the effort needed to complete, and gives incentive for those who don’t believe they will pass to drop out (knowing they need to pass an exam).
Finally, I’m not in any way supporting the level of entry barrier with the pass rate. If that were the case, there would be way fewer people driving than OT, as the pass rate for the driving test is lower!! What I am saying is that exams can create strong entry barriers where none otherwise exist, which is my understanding of the actuarial exams (as DaMoshe shows). As you, me and DY point out, one can have a difficult exam with high pass rate, because the students have been winnowed out so that the passers are the only ones (in general) who will take the exams.
DY – And the comparative ease of schooling. Otherwise, there would be more Pharmacists and Dentists, both which can make their own hours relatively easily. It is a balance between the payments made (schooling) vs reward (potential salary).
Ad Kan.
Oh don’t be ridiculous. You credited me with two points and I was specifying the one point that wasn’t mine and the reason why. It was an incorrect statement that I corrected because honesty is actually something I cherish. Not sure how you could have taken it as anything else.
Here, let me fix it :
Gavra – I think you accidentally misquoted me. In the following sentence: The “boards” and “pass rates” response was directed at Syag who brought them up – I did indeed bring up the point about the boards but I did not, in fact, bring up the point about the “pass rates” because I would not have considered it relevant. Just clarifying for the sake of retaining the integrity of the points brought forward.
Was that better 🙂
CTLAWYER: “writersoul
I come from a long line of business and or professional people who went to Yeshiva plus college and graduate schools.
My family arrived in the USA between 1868 and 1872. I’m 5th generation American born and my parents and grandparents all had college degrees. My children do as well.
This didn’t stop us from being frum. BUT, we mostly don’t live in overpopulated frum areas with limited opportunities to earn a good living. You want to stay in that self imposed ghetto? Then opportunities are more limited. BTW>>>when you get away from those areas the Gentile community is much more understanding and accommodating to Shabbos/Yuntif needs and schedules. Note: I said Gentile, not goiysche…treat them with respect and you get respect back. This is not like the antisemites left behind in Europe.”
I literally have no idea what I said to get this comment at me. I can’t boast a pedigree like that (due to life circumstances, only one of my grandparents had a college degree [Master’s in Education]) but I am a college student, and one who believes in the value of higher education. I’m really confused.
WritersouTo be honest, I don’t remember. But it could have been about certain jobs being overpopulated. I was stressing the difference in competition in not living in the ghettos by choice such as Boro Park, Lakewood, and Monsey.
Opportunities and the way the Gentile community reacts to frum Jews is different when you are not considered a threat do to growing numbers
Is a college degree a guarantee of economic success? The answer is no. I know CPAs who have made partner and can’t find work? That being said, most employers require a college degree but if you work as a consultant and prove your worth they are more than happy to employee you.
Nothing in life is guranteed, however if you have a college degree you have a better chance of economic success with it.
I can tell you if you do not go to college you have a 0% chance of being a doctor.
“I can tell you if you do not go to college you have a 0% chance of being a doctor.”
And in today’s world with Obama Care and the current reimbursement structure, being a Doctor does not guarantee any great income, while it does almost always guarantee huge school debt.
The doctors who are doing well are those who run a business, even if it is the medical industry.
“I can tell you if you do not go to college you have a 0% chance of being a doctor.”
And if you dont go to college you have a 0% chance of becoming a lawyer.
And if you do go to college to become a lawyer without having extremely wealthy and generous parents you have a 100% chance of using up 7 years of your life learning about non-Torah related subjects and graduating with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and a good chance you wont get a good job or wont like your job.
4 out of 5 new business fail in the US and you really need a minimum of $100,000-$200,000 to start one
Even a simple small storefront in NYC will cost you $5000 a month minimum. That is before any other single expense. Very few new stores can generate that kind of income
zahavasdad, this is what I said:
“Get a mentor, a financial adviser, perhaps look into buying an already existing and established business from someone looking to retire. Have a little bitachon. That 150k+ will be better spent that way opposed to learning how great atheism and communism is while going for a BA in some college.”
And you took away from that I advocate starting a new business in NYC, the highest rent area in the entire country, with 80k? ??? Your example is pretty much the opposite of what I said.
This is silly. If we’re generalizing, it’s really very simple.
A college degree (al pi teva) is an advantage for a career, but not a guarantee.
Going to college can be a spiritual pitfall, but a downfall is also not certain.
For a man, factor in bitul Torah.
So, it’s a balance between the possible advantages and the possible disadvantages.
V’su lo midi.
DaasYochid, Im not sure why you think fleshing out the details and examples of the pros and cons of a huge life decision is silly.
“And if you do go to college to become a lawyer without having extremely wealthy and generous parents you have a 100% chance of using up 7 years of your life learning about non-Torah related subjects and graduating with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and a good chance you wont get a good job or wont like your job.”
unfortunately your comments are getting more outlandish and less reality based.
You are not going to get a pre-existing good business for $150,000
Any business is only worth its accounts and how much net profit it makes. a business that nets about $30,000 a year is maybe worth $150,000 which is not alot of money to make and live on. At 5 times P/E for $100,000 income you would need to spend $500,000 for a business.
that is alot of money to obtain, too much for most people
Syag Lchochma, care to state how?
Poverty has historically been the #1 reason people went OTD. Untold numbers converted to christianity because economic opportunities were limited being jewish (Most famously the families of Nostradamous and Benjamin Disraeli)
People then left the Shtels of eastern Europe for the US against the rabbanim because of economics.
Keeping people poor is not a gurnatee of success they will remain frum either
“You are not going to get a pre-existing good business for $150,000. Any business is only worth its accounts and how much net profit it makes. a business that nets about $30,000 a year is maybe worth $150,000 which is not alot of money to make and live on. At 5 times P/E for $100,000 income you would need to spend $500,000 for a business.”
This is COMPLETELY false. For a non-passive business its usually 2-3 times net. Not 5. A business that nets 30k you can usually buy for 60-90k.
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