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sam4 & popa: if I drove a motorcycle around my block on shabbosim, would you be surprised or have a taina if one neighbor told another how bad that is? Would you be upset at them as much you are with the lady at the op’s chasuna? And should I be given tochacha for giving in to my yetzer hora to drive on shabbosim? How is the op’s case different than my hypothetical?
The problem with this topic is that we don’t know exactly what the OP did wrong. E/o is just assuming that the older lady spoke LH. Perhaps she spoke LH and perhaps not. The OP is Not going to admit she walked in with a mini-skirt or a very low cut blouse, if she did. She also won’t admit that she does this all the time, if she does.
One thing I agree with is Don’t Judge Others! Since we don’t know whether the OP did a major breach of Tzinius or a minor breach -why is e/o taking sides? If it was a minor, then the lady who spoke about her was wrong. If it was a major, the lady who spoke bad – was doing the right thing! My post before was just giving some practical advice – I wasn’t taking sides!
Vayeitzei: I would hope that I would ignore your neighbor telling me how you are Mechallel Shabbos. Lashon Harah is Lashon Harah.
mdd- What you are saying is exactly the point the OP is trying to make. You are the classic example of a judgemental person. Tznius is very hard. It’s all very nice that you think women should have self control but who are you to judge? You obviously don’t know how hard it is.
skiaddict is right. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but some people have to learn to keep their mouths shut. It’s 100% Lashon Hara and in my opinion, worse then the breach of tznius. And it is not considered tochacha if you tell it to someone else.
So yes Vayeitzei, I would be surprised if someone told someone else about it. Well ok, I wouldn’t be surprised but I would be upset. It’s Lashon Hara. I think the main problem is that some people feel that their opinion is soooo important and that everybody cares. Well guess what? We don’t
yes you should be given tochacha for driving on shabbos, but that doesn’t give halachik permission for people to tell eachother as in what happened in the op story. If you really cared the person you would go over to THE PERSON DOING THE VIOLATION and give them tochacha in the right manner. That being said what happened there was a 100 percent wrong.She never had to say it to the friend more like what was she doing saying it to the friend
Skiaddict, rock-throwing on Shabbos is disapproved of because under the circumstances that is not the way to deal with the problem (you are not going to fix the frei majority this way). However, it is not something which is absolutely out of the wack — it is just not good under the circumstances. Besides, some hold that those chiloni people are tinokos she’nishbu. Plus, I have a shaila about the permissibility of the rock-throwing vis-a-vis Hilchos Shabbos.
PBA and Sam2, where is the mekor that if two people walk into a place and see someone eating treif (or wearing a mini-skirt), that it’s loshon hora to exchage a comment about it between themselves?
sam4 & popa: if I drove a motorcycle around my block on shabbosim, would you be surprised or have a taina if one neighbor told another how bad that is?
Huh? Yes, I would. That is called lashon hara, and no amount of self righteous indignation is going to change that.
Would you be upset at them as much you are with the lady at the op’s chasuna?
Yes.
And should I be given tochacha for giving in to my yetzer hora to drive on shabbosim?
Yes.
How is the op’s case different than my hypothetical?
Because, she wasn’t given tochacha. Someone just told lashon hara about her.
If she had been given tochacha, it would probably have been done wrongly anyway, and we’d be having that discussion.
SAm2, the case here is that both ladies could see that the OP was not dressed proprely.
Cinderella, we are not talking about peronal opininos — we are talking about Halocha. Not being judgemental is a Christian ideal.
Cinderella, and you, as a woman, have no idea how big of a yetzer hora men have for all kinds of untznius or worse. Yet, the earliche men control themselves.
PBA, stop skiing, please, and explain where there was a breach of shmiras ha’loshon here.
Mdd: Assuming you are allowed to say anything, saying “her relative should be ashamed of her” is not something that you are allowed to say.
One of my favorite phrases from Tanach is “Diracheha Darchei Noam”. I believe that this phrase gives us an idea of how G-d wants us to act, and how to emulate Him. This would very much apply to how one should rebuke someone for a wrongdoing. It should be done in a non-threatening, pleasant, and soft-spoken way. Not by throwing rocks. Not by saying how “hurtful it must be for your relatives.”
I believe this phrase tells us that G-d wants us to do everything in a positive way. Even rebuking someone, which can be viewed as a negative experience, should be done in the most pleasant way possible. And definitely not through telling someone else about it, which (as others have pointed out) is almost certainly lashon harah, and can only end up negatively.
.. the common denominator is self-control…”
The person giving tochacha should exert self-control. Words should be chosen carefully, lest someone’s feelings gets hurt.
