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SaysMe -“Health-meant i’m not getting into the discussion of whether it was muttar or not, cuz thats a halacha q. But i’m quite sure that the ‘hurting the relative’ comment was assur.”
First you say you won’t discuss Ossur or Mutter, then you say the comment about the relative is Ossur! A little contradiction -don’t you think? It probably is a good idea for you not to say Mutter or Ossur -it doesn’t sound like you have such a handle on Halacha like some of us here.
And I’m pretty sure that that comment is Mutter, unless she was putting down the relative and not just the OP!
“it doesn’t sound like you have such a handle on Halacha like some of us here.”
My goodness. I hope you don’t say that to Baalei Teshuva. Or anyone, anymore, for that matter.
MP – Well I don’t think people without a solid background in Halacha should be posting their opinion on whether something is Mutter or Ossur.
Aries, if OP was sitting there dressed in not-tsniusdic fashion, and everybody was able to see it, then it was mutar for the two ladies to discuss it.
“It probably is a good idea for you not to say Mutter or Ossur -it doesn’t sound like you have such a handle on Halacha like some of us here.”
Ouch. Can’t say i’d know if you have better halachik knowledge than me or not. I do know that i do try to be careful, and i have learned sifrei chofetz chaim and abt giving tochacha and about whats muttar to say or not, many times, alone, from teachers, and from rabbanei ha’ir.
You too only claimed you are “pretty sure that that comment is Mutter”. And I feel it is assur. to each their own? I am staying away from paskening because i am not a posek and have no desire to give others a psak. both sides were already argued, and it seems most the posters are stuck on their opinion, not really listening to find an answer. I avoided that conversation, and stepped back on my opinion too already. Each can go to his own sforim and Rav for a psak. I only commented on the biting comments and put downs that were going out. Like this one above? If you’d sent that line to someone else, i’d also comment to you.
Thank you MiddlePath for your moral support. I really appreciate it!
Health: Well I don’t think people without a solid background in Halacha should be posting their opinion on whether something is Mutter or Ossur.
Then maybe you should stop saying some of your Halachic opinions here as well. And no, I would normally not be so offensive but your comment warranted that I defend the person you directed that too, especially as (s)he was right. There is no Heter to make grossly insult someone, especially behind their backs, regardless of if that person did something Assur. Please, try, tell me what To’eles there is in saying “her relative should be ashamed of her”.
SAM2, when talking behind her back with both of them seeing the offence, there are no rules of toeles, and they are allowed to be frank. Repeating it to Skiaddict is a different shaila.
SaysMe -“Ouch. Can’t say i’d know if you have better halachik knowledge than me or not.”
Obviously I do because there is nothing wrong with anything she said! How about Danning this lady L’caf Zecus? Did you ever hear of this Chiyuv?
“You too only claimed you are “pretty sure that that comment is Mutter”. And I feel it is assur. to each their own?”
I only said that because I’m not paskening, e/o should ask their own LOR! But the Halacha is quite clear – as long as she didn’t insult the relative of the OP!
“I am staying away from paskening because i am not a posek and have no desire to give others a psak.”
But you did it anyway -“But i’m quite sure that the ‘hurting the relative’ comment was assur.”
Mdd: Show me a source for that. Even if it’s not Lashon Harah (which I highly doubt), it is rude and serves no purpose and is an extreme lack of Ve’ahavta L’rei’acha Kamocha.
mdd: I really don’t think you are correct about this. You might want to ask a shaila before you actually do it.
Sam2 -“Then maybe you should stop saying some of your Halachic opinions here as well. And no, I would normally not be so offensive but your comment warranted that I defend the person you directed that too, especially as (s)he was right.”
Your offense is not reasonable. You’re not the great Poisek you think you are. And that poster is Wrong!
“There is no Heter to make grossly insult someone, especially behind their backs, regardless of if that person did something Assur. Please, try, tell me what To’eles there is in saying “her relative should be ashamed of her”.”
