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I was horrified by what happened to George Floyd.
After a while though i started thinking… Since when does putting pressure on the back of the neck restrict ones breathing?
I went even further, i tested it. I asked my friend to kneel on the back of my neck. He did. And you know what? It hurt like heck, but breathing was NOT an issue.
I went back to watch the video again. I saw that the position floyd was in was a little different than what i did, so i have to do it again.
But that got me thinking.
CAN ANYONE KNOW HOW HARD THE COP WAS PRESSING? AND DOES A KNEE TO THE BACK OF THE NECK STOP SOMEONES BREATHING?Maybe cop is telling the truth. And maybe he didnt get off him because he RIGHTFULLY thought it was a bluff.
Thats my thought process now. I’m curios why its never come up with all the other stuff. Probably because people are afraid that if they doubt the murder then they will be ‘racist’. But its an important question…
what does the oilam think?
George Floyd was not strangled. While kneeling on someone’s neck can cause asphyxiation and loss of blood flow to the brain, Floyd died from a combination of intoxicants in his system and underlying health conditions exacerbated by having the cops kneeling on his neck (aka he had a heart condition and being high and extreme stress plus a heavy weight pushing on you is not great for your health normally, let alone if you have a heart condition).
Read the medical reports. There was another officer kneeling on Floyd’s upper back which restricted his ability to breathe.
Floyd’s family commissioned a second autopsy, carried out by Michael Baden, a pathologist and former New York City chief medical examiner who had autopsied Eric Garner,[72][73] and attended by Allecia Wilson, director of autopsy and forensic services at the University of Michigan Medical School.[74][75] He found that the “evidence is consistent with mechanical asphyxia as the cause of Floyd’s death”, and that the death was a homicide.[76][77][74] He said Floyd died from “asphyxia due to compression of the neck”, affecting “blood flow and oxygen going into the brain”, and also from “compression of the back, which interferes with breathing”.[65] He said Floyd had no underlying medical problem that caused or contributed to his death, and that being able to speak does not mean that someone is able to breathe.[78]
One of the most shocking aspects to me was, as he said “I can’t breathe” but cold Cauvin had his hands in his pocket , and the black cop couldn’t care either. I cried. Especially as a Yid, rachmonim bnei rachmonim
According to Detroit’s own records, police have knocked 44 people unconscious in the last 5 years with neck kneels. You fall unconscious when the lack of oxygen/ blood to your brain is limited, and continued pressure/ lack of oxygen and blood could definitely kill you. Yes, adding stress/ heart issues/ possible drugs could make it happen faster.
Keep in mind police would be trained in the necessary pressure points, unlike your friend. But I wouldn’t try again because him accidentally shifting his weight could chas v’shalom cause severe injury.
Interesting point the OP is making.
While I have nit watched the clip, healthy people have collateral circulation and two arteries positioned at the opposite sides of their neck that feed blood to the brain, I dont think that applying pressure to the back of the neck without using any hands would cut off circulation, but I havent experimented it either..
I asked a police officer who told me that using the knee is basic academy training, and should not kill anyone.
But as I mentioned, I am no expert and haven’t even tried it.
“Since when does putting pressure on the back of the neck restrict ones breathing?”
sine the Ribono Shel olam desined man with a narrow area though which blood vessels and the trachea travel.
“CAN ANYONE KNOW HOW HARD THE COP WAS PRESSING?”
you mean how much psi of pressure he placed? no I don’t think so.“AND DOES A KNEE TO THE BACK OF THE NECK STOP SOMEONES BREATHING?”
Yes,“I’m curios why its never come up with all the other stuff. ”
It has come up and it will in court.A point you are missing is the knee placement itself wasn’t the problem. It was a valid for of restraint at the time. But , and htis is key, for a “actively resisting suspect” Once Floyd was no longer resisting keeping his knee there was assault. Once peopl called out asking if he was breathing and Chauvin made no effort to check on his victim, he displayed a blatant disregard for human life.
In my mind THAT is where the charges arise.
Not for the original knee placement which MAY (I don’t know why he chauvin dragged him out of the car, that part is still unclear) have been justifiable. What inevitably happens in these discussions is people mistakenly think once force becomes justifiable all bets are off. This is of course nonsense.Rewatch the tape, see if Floyd is resisting , and ask yourself every minute or so, if AT THAT POINT force was justifiable.