What truly troubles me about this issue is that the same people who would ask their Rov before changing from a half windsor to a full windsor knot in their tie feel it is perfectly all right to judge and give tochacha and perhaps even talk in public or private about someone else’s halachic challenges, be they in tznius or anything else. Why is it necessary to get Rabbinnic guidance on minutiae but fly solo on something that could make one oiver hamalbin pnei chaveiro brabim, among other issurim?
Can you honestly say that if your friend and neighbor that you went to yeshiva with started taking a spin around the block on his motorcycle on shabbos afternoons, that you wouldn’t ever talk to anyone (other than the shabbos biker) about what’s going on?
Ok, so the question on the floor is:
Is it lashon hara to for two people who see someone do something together, to then speak to each other derogatorily about it?
I will try to pull out the ol’ sefer chofetz chaim over shabbos, and get back to you.
ok im gonna be really unpopular here and buck the trend…im not gonna give you encouragement, im not gonna commiserate, im not gonna be righteously indignant…im gonna ask you three simple questions.
1) were you aware that your style of dress would be out of line
2) if yes, did that knowledge make you constantly self conscious and give you the feeling that everyone was pointing and staring
3) if you answered yes to either of the above two questions…what on earth did you expect
whether or not the person who said something is right is absolutely irrelevant beause the problem is not them…the problem is you, and placing blame on them, again whether they are right or wrong, is your way of justifying what may or may not have been wrong on your part. so yes, they may have been wrong, but how is it relevant? you may be working on yourself and your tznius and that is indeed very commendable in an age when the world is trying to expose more if itself than cover up, but if you want to be in certain circles with all the requisite social norms and practices, then be prepared for the consequences of deviating. dont get angry or upset when people call you on it.
OK, it is true that if one rebukes someone for the first time or first couple of times(maybe) he has to be careful not to insult the person. If s(he) does not listen, it is halachically mutar to get sharp-tongued at later points in time. The issur of insulting or halbonas panim does not apply to a mumar (even le’teavon). The lady was allowed to use sharp tems while talking to the second lady. The second lady was not allowed to repeat the sharp words to Skiaddict. So, yes, Yichusdic, one has to know the Halochos about these things and oppose the violations in the proper way.
MiddlePath, how about executing or flogging ba’alei aveira? In other words, you have to know what “darkeya darkei noam” means.
“QueenBee, i’m impressed;) not the fact that you dont struggle with tzinus but the fact that you see it’s a struggle for others and feel for them even without struggling yourself.”
PrincessEagle, Thank you! That was really kind of you =).
MP: Everytime I hear/read “Diracheha Darchei Noam” I hear your song in my head!
Yet, the earliche men control themselves.”
mdd- Why are you comparing men and women? I’m not minimizing the fact that men have a huge yeitzer hara. I’m trying to say that you, as a male, cannot possibly understand the challenges we women have. I’m not pretending to understand the taivos men have.
My point is that it is not okay to judge people no matter what the situation. And if you do want to judge, keep it to yourself unless expressing your opinion will be constructive. Otherwise it’s Lashon hara.
mdd, first of all, execution and lashes were only done by the Beis Din of earlier times, who were on such a level that we can’t even imagine. Not by the rest of us. And definitely not in our times. And I’ve said what “diracheha darchei noam” means. It is a concept that tells us that G-d wants us to act in pleasant ways, in order to emulate Him. That means everything we do should be done in a pleasant way. And throwing rocks is NOT pleasant, no matter what the circumstances (excluding the execution of stoning which was determined by the Beis Din of earlier times, and is not applicable right now).
QB, I hope that’s a good thing!
oh, come on. You’ve never struggled and failed? Getting insulted/mussar -whether its right or wrong- hurts most then. Instead of comparing it to motorcycles… how abt when you know you should get up early and get ready so you won’t be rushed and stressed later, and you have an internal battle and then hit snooze. if s.o. tells you, well you shoulda got up early!, doesn’t that hurt? you know u struggled.
or a different view: OP said she tried fixing it, but failed, and went anyhow. how about if you planned on going to a wedding/parlor meeting and your ride fell through. You could technically find another way, but don’t.
You know what you’re wearing may not be topnotch for that circle, and you may even know you’ll get looks. but you go anyhow to be mesameach choson v’kallah. No one can know which was more important.
yasher koach to OP for working on your tznius, and struggling to fix it before you went. As far as i know, we all struggle and fail, and that is the learning and growing experience.
Side point: Tznius is compared to limud torah, not a man’s yetzer hora for pritzus. Compare struggling to concentrate and not get distracted or take coffee/shmooze breaks to constantly being aware of tznius. Overcoming a challenge equates to scheduling and extra hour in of learning- neither is a one time thing.
pba- +1! and for keeping your head and your cool.
