- This topic has 97 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 7 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
n0m, calling a legitimate killing in self-defense “murder”, even with the caveat that it’s not in the legal sense, is still a filthy lie. It is not murder in ANY sense. It’s the exact opposite of murder.
That Floyd swallowed a large dose of fentanyl immediately before he was arrested is not directly proven, but it is the most reasonable hypothesis that explains all of the evidence. The most likely reason he would have swallowed it just then would be that he was about to be arrested and didn’t want to be caught with it and charged with distribution.
Milhouse – Your comparison to Yesias Mezrayim – can’t compare to any killing.
Hashem wants the Goyim to keep the 7 Mitzvos.
But SADLY almost NOone in the US keeps them.
Only a few states even have the Death Penality.
And just yesterday the Federal Gov. just killed s/o, but it was the First time since 2003.Dear Milhouse,
Floyd did not have a large amount of drugs in his blood. What does it mean that he had 11 ng/mL of fentanyl? I have been around people on high doses of drugs. I did not see any such characteristics with him. What is your experience that makes you so sure? And, the Police should have seen it.Dear Chash,
What is the difference between a chokehold or a kneehold or some otherhold? If I punch someone with serious force and he passes out and is then pronounced dead, it is reasonable to assume I killed him.Dear La,
The riots were in your area, or you saw coverage of it?Daer Dovid,
Law enforcement alone, cannot quell a riot.Dear Milhouse,
Context context context. The discussion was not about if a murder was actually committed. (It was.) We were discussing if the cause of death deserves investigation. (Or so I thought.) For that discussion, murder cannot mean the ex post facto complete understanding of the event. because than we would have no need for an investigation. So the word ‘murder’ referring only to the legal term, would be misleading. (I have no idea why you require parsing hairs to demonstrate the terminology of the debate. It would be more enlightening if you could state your reasons and sources.) [Just to be clear, this appears to be as close to a brutal murder as it seems. Just because the officer can make a legal argument, it does not assume the nature of the event.]nOmesorah -“Just to be clear, this appears to be as close to a brutal murder as it seems. Just because the officer can make a legal argument, it does not assume the nature of the event”
I agree with Milhouse. You are calling it a brutal murder. Why? I could understand that opinion – if after the cop let go – the perp was dead. Do you even know when the Perp lost his pulse? Or you don’t want to know – because it doesn’t fit your AGENDA?!?
BTW, your use of fancy Vocabulary – doesn’t make you any More Knowledgeable!Health:
“Hashem wants the Goyim to keep the 7 Mitzvos.
But SADLY almost NOone in the US keeps them.”There are approximately 328.2 people in the US. Around 1.8 are Jewish. That leaves over 322 million non jews.
How in the world can you possibly know that most don’t keep them?Also, is it a requirement to have the death penalty to be mekayem 7 mitvos? Where does it say that?
“BTW, your use of fancy Vocabulary – doesn’t make you any More Knowledgeable!”
That’s a pretty mean thing to say.
Dear Health,
No. What agenda could I have?All those words were not part of my view. It was deemed critical that I explain why I used a term a certain way. [Though maybe it started as something else. Too much side tracking going on.] In order to get to the bottom of what my thought was for that exact word, I had to be a bit fancy. My last post did nothing to back up my argument. I was never asked to prove that part. Nor was I given a real counter argument.
Flowers -“How in the world can you possibly know that most don’t keep them?”
If you learnt the 7 Mitzvos, you’d know how I’d know that.
I’m not here to teach you Torah.The latest filing of the Hennepin County Medical Examiner shows that George Floyd had fatal levels of fentanyl levels and had Floyd been found dead at home, it would have been ruled an overdose death.
Furthermore, the autopsy revealed no physical evidence suggesting that Mr. Floyd died of asphyxiation.
Dear Two,
There has not been a new filing. This is the old one. And has been already discussed. The autopsy is nothing new either. This is a medical/legal opinion, that is coming to from the courts. Let the best lawyer win. [Liberal Americans call it justice.]
Let me ask, what is the difference if the police kill a healthy person with no rap sheet, than somebody on drugs with a history of drug offenses?
Is it okay for police to kill only unhealthy people? Are we now to believe that besides being an honorable judge, Derek Chauvin is also a master of medical diagnosis. Police are supposed to target low class individuals and cause them harm?
(Dear Two,
I am not referring to what you think. I am recalling some of the drivel that has been inferred on this topic. If you can please enlighten me, as to what the implications of your post meant to you.)
Your post is based on the implication that Floyd was killed by the cops.