The court released the transcript of the encounter the police had with Floyd from beginning to end based on the bodycam of the officer who was 1st on the scene. And from the transcript it is clear that the video the world saw was taken completely out of context. George Floyd started yelling about how he can’t breathe over and over from the very beginning, refusing to get into the back of the police car after he was placed under arrest and insisted on laying down on the ground. This was way before Derek Chauvin, the officer who put his knee on Floyd’s neck showed up at the scene. And when the cops started to think that he wasn’t lying and that maybe he actually couldn’t breathe, they speak of him having a medical emergency. He was out of his mind on a terrible combination of drugs, fentanyl and meth, and people extremely high on drugs that get overly excited go into what is called delirium which can result in death. But what is clear is that he was yelling he can’t breathe way before a knee was placed on his neck and that the knee on his neck was not the reason he couldn’t breathe. If the liberal mayor of Minneapolis would have released this bodycam footage the world would have realized that George Floyd was not murdered.
See pages 12,13 where he is yelling he can’t breathe way before Chauvin puts him on the ground.
link to nytimes article removed
Ubiq,
“sine the Ribono Shel olam desined man with a narrow area though which blood vessels and the trachea travel.”
The trachea is more anterior, I don’t see why pressing the posterior of the neck should occlude one’s airway or it should impact circulation to the brain.
In fact, they labeled it positional asphyxia, meaning its the exact position that caused the victim/patient to asphyxiate.
I am not claiming to be an expert in these or any matters, nor am I excusing any behavior that has a disregard for human life, I am just questioning the facts as we know them.
Mistykins,
“According to Detroit’s own records, police have knocked 44 people unconscious in the last 5 years with neck kneels.”
This number is meaningless without a complete context.
How many arrests over 5 years? How many of those arrests utilized the knee to the back of the neck approach?
is it 44 out of 40? or 44 out of 4400?
How many people became unresponsive when placed in handcuffs or simply booked in jail? over 5 years or over 10 years?
Numbers mean very little when taken out of context.
Dear Bais,
I pointed this out on one of the conversations here. George Floyd was murdered. Not sure why being intoxicated is license to be killed.“The trachea is more anterior, I don’t see why pressing the posterior of the neck should occlude one’s airway or it should impact circulation to the brain”
I dont really understand your question.
The entire neck is compressible, Chauvin had Floyd’s neck pressed against the soldi ground
This would absolutely be expected to constrict the airway whether constricted anterior or posteriorly if it is held against a fixed surface (the ground)chash
“The answers that DO work are the ones that explain that the asphyxiation was due to the blood flow being restricted, not the difficulty breathing.”
There are two carotid arteries feeding blood supply to the brain, they are located on both sides of the neck more towards the front. occluding one, should not cause a normal healthy person to go into cardiac arrest.
ubiq,
“I dont really understand your question.
The entire neck is compressible, Chauvin had Floyd’s neck pressed against the soldi ground
This would absolutely be expected to constrict the airway whether constricted anterior or posteriorly if it is held against a fixed surface (the ground)”True, if there is hard surface at both sides, such as the knee and something else, that would compress the trachea which would occlude the airway and asphyxiate the victim. However, just holding one’s knee to the posterior of the head does not necessarily asphyxiate, I am trying to picture this and it seems that the head which is a large bony structure would actually prevent the ground which is flat and large to compress the neck.
Unless there was a smaller hard object that compressed the neck anteriorly.
Which is why they are naming it positional asphyxia. Positional asphyxia also is used to explain why despite being able to talk, which requires inhalation and exhalation the victim still asphyxiated.
As I noted, I might very likely be completely wrong with all of this, but if we focus on the dry facts, the facts are not so clean. (I have still not watched the video, and have no intentions on doing so at the moment).
n0m, you are probably one of those liars who insist to this day that Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Alton Stewart, Sandra Bland, Tamir Rice, Freddy Gray, Jamar Clark, and many others were all murdered. The truth is NONE of them were murdered. Most of them richly deserved their deaths. The rest were unfortunate victims of circumstance. But not one was the victim of wrongdoing by anyone. And anyone who says otherwise is a liar.
n0m, nobody could be that stupid. You are lying on purpose.
Floyd was definitely not murdered. There is no doubt of that. The worst possible verdict is manslaughter by neglect, i.e. the cops should have checked on him more frequently, and once he stopped struggling they should have moved him to a different position. Maybe.
But the main cause for his death seems to be the large dose of fentanyl that he had just swallowed, and his generally bad health condition. He brought his own death on himself, just like Eric Garner did. Pressure to his back (not his neck) may have contributed slightly, and may have been the factor that pushed him over the edge he had placed himself at. That is all.
Dear Chash,
I pointed out on a different thread that George Floyd was claustrophobic already in the car.
I was replying to a poster that typed, “the world would have realized that George Floyd was not murdered.”
Tell me, do you think he would have died without the cop’s knee on his neck?