Mdd: Show me a source that Halbanas Ponim doesn’t apply to someone who was Over an Aveirah once (assuming that there is a real Aveira here). And if you’ll say it’s Muttar to embarrass someone to help them do better (or shame them from making a mistake again), please tell me how making an embarrassing comment to their friend counts as that.
ok so youure modeh it was out of line…so back to my point. you knew it was out of line for that situation…so why are you so indignant at having someone call you on it? its true that the way they did it may have been wrong, but you should have expected it.
soleik- even is she knew it was out of line, it still hurts to be talked about in a negative way. And if ski was trying to work on her tznius, it was probably discouraging.
im sure…my only objection is with this thread and the complete surprise at those women’s reactions…why the surprise at their reaction?
MiddlePath, do not tell us stories about the levels which we can not understand. The bottom line is that they would kill and flog people for doing aveiros. Beis din can place curses on people even nowdays, or even flog them under certain circumstances.
SaysMe and Skiaddict, exactly. If you understood that being untzniusdic in front of men is an aveira just as eating treif is, you would have pushed yourself much harder and would not have done it.
Sam2, you are right — one time is not a heter.
“i had actually done something about it but it hadnt worked, and i was really working on it.”
sounds to me like she did try. hard. and yet, even when we try, we do fail sometimes, don’t we?
Yes a breach in tznius can affect other people too. (though we don’t know if any men saw OP-it was a woman who commented). Speaking loshon hora also affects people, and we cannot say which is the worse aveira. Can you expect ppl to always be able to stop themselves and never fall? You can hope, but if we didn’t have these struggles, and falls, what would be the purpose in life, no? (NOT trying to get into that discussion 🙂
For some ppl tznius is easy, and not they’re area of challenge. Some cannot understand the challenge even. But it is there for others! and we can’t blame them for needing to work on something. Only commend them for recognizing this struggle, and working on it!
SaysMe, one is fully expected by HKB”H to refrain from aveiros 100% of the time.
SaysMe -“Speaking loshon hora also affects people, and we cannot say which is the worse aveira. Can you expect ppl to always be able to stop themselves and never fall?”
No, people do Aveiros, but they should expect others to call them out about them. I’ve learnt the Chofetz Chaim and I can only say that the girl who told over what the lady said is Oiver the Issur of Rechilous. The lady herself, probably did nothing wrong, because the OP admits she didn’t dress Tzinus and she has a problem with Tzinus (in other words -it ain’t her first time).
So the C.C. says you can speak LH in this case!
Ok, mdd, I will not tell you stories about levels we can’t understand. I will say, however, that in our times, for the vast majority of people struggling with certain aspects of Judaism, that verbal or physical punishment is not only the wrong way of “fixing” the problem, but will most likely cause these people to stray even further from the Path. Also, I’d like to know what you think of my definition for “Diracheha Darchei Noam”, since you seem like a very knowledgeable, well-versed person, and I’d like to get an opinion on that from someone much more knowledgeable than myself. On another note, please don’t be upset with me, but I think it may be in your best interest to try to develop a softer, more pleasant attitude when discussing issues with women, especially about things they may be struggling with, if possible. Thanks!
SaysMe, I absolutely agree.
just a side point…how on earth are people supposed to know that someone is working on tznius if all they see is something thats out of line? i mean this whole thing seems to me kind of like a guy walking into a beis medrash, swearing at his chavrusa, and then wondering why people berate him even though hes working oh so hard on his lashon nekiya…(not that the two cases are exactly comparable…but you should get my point)
Skiaddict, I am not trying to act holy — just trying to impress the chiyuv to follow Halocha. The lax attitude is a big problem.
Btw, someone who did an aviera(even one) be’mezid (knowingly) is posul to be a witness until his does teshuva. Just to show you how serious it is.
ski, what’s the dif betw. Being mechallel shabbos bmeized, mechallel treif bfarhesia, or being mechallel tznius befarhesia? Any one who does any of them should be reproached.
MDD: Not true. Only a Lav Sheyeish bo Malkus is Passul someone L’eidus. Tznius is an Asei (Igros Moshe Choshem Mishpat 2:11 or 2:12 if I recall correctly) and possibly Lifnei Iveir, neither of which would be Passul someone L’eidus. And such Aveiros are only Passul someone if it was witnessed by others, not if they just did it (though that point is not so relevant here).
Ok, so the question on the floor is:
Is it lashon hara to for two people who see someone do something together, to then speak to each other derogatorily about it?
I will try to pull out the ol’ sefer chofetz chaim over shabbos, and get back to you.
Ok, so I wasn’t able to go through it as much as I’d have liked, but here is what I’m thinking: Isn’t this identical to the story of Miriam, where both miriam and aharon knew what had happened, and it was still lashon hara to talk about it it in a derogatory manner.