Yet it might very much be that all the cop did was hold Floyd down to the floor without occluding his airway or any blood vessels and it was the large dose of opiate that Floyd (might have) consumed that caused the respiratory depression or apnea.
Whatever did or did not happen, its for sure the optics are not good and Floyd did not ‘deserve’ to die. Yet, the question really is if he was killed by the cops or by the opiates in his system. Would the outcome be any different if he would have been seated in the back seat without any force. Fentanyl is pretty fast acting, if he just consumed a rather large dose of fenatnyl, he might have arrested in the back seat of the police vehicle.
Unless one gets a kick out of looting and rioting, any rush to judgement is bad and might one day come back to bite someone else.
“I am not referring to what you think. I am recalling some of the drivel that has been inferred on this topic. If you can please enlighten me, as to what the implications of your post meant to you’
I dont think much, and my opinion doesnt matter much. It is the facts that are available and the due process that matters. If the facts turn out to prove one way or another that is all that we have.
Dear Two,
Your reasoning is sound, except that the cops hin Minneapolis have a bad record of unjustified killings. And this specific event does not have any benevolent intent. A large amount fentanynl is by itself inconclusive of anything.
Our eyes tell us nothing if we don’t want to see it. All the rest is commentary.
Chauvin doesn’t stand a chance.
Even though Milhouse is right, they will find him guilty to appease the Woke Mob!
When did this Country become Communist?By finding drugs in Floyd, Chauvin should have been more careful, so it makes things worse.
RE -“By finding drugs in Floyd, Chauvin should have been more careful, so it makes things worse.”
LOL.
He found an empty bag.
So he should be a Racist & decide that if you find a bag on a black guy – it must be drugs and the black guy swallowed them.
You Liberals are the most Hypocritical people – Ever.
Like I said – Chauvin doesn’t stand a chance for a Fair Trial!
I’m beginning to think, right now, the Good Ole US of A, is worse than many Commy Countries!I’ve been watching the trial.
Multiple Minneapolis police supervisors have testified that placing a detainee in the prone (face-down) position on the ground, with his arms handcuffed behind his back, makes it hard for him to breathe, and that the detainee should be moved onto his side, or into a seated or standing position, as soon as possible. There’s also been testimony that all Minneapolis police officers, including Chauvin, know that through their training.
And multiple police body cam videos show that the detainee was held in that prone, handcuffed position for nine minutes, even after he became unresponsive.
The defense hasn’t started its case yet, though.
Health, Fox Newx: Shauvin told bystanders, Floyd, a sizeable guy propably on something.
DovidBT -“And multiple police body cam videos show that the detainee was held in that prone, handcuffed position for nine minutes, even after he became unresponsive.”
That’s why you can’t Judge up without being there.
Ever hear of 2 witnesses?
There wasn’t a video of him refusing to comply & resisting.
But the cops there – said he was!
That’s why they put him in the prone position, because they couldn’t control him.If they would have shot him – there would be No Lib Nonsense from the Peanut Gallery!
RE -“Health, Fox Newx: Shauvin told bystanders, Floyd, a sizeable guy propably on something”
That was an assumption due to his resistance!
Perps like that – have to be restrained anyway possible!There wasn’t a video of him refusing to comply & resisting.
The police body cam videos showed him resisting and screaming like an ape from the moment they first approached him, when he was in the driver’s seat of his own vehicle.
Two or three officers spent several minutes trying to get him to sit in the back seat of their squad car. His lack of cooperation was why they eventually had to give up and put him on the ground.
The issue is not that they had to use force. That was obviously necessary. The issue is that (according to the prosecution) three officers kept him face down on the ground, in handcuffs, too long. (The fourth officer at the scene was focused on keeping an angry group of spectators away.) And after he lost consciousness, they made no attempt to resuscitate him. It wasn’t until the ambulance arrived that he was turned over and put on the stretcher.
In preparing for the trial of Chauvin, Minneapolis has fortified, with concrete barriers, fences and razor wire, the courthouse where it is held in. Understandably, for any acquittal of Chauvin, or conviction on a lesser charge than murder, could trigger a riot like those that plagued the city through the summer of 2020.
And if a mob does take to the streets in Minneapolis, as it did all last summer, the national reaction will be telling. How does one accurately describe a crowd that gathers outside a courthouse to demand, on the threat of a riot, a verdict of guilty?
And should a riot occur — and violent protests in Louisville, Seattle and Portland recently seem to point to another such long hot summer — may we expect our new national leaders (Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer) to denounce the mob and stand up unequivocally for the rule of law?