“Unless there was a smaller hard object that compressed the neck anteriorly.”
Yes the ground (Though it wasnt exactly anterior. Chauvin’s knee is to the right of Floy’ds neck and the ground on the left
“Did you get a chance to see the video?”
Yep
“It does not appear that his neck was pressed against the ground”
It was“Now, I CAN fathom that if enough pressure is put on the side of the neck it may restrict the breathing”
So there you go, as you state “His head was actually turned sideways”“a very difficult thing indeed if you think about it”
Ok so that Makes Chauvin’s act all the more depraved“However the point is, before you “gird your loins to fight the moral fight””
no girding necessary . The video speaks for itself
I just watched the video again, and his neck is definitely on the ground with his head being at an odd angle. So I think everyone here (with the possible exemption of Milhouse) believes that it is definitely possible that Floyd died of asphyxiation. Therefore the facts are not problematic.
Now that we established this, I think we can safely say that the video speaks for itself.Milhouse,
You often say “ Floyd was definitely not murdered.”, but you have never actually proved that he wasn’t murdered or even tried to. All you have ever said is that it is possible that he died from something else, but that doesn’t prove that he didn’t die of asphyxiation.The former ME who concluded that it was murder is payed to find murder always. Epstein committed suicide. He decided it was murder.
Oh really? How exactly would you know if he committed suicide or not?
2scents, the “victim” DID NOT ASPHYXIATE. There was no physical sign of it.
Dear Chash,
To think someone died of other causes while they were in a chokehold (while possible) is entirely unreasonable.I have been with people dying from cancer and organ failure. No comparison to a violent death. I have friends that had nearly fatal drug overdoses. He should have had symptoms before he was arrested.
When there is a fatal DUI, is it reasonable to suggest the death was over consumption of alcohol?
Dear Milhouse,
If someone attacks me for no reason, and the only way I could save myself is with fatal force, I would term that murder.The correct term is killing. Here is why I use them interchangeably.The term applies to animals, so I term it murder based on the act. But from a purely legal perspective, you appear to be correct. Murder has to be premeditated. That is only relevant when the Judge and Jury are deliberating in Court. The question to bring charges is a moral not a legal one. Morally, every intentional killing has to be considered as a possible murder. To do otherwise is to cheapen the value of life. [I know this is not abortion or end of life, so who cares if one person dies or lives.]
How many times have you been with someone who overdosed on fentanyl? You sound very sure of it. Maybe you are an EMT and specialize in Narcan delivery.
Nice list you put together. Maybe a percent of a percent of all police killings this decade.
N0m, you continue to lie and lie and lie and lie and lie. You are incapable of telling even one word of truth.
That you consider killing in legitimate self-defense or defense of others to be “murder” is telling. It proves that at least your screen name is not a lie — you have no mesorah and you are anti-Torah. Killing in self-defense or defense of others is not murder it is a MITZVAH. And the death of the attacker is a good thing to be celebrated.
Floyd swallowed a large dose of fentanyl immediately before being arrested.
And the list I gave was just the names that BLM is championing, which is why they came to mind. And not one of them was murdered. (Two of them weren’t even killed by police. Trayvon Martin was killed by an ordinary person whom he was trying to murder, and Sandra Bland committed suicide.) If there were a significant problem of police murdering black people, why can’t the BLM movement come up with even a single case to protest?
And they are completely typical of police killings, except for one thing: They were black, and that is NOT the typical police killing. Police are MORE LIKELY to kill white criminals than black ones. But nobody complains when they kill a good-for-nothing white criminal who was attacking them.
Even when a Somali Minneapolis policeman, who was hired for no other reason than his skin color, shot a white woman, Justine Damond, (and that WAS murder), and it took the state almost a year to charge him, there were no protests, let alone riots, and you certainly did not say one word about it, even though it was all over the news. You miserable hypocrite.
You need to find a more civil way to be angry.
Trayvon Martin wasn’t killing anybody. He was shot because he looked like someone who *might* kill somebody
Police frequently beat up people. Even when their our four healthy, fairly young, cops, and one unarmed middle-aged person (who probably wasn’t going to be charged – passing one, and only one, fake $20 suggests he didn’t anything illegal and was probably annoyed to find our that the bill in his wallet was possibly fake). Police routinely beat up people of all races. This is illegal.
It shouldn’t be noted that police generally don’t beat up rich people. Police tend to be very polite to well dressed, well educated and apparently affluent people. It has to do with class. It is surprising that the self-proclaimed socialists haven’t caught on to this, since class distinctions are a core part of Marxist sociology.