Stop basing the Halacha from what the posters here post. Go back and study the CC chap. 4 and you will see that I’m 100% correct in this case! You don’t need Toeles in cases like these.
Health: I never base an opinion on what other posters post. And I’m not necessarily talking “To’eles” as in from Dinei Lashon Harah. I’m saying there’s no purpose in it, so why would you say it? It also shows an extreme lack of Ve’ahavta L’reiacha Kamocha.
Besides, we all have no idea what this “breach of Tznius” was. I am assuming that it wasn’t a gross breach or Ski would have left the wedding. If she was Mamash Halachically not dressed then I can see the comments being Muttar, if still even a bit out of line. I am assuming that this “breach in Tznius” was something minor that is probably not visible at most times.
I agree with Sam2. Even if the two women talking behind her back are not transgressing any “lashon hara” issue, it is DEFINITELY rude, serves no purpose, and is a breach of v’ahavta l’reiacha kamocha. Besides that, there are a few other problems with it:
1)It can easily LEAD to lashon hara, so why put yourself into such a situation.
2) It can make someone more accustomed to talking negatively about others, which is definitely not something a Jew should be doing.
3) This is something my mom told me: In general, it is not a good a idea to talk about the flaws in another person because G-d will then take a closer look at your own flaws, and judge you as harshly as you judged that person.
SaysMe, I appreciate that!
mdd, just because you keep repeating it that doesn’t make you right. I completely disagree with you. It was loshon horah and they should have guarded their tongues! Just because it was a tznius issue it was no different than speaking about whether they liked her hair or shoes or anything else about her.
sam2, what relevance is it if it was “minor” or if the breach wasn’t visible all the time? Even if the knees and above “only” showed sometimes it is a public aveira.
Sam2 -“Health: I never base an opinion on what other posters post. And I’m not necessarily talking “To’eles” as in from Dinei Lashon Harah. I’m saying there’s no purpose in it, so why would you say it? It also shows an extreme lack of Ve’ahavta L’reiacha Kamocha.”
There is No Din of Veahavta, just like there is no Din of L’H.
And the purpose was -just in case it got back to the girl (which in this case it did) she should feel bad. And even if it wouldn’t have gotten back (because the girl keeps Hilchos of Rechilos) the girl that the woman spoke to will learn right from wrong!
“Besides, we all have no idea what this “breach of Tznius” was. I am assuming that it wasn’t a gross breach or Ski would have left the wedding. If she was Mamash Halachically not dressed then I can see the comments being Muttar, if still even a bit out of line. I am assuming that this “breach in Tznius” was something minor that is probably not visible at most times.”
Funny, and I assume just the opposite. I think this girl did a major breach and she comes here knowing almost all the posters will feel bad for her.
MiddlePath -“I agree with Sam2. Even if the two women talking behind her back are not transgressing any “lashon hara” issue, it is DEFINITELY rude, serves no purpose, and is a breach of v’ahavta l’reiacha kamocha. Besides that, there are a few other problems with it:
1)It can easily LEAD to lashon hara, so why put yourself into such a situation.
2) It can make someone more accustomed to talking negatively about others, which is definitely not something a Jew should be doing.
3) This is something my mom told me: In general, it is not a good a idea to talk about the flaws in another person because G-d will then take a closer look at your own flaws, and judge you as harshly as you judged that person.”
These are definitely good points to have in life, but they don’t apply here! It is a good thing to speak bad on such a person -see my post above!
there are many ways to be dan l’kaf zchus the lady for commenting on the tznius violation, and it may be muttar. the extra comment “her relative should be ashamed of her”…
“it is forbidden to say a/t about a person that might embarrass him if it were to be repeated in his presence… unless its for a constructive purpose.” what constructive purpose was there in that? being an opinion, not fact, also makes it hotzaas shem ra. only about a mumar l’hachis is it muttar to focus on his negatives-but still only facts. “however, one who sins out of ignorance or temptation is in the category of amecha and is forbidden to speak l”h about.”
i know, its terrible to quote an English sefer Cofetz Chaim, but its easier to type.
ski, that’s very nice and sensitive of you to look at it in such a way. Keep it up!