George Floyd was not choked to death. He was not asphyxiated. He was not killed by Chauvin’s knee on the side of his neck. An autopsy showed Floyd’s neck muscles were not even bruised.
Floyd died when his heart stopped. Yet, he was already suffering from an enlarged heart with constricted arteries, one of five of which was 90% blocked and two others were 75% blocked.
An autopsy found heavy concentrations of fentanyl in Floyd’s system and traces of methamphetamines. If Floyd had collapsed and died in the street while being wrested into the squad car, his death would have been attributed to a drug overdose and a bad heart.
Also, a videotape of the minutes prior to Floyd’s being put on the pavement, his neck under Chauvin’s knee, shows Floyd crying, repeatedly, “I can’t breathe,” while resisting the two rookie cops trying to put him in the patrol car.
Moreover, there is testimony from those with Floyd when he was stopped for passing an allegedly phony $20 bill, that he had passed out in the car before the cops arrived. And the arresting cops claim he was foaming at the mouth before being restrained.
In short, Chauvin’s defense attorneys will likely make a credible case, backed by evidence, that Floyd’s death was not caused by the knee on his neck but by the battered condition of his heart, the near-lethal dose of fentanyl in his system, and his anxiety and panic at being arrested and fearing, as he wailed, that he was going to be shot.
UJM – “George Floyd was not choked to death.”
The Libs in this Commy Country aren’t interested in the Truth.
That’s why they have No problem Stealing an election.
They also will probably find Chauvin guilty to appease the Woke Mob!In short, Chauvin’s defense attorneys will likely make a credible case, backed by evidence, that Floyd’s death was not caused by the knee on his neck but by the battered condition of his heart, …
That may be true, but the prosecution has argued that the police have a responsibility to do all they can to keep a person in their custody healthy, especially if he’s restrained, i.e. in handcuffs.
Of course, this whole mess wouldn’t have happened if the guy had simply cooperated with the police. And his resistance may have been due to the fact that half the politicians in the country have been aiding and abetting the BLM and “defund the police” lunatics, rather than encouraging people to respect law enforcement agencies.
I don’t think Chauvin will be found guilty of all the charges the Woke Mob want him to found guilty of. Going to be VERY interesting to see how Biden manages the insane riots that are likely to follow an acquittal.
Both autopsy reports concluded that floyd died due to Chauvin restraining him in a way not consistent with guidelines. Does not matter the exact definition.
Chauvin KILLED him.
The Facist right doesn’t care about the Truth. That is why they have no problem claiming an election was stolen because they lost. “The evidence is coming” was a chant that the idiot lawyers trump hired repeated for months and that was exponentially spread by fox entertainment or it’s fakely name so called ‘news’ personalities. Millions of gullible americans gave trump their money which he basically stole from them. Hundreds of gullible americans are going to jail and are in serious criminal trouble because trump encouraged them to attack congress.
Chauvin will be found guilty because he is a murderer in a blue uniform.
“That may be true, but the prosecution has argued that the police have a responsibility to do all they can to keep a person in their custody healthy, especially if he’s restrained, i.e. in handcuffs.”
Even if an officer failed to keep a prisoner healthy, that failure isn’t legally murder.
TVAP,
He was charged with murder, murder and murder. If he is convicted on murder, it will be a successful prosecution.
Floyd was already cuffed and in the back of the police car when Chauvin pulled him out and then proceeded to kill him. Floyd was not resisting while Chauvin and two other officers put their knee on his neck, torso and body. The police radioed for code 2 and code 3 medical emergency immediately because Floyd was bleeding from the mouth. Chauvin continued to keep his neck on him for another 7 minutes, 4 minutes after the video shows him going limp. 16 times he told the officers that he can’t breathe. The police checked for a pulse and found none. BUT STILL CHAUVIN DID NOT TAKE HIS FOOT OFF OF HIS NECK.
All this for a fake 20 dollar bill.It is certaunly negligent.
“16 times he told the officers that he can’t breathe.”
He was saying this before he was pinned to the ground, its on the video.
“All this for a fake 20 dollar bill”
Misleading. It started because of a fake 20 and escalated to this due to his erratic (quite possibly drug induced) behavior (no, erratic behavior shouldn’t end up with the person dead)
Clearly Jackk is looking at this case objectively. I suggest you actually watch the trial and not just the 2 min talking point videos pulled by the media which confirm you biases. Particularly, the testimony from 4/7.