Trump would be clever to explain he fully understands “Black lives matter” but that the lives of his supporters also matter and “Deplorables’ lives matter”, and that the solution is not to say that only Black lives matters but that the police should respect persons regardless of who or what they are. Of he said that, he would be a Libertarian (Rand Paul would be proud, the big government Republicans would be shocked).
“The front of Mr. Floyds neck was not pressed on the ground. The side was.”
correct, as I pointed out.“Hence the question, can pressing the side of the neck constrict the airway, even if the trachea itself isnt being pushed against anything.”
1 Yes easily.
2. The trachea is in the neck if the neck is constricted the trachea is. Keep in mind even if a person’s rachea isnt completely constricted he can still asphyxiate if he is not getting enough air (aside from the issue of the carotid arteries being compressed as well)Milhouse
“2scents, the “victim” DID NOT ASPHYXIATE. There was no physical sign of it.”
I am not a pathologist or have any experience in post mortem pathology, I would not know what to look for to see if there was asphyxiation or not.
I just read the autopsy report, from the Hennepin County medical examiner. There is nothing in the report that would indicate the cause of death. Yet, they do list pretty decent doses of opioids found in the patients blood and that was mixed with meth.
This leaves room for the defense to argue that what actually was happening was the opioids kicking in, which cause respiratory depression and not the knee to the neck.
Millhouse -“Floyd was definitely not murdered.”
1. There will be a trial to see if he is Guilty of any crime. I hope it will be a Fair Trial by his Peers.
2. If found Guilty, he’s Minn.’s Scapegoat!
This Knee choke was an accepted Police Practice, until the Death of Floyd. It was used everywhere.
Not just that, they used it many times to make s/o unconsious.
If this is a procedure that’s WRONG, then the Musilm AG & The Police Chief should be the Ones on Trial. They made the Protocol! The cop used it to make the PERP unconsious for Only 3 minutes.Dear Ubiquitin,
Is this the same as a too tight necktie causing one to gasp for breath?Dear Milhouse,
Killing in self defense is not the mitzvah. Maintaining life and not standing idle when a life can be saved is.“And the death of the attacker is a good thing to be celebrated.” Is this overstated? I can not think of a clear source for it.
Dear Milhouse,
Why would you refer to me as a liar when I typed, “you appear to be correct”? I agree with your legal definition of murder. And I explained why that is not the discussion here. If you consider yourself the Judge Of The High Court and are in the midst of presiding over these charges, then the discussion would be exactly as you termed it. My apologies.Dear Milhouse,
I googled, Floyd swallowed a large dose of fentanyl immediately before being arrested. Here is what I got.1 Autopsy report Hennepin County PDF
2 CDC overdos resopnse
3 A piece from Psychology Today about blaming drug victims.
4 KNSI Drug Toxicity had no Bearing On George Floyd’s Case
5 A story about a toddler overdosing 18 months ago.
6 Same. Different paper.
7 A readme about fentanyl.
8 A story of a dog that overdosed in 2016.
9 Medpage article that he ided from Police restraint.
10 The Yeshiva World reply #1881659n0mesor,
I am not sure the source for Floyd swallowing drugs prior to his arrest. However, the amounts found in his blood were pretty decent, especially if you combine all the different types of opioids together. When that gets mixed with meth, it can do really bad things.
Now, people respond differently to different levels of opioids, depending on how often and much they ‘use’ these drugs.
Anyone thinking what I am thinking? if those police get off, innocent or guilty, Heaven help us! I mean the Rodney King riots that I was here for in LA was after the cops got off lightly. THESE RIOTS WERE PRE TRIAL. OMG imagine how far the liberalised USA will go with anger and rage if the officers are found innocent of murder! I am packing my bags out of here for our own safety…i witnessed enough rage last month off my own mapeset.
OMG imagine how far the liberalised USA will go with anger and rage if the officers are found innocent of murder!
Our justice system is not based on YouTube videos or fear of thugs rioting. What happened to “innocent until proven guilty” in a court?
The way to stop the rioting is effective law enforcement, not giving in to the rioters’ demands.
Syag, Trayvon Martin was in the act of murdering George ZImmerman. He was bashing his head into the concrete. What he looked like had absolutely nothing to do with it. Nor did his race play any role in the entire episode.
And the death of such a person is a good thing, because it makes everyone around him safer. All the people who would have been his victims had he lived are now safe from him. Ba’avod Resha’im Rina. The Gemara says explicitly that although Hashem does not rejoice at the death of the wicked, he encourages others to rejoice. When the Egyptians drowned He didn’t want the mal’achim to sing, but He did want us to sing. Binfol Oyivcha applies only to our fellow Bnei Yisrael.
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