And is lashon hara generally anything you say which will cause someone harm, and won’t it cause someone harm if you point out to other people bad what she is doing is?
As an aside, I will tell you my funny rant about sefer chofetz chaim. It says in 4:6 that you are allowed to tell someone’s rebbi about his aveiros if that will help him, and you can even do so if the rebbi is not so careful and might tell other people about it.
So I was wondering, what kind of rebbi goes around telling lashon hara about his talmidim?
No wonder his talmidim are doing aveiros.
Because we can’t know who is working on something or not, we have the chiyuv of being dan l’kaf zchus. Its not outrageous to assume that someone is working on something, so shouldn’t we? Being dan l’kaf zchus is a bigger thing than many ppl realize…
I have also learned abt giving mussar to others. You can ask your Rav for his say, but I learned that nowadays, tochacha isn’t that simple. I was taught to only speak up if #1 there’s a realistic chance that the receiver will accept it. That means knowing them, and being close and caring. It means not speaking up if you are upset or were hurt by them. An example I recently heard was, being in a store, and someone taked something out of your cart. If you don’t care to give it up, but feel the person needs a lesson in behaviour, you shouldn’t speak up, because you were insulted.
Based on what I learned, I think for us to judge OP or make assumtions or accusations would be unfair and wrong. Whether or not the woman was allowed to speak to the friend abt the tznius (NOT abt hurting the relative), and whether or not the OP should have gone out are halachic shailos, but not for us to judge…
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The Gemara says (Arachin 16b):
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mdd:
Skiaddict, rock-throwing on Shabbos is disapproved of because under the circumstances that is not the way to deal with the problem (you are not going to fix the frei majority this way). However, it is not something which is absolutely out of the wack — it is just not good under the circumstances.
Why doesn’t this principle applies in this case as well? (Assuming what this person said was indeed muttar.)
popa: I ski with a skirt on, and I haven’t found it all that hazardous…
SAM2, lav with malkus — to be posul de’Oraisa; de’rabbonon — even for other things. My point was to bring out that to do an aveira even once is a serious matter. Get It?
Yitay, not judging at all is from the new testament!! By the, Yidden, we judge. The halochos are in the “Chofets Chaim”. The halochos of tocheicha are also there.
SaysMe, I do not do aveiros be’meizid.
OneOfMany, at the very least, Skiaddict should not be mad at that woman. Plus, I do not think everybody is so bad that all tocheicha should be abolished.
OK, what about those women who heard the two yentas speaking about NOT to the OP and then speaking about how improper it was for the original two to speak loshon horah about her? Where does it end? Were they speaking loshon horah or were they giving tochecha on loshon horah? It is very possible and it is possible that the chain continued. So the buck stops at the yentas who felt it was necessary to discuss it in the first place.
PBA -“Isn’t this identical to the story of Miriam, where both miriam and aharon knew what had happened, and it was still lashon hara to talk about it it in a derogatory manner”
No, of course not. Moshe Rabbeynu never did anything wrong. Miriam had absolutely no Heter to speak about him.
“It says in 4:6 that you are allowed to tell someone’s rebbi about his aveiros if that will help him, and you can even do so…”
You should have kept going. It says in 4:7 that you can speak LH on s/o who does like in the case of the OP -continously.
Says me -“was allowed to speak to the friend abt the tznius (NOT abt hurting the relative)”
Sorry, once a person is permittted to speak LH -what could possibly be wrong to say that the relative would be embarrassed or upset at the way she dressed? This isn’t hurting the relative directly.
PBA -“Isn’t this identical to the story of Miriam, where both miriam and aharon knew what had happened, and it was still lashon hara to talk about it it in a derogatory manner”
No, of course not. Moshe Rabbeynu never did anything wrong. Miriam had absolutely no Heter to speak about him.
I don’t think it is relevant to lashon hara whether what the person did is actually wrong, unless the action takes the person out of klal amisecha, which I don’t think is relevant here.
That answers your second point as well.
PBA -“I don’t think it is relevant to lashon hara whether what the person did is actually wrong, unless the action takes the person out of klal amisecha, which I don’t think is relevant here.”
Exactly. So go and look it up. If you’re too lazy -the CC says if a person does an Aveira B’meizid more than once -you can speak LH on him/her. And this is the case of the OP by her own admission!
Health-meant i’m not getting into the discussion of whether it was muttar or not, cuz thats a halacha q. But i’m quite sure that the ‘hurting the relative’ comment was assur.
mdd- if you never speak loshon hora or do onaas devorim or have taivos from pritzus, then yashar koach, and i’m very impressed and i’m sorry i doubted you.
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