Health, those points I made apply ALWAYS, and specifically in a situation like this, where it is so easy to slip up and say lashon hara. And I don’t agree with you that it is a good thing to speak bad about such a person. I don’t think it is ever good to speak bad about anyone, anytime. Even in a circumstance where technically it may be allowed, which is very rare, I still wouldn’t do it. And I definitely wouldn’t be eager to do it, and nor should you, or anyone else. Just think about how wrong that is: “Oooh, look, I have an opportunity to speak bad about someone and I won’t get an aveira for it! I can’t wait to do it!” I’m sorry, but there is something terrible about that.
Health: What do you mean there is no Din of Ve’ohavta?
all I can say is that I am sure this lady who commented had her own problems in her life, maybe you ALSO should (forgive her and) be don lekaf zechus, maybe her daughter/relatives dress like that and it disturbs her but she can’t comment on her own relations!
hatzlocha raboh
sometimes it is a mtzvah to davka speak l”h about someone. I don’t know if it would aply in the op’s case.
Sam2, stop defending the ovrei aveira so much, and start defending the Torah!! And my assumption is also that Skiaddict wore something clearly in violation of Halocha.
Aries, it does not matter what you feel or think, Halocha is Halocha. Learn the “Chofets Chaim”. Do not create issurim where there are none, and stop defending the ovrei aviera.
Skiaddict, dress tsniusdic and you won’t be spoken about.
mdd- if we’re dispensing mussar and its for a purpose, no hard feelings involved, may i suggest you learn hilchos onaas devorim. I’d be careful before accusing anyone of anything, if they’re NOT doing an aveira which you believe would mattir it, so don’t accuse Aries of ignorance nor Sam2 of misplaced priorities. Learning how to be sensitive in speech is part of the teachings of the chofetz chaim. maybe reread sefer shmiras halashon. The chofetz chaim foundation also has an amazing sefer called positive word power. Not giving you a psak! just my opinion! And lets all try to keep the discussion practical and not turn it into personal attacks from now on. (i know that was soo hypocritical of me :), but i wanted to get that out- not a personal attack. I apologize if it came out that way)
Mdd: Do not get lost in your zeal to defend the Torah. Defending Halacha does not mean that you can whitewash improper things. There were two improprieties done here. Neither one removes the other. The lack of Tznius does not condone the improper speech and the improper speech does not condone the lack of Tznius. If the topic of this discussion was Tznius then I would be discussing it from that point. Since the topic is Lashon Harah, that was the main point I discussed.
Skiaddict, sorry for saying it like it is. I am posting here to straighten out some people.
Now, Sam2, I was quite appalled when at the beginning of this thread hardly anyone was upset at someone who did an aveira, and had the nerve to do it in public, and then was mad at a lady for expressing her dismay at her wrongdoing. Instead, almost everybody was speaking out against the woman who opposed the breach of Halocha and all those people were busy inventing issurim that she allegedly was over. Outrageous!!
Mods, can you do your thing and make this thread go away?
SaysMe -“there are many ways to be dan l’kaf zchus the lady for commenting on the tznius violation, and it may be muttar. the extra comment “her relative should be ashamed of her”…
“it is forbidden to say a/t about a person that might embarrass him if it were to be repeated in his presence… unless its for a constructive purpose.” what constructive purpose was there in that? being an opinion, not fact, also makes it hotzaas shem ra.”
You changed what the lady said just to “prove” you are right. Did you really think I wouldn’t remember what she said that was posted on page 1? Why can’t you admit that there is nothing wrong with what this lady said? It’s better to admit that you don’t know the Halachos so well, than to make up your own.
Here is the quote -“how much pain i must be causing a relative of mine, by dressing like that..”
Please go review the CC inside the Hebrew version before you respond to me. Everything I posted here is based on Halacha, not whether I “feel” it’s Ossur or Mutter!