All the defense needs for an acquittal is reasonable doubt. IMO, having watched all of the testimony (it’s all on YouTube) the only charge that has merit is 2nd degree manslaughter and even that isn’t a slam dunk.Chauvin objectively deserves to be acquitted of murder. But the BLM/Antifa lynch mob ready to burn down Minneapolis, Louisville, Seattle,Portland etc. demanding a verdict of guilty, on threat of a riot, will in all likelihood scare the court and jurors in carrying out the mobs demand for a specific verdict.
I know in the Torah we say “Yom oh yomayim”, that if a person dies from a medical complication then the attacker isn’t chayav misa. But I don’t think that applies here. If someone mugs and attacks an elderly man, causing him to have a heart attack, do we say that the mugger is innocent because the man had a bad heart?
Jackk, turns out that discussing ALL the facts-even those that are inconvenient -does NOT make one a fascist. But if course, the way you guys have treated the terms “fascist, racist, bigot ect” have rendered them completely meaningless.
I don’t know where you got your info from, but I’m pretty sure ujm is correct when he said “An autopsy showed Floyd’s neck muscles were not even bruised.”
George had fatal levels of drugs in his system, and underlying conditions that both -at the very least- contributed to his death. This that he was saying “I can’t breathe” is meaningless -he was saying that before Chauvin even arrived at the scene. This is Chauvins defense, and it seems pretty strong to me. Chauvins knee probably played a role as well, and that is why we have a court case, to determine exactly what he is responsible for. Jackk, isn’t it great we have some form of a justice system that doesn’t allow us to convict anyone who seems to have committed a crime, before it’s proven they committed a crime?I
“He was charged with murder, murder and murder. If he is convicted on murder, it will be a successful prosecution”- Factually incorrect, at least from the Woke Mobs perspective. He was charged with different levels of murder, each with their own consequences. If the Woke Mob decides that due to “systemic racism” , the sentence was to light, the riots to likely follow will make last summer’s riots look like child’s play.Yserbius, what are saying? Floyd was in drugs, had underlying medical conditions, and was going crazy BEFORE Chauvin arrived at the scene.
bk613,
“He was saying this before he was pinned to the ground, its on the video.”– Therefore ?
“All this for a fake 20 dollar bill
Misleading. It started because of a fake 20 and escalated to this due to his erratic (quite possibly drug induced) behavior (no, erratic behavior shouldn’t end up with the person dead). ”
– That is exactly what I meant.“IMO, having watched all of the testimony (it’s all on YouTube) the only charge that has merit is 2nd degree manslaughter”.
– We agree again.I have learnt from past trials ( OJ for example) and from a very experienced lawyer that watching a trial is completely worthless in terms of deciding guilt. Watching a video of the crime is similarly worthless.
The jury has a very limited and narrow view of the trial. They are the only ones who have any power.Oh Jackk -“Both autopsy reports concluded that floyd died due to Chauvin restraining him in a way not consistent with guidelines”
Stop with your Liberal Nonsense!
Cops have to do whatever they can to restrain a violent criminal.
And what Chauvin did with the Neck restraint was part of the Police protocol at that time.
They only removed this protocol, all over the US, because Floyd died when a cop used it!DovidBT -“That may be true, but the prosecution has argued that the police have a responsibility to do all they can to keep a person in their custody healthy, especially if he’s restrained, i.e. in handcuffs”
I believe that you are trying to be honest, Not like the Libs here.
You probably have no idea about police procedures.
Handcuffs are very little restraint.
Now if he was in a hobble restraint, then the prosecutors would have a good case!
But this case is about giving in to the Woke Mob, nothing to do with Justice!So a New case of a cop killing a black man.
So what are the Liberals, like Biden gonna do?
I have it – No more Cops.
All stores should give everything for Free!
Only white people should pay for items.
This loonecy will make the whole world run here.
Thank you Libs!TVOP -“I don’t think Chauvin will be found guilty of all the charges the Woke Mob want him to found guilty of.”
Sorry, I was right!
“They also will probably find Chauvin guilty to appease the Woke Mob!”You are probably living in 1980.
This country has gone Down faster than a Speeding Bullet!It is great to see justice done
Occasionally the justice system worksThe jury was intimadated by the mobs waiting to riot, loot and burn if the desired guilty verdict wasn’t achieved. So the jury complied under threat.
Ujm -“The jury was intimadated by the mobs waiting to riot, loot and burn if the desired guilty verdict wasn’t achieved. So the jury complied under threat”
Any decent Defense lawyer would demand that the Trial take place out of Minneapolis.
He didn’t stand a chance for a Just Trial!See how Rav Hoffman feels about it at:
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.