MiddlePath -“Health, those points I made apply ALWAYS, and specifically in a situation like this, where it is so easy to slip up and say lashon hara.”
Wrong, not in this case where she should have s/o speak about her way of dress.
“And I don’t agree with you that it is a good thing to speak bad about such a person. I don’t think it is ever good to speak bad about anyone, anytime. Even in a circumstance where technically it may be allowed, which is very rare, I still wouldn’t do it. And I definitely wouldn’t be eager to do it, and nor should you, or anyone else. Just think about how wrong that is: “Oooh, look, I have an opportunity to speak bad about someone and I won’t get an aveira for it! I can’t wait to do it!” I’m sorry, but there is something terrible about that.”
Just so you know -you are arguing with the Chofetz Chaim. Speaking LH or doing any Aveirah isn’t Ossur because it’s not a nice thing to do. It could be it’s not nice and it could be it’s nice. It’s Ossur to do Aveiros because Hashem said so. In this case the Halacha says you should speak bad and it actually accomplished a purpose -because she got embarrassed about her way of dress!
Sam2 -“Health: What do you mean there is no Din of Ve’ohavta?”
Exactly what I said -it’s self explanatory.
i’m pretty sure we’re all discussing halacha here and not opinion, so don’t get high-and-mighty.
first of all, what difference does the wording betw those two make? why would one be muttar and the other assur?
second, no, i wasn’t trying to chance what was said to prove i was right, because i think the halachos i quoted still old true. Yes i misquoted the original, not to twist it, but because i copied it from another poster on this page. innocent error. my stance still applies.
i’m quite sure i admitted to possibly not knowing all halachos inside and out, but i sat with the C”C yesterday for an hour and those were quotes, not made up. If you give me a specific source in the C”C, i will gladly look it up.
and again, the discussion lately here is not abt the commment on tznius- which holds true for someone speaking up against it- but abt the extra insult which i terribly misquoted. to speak up in a way to bring attn to her dress, yes. to embarrass additionally, and without basis or knowledge of truth in her words, no.
the first time u give tochacha u must give it quitely and nicely. If the person persists in continuing to do the aveira after receiving quiet tochacha, you are supposed to publicly embarass her for being a continuous aveira-doer.
SaysMe -“first of all, what difference does the wording betw those two make? why would one be muttar and the other assur? to embarass additionally, and without basis or knowledge of truth in her words, no.”
I frankly don’t know who you are talking about – the OP or the relative? You aren’t coherent. The OP you can say that line about the relative -there is nothing wrong with embarassing her because she does this Aveira all the time (her words, not mine).
The relative I already posted above (if you read my posts before commenting on them???) – “And I’m pretty sure that that comment is Mutter, unless she was putting down the relative and not just the OP!”.
So the difference between the wording is -if the lady said -“how much pain i must be causing a relative of mine, by dressing like that..”, this isn’t embarassing the relative as opposed to saying -“her relative should be ashamed of her”, which might be embarassing to the relative.
I just realized – that if you think that you aren’t allowed to embarass the OP perhaps because you are mixing up two Halachos.
The Halacha that would apply here is in C.C. Chap. 4:7.
My close friend was on the way to my house when she passed a chasidish family with a bunch of little kids. One of their young daughters said to her mother (loudly) “look mommy, its an off the derech girl.” The mother looked embarrassed and tried to quiet her kid.
This friend of mine has been having a really hard time lately at home, and might have done some things that a bais yaakov girl doesnt usually do. However, at that moment, she was wearing a completely tznius outfit and looked like any other frum girl in my school. No one who doesn’t could have guessed what she has been going through. I dont know how that kid could tell, but how are parents raising their kids now-that if someone is a little bit less religious then you, they are off the derech and need labeling. Everyone is always so judgemental. That in itself could make people like her not want to even try to become better.
My friend handled it very well and accepts that some people put labels on others before they have taken a walk in their shoes. Although i did let her now, I am the one who is horrified by this. She could have taken it the way she did, or this might have made someone like her not want to become better since she sees that people are going to put labels on her anyways.
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