Do I have to forgive Dov Lipman?

So, Ben Levi, what are they so upset about? Adderabba, they should follow your wise counsel. Namely, less taxes and less programs.

1. I did not blame “the frummies” but the socialist mentality of “soaking the rich” and protektzia for “our people”.This has affected both the DL and Chareidi communities, with each giving it its own kvetch.Fortunately, this is changing and both groups will also change. MK Lipman and others like him along with the drying up of contributions from abroad due to the ongoing financial crisis.are only giving a counter-push to the extremists who idealize poverty and unemployment as “keeping the camp pure”

2. The vast majority of Chareidim who work work in low-paying “Chareidi” jobs such as BY teacher, melamed, etc.

3. While the older Chareidi neighborhoods indeed have substandard apartments the newer ones, such as Ramot and Ramat Bet Shemesh, have fairly nice ones.

While Judaism isn’t about rights, there is a halachic responsibility to provide for the poor, regardless of how they became poor. The Mishnah in Peah describes a system where all Jews in a community were assessed every week and the communal authorities would distribute the collection to the poor. Rambam in Hilchot Matanot Aniyim codifies this as halachah and says that he had never heard of a community where this is not done. He also writes that anyone who refuses to contribute is flogged.

The proposed cuts of funding to the poor — both in Israel and in the US — are not consistent with Jewish teaching.

“Cuts to the child benefit affect chareidim and arabs far disproportionately, and that is what they are sold as doing.”

I agree that that is reprehensible, but it would be reprehensible to make these kinds of cuts if they didn’t affect charedim and arabs disproportionately.

“Blaming people for being poor (right or wrong) is different than de-funding welfare in a way that specifically targets minority groups.”

The Republican cuts to welfare programs are indeed targeted to have the worst impact on minorities. Only 34% of SNAP participants are white.

I hope you will join me in condemning both the Yesh Atid cuts in Israel and the Republican cuts in America. They are identical in purpose.

Charliehall, it is also to wrong to impose on a tzibur when they mind!

PBA!!?!?!!!… The cuts affect the Chareidim disproportionately because they make themselves poor disproportionately!

While Judaism isn’t about rights, there is a halachic responsibility to provide for the poor, regardless of how they became poor.

Sheker. As I quoted earlier:

?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????

Kesubos 49B

You are mechuyav to provide the ability to work at Wal Mart (which currently exists). You are NOT mechuyav to provide funds. IN fact, you are mechuyav to embarass someone into working instead of sitting (even learning) and collecting welfare from the community.

Unfortunatley my buisness is not yet big enough to be able to qualify for Federal loans to do nothing that I don’t have to pay back like Solyndra or A123 or any of the other “green jobs” my tax money and my employees tax money was used for.

🙂

For all those who think chareidim in Eretz Yisroel have made themselves “deliberately poor,” have you ever set foot in Israel? My husband and I both work multiple jobs and cannot make ends meet. We do not have a car or own an apartment or overspend on luxuries of any sort. (Unless you are calling an internet connection which we need for some of our jobs a luxury?) Do you have any idea what average salaries are here or how much we pay in taxes? Lapid/Lipman’s gezeiros include a huge cut in the child allowance, increased income taxes, extra taxes on food, including produce, and huge cuts in support for all the charedi schools and yeshivos. The government here is enacting gezeira after gezeira against the charedi community and against all lower income Israelis (which is most Israelis). I recently saw a letter a chiloni man wrote to Lapid saying how much the cut in child allowances would hurt his family. I am fine with canceling the child allowances altogether–if they can make it possible to earn a decent living wage in this country and stop taxing us to death on our income/living space/food/all basic services/etc. As it is, this is one of multiple blows raining down on us from all sides and there is nothing deserved or productive about the whole miserable package. It was also emblematic that the cuts took effect right before the chagim. Some yom tov present.

gavra_at_work: both my husband and I have master’s degrees from Ivy League US universities, and many years of work experience from the States. We work in professional environments, albeit not high tech. No, we did not serve in the army, as we made aliyah later in life. We are, however, both highly valued by our employers, however they cannot afford to pay us decent wages because that’s the nature of business in Israel. You imply that this is a problem particular to us (i.e., that we are “damaged goods” in some way) and that this is not a societal problem faced by the MAJORITY of Israelis who struggle to earn a living wage. In particular, the idea that the answer is for us to make yeridah rather than that something in the Israeli socialist economy needs to change is offensive. Should that chiloni man who wrote to Lapid also make yeridah?

GAW- i cant explain your friends’ affluence, but you are a bit uninformed about the correlation of education to higher earnings over here. the truth is, anyone getting paid a salary ie, not an entrepreneur, is grossly underpaid for the services they provide. i can tel you that one of the highest paying jobs is in fact a cleaning lady. yes, that is correct. an ozeret can make 40-50 nis an hour. i know a woman who went to school to work in a niche field of heart sonography. she went to a hospital to look for a job. they offered her 35 nis. it may be true that in america the degrees that earn (hopefully) 100k+ take several years to complete while here it can take only 2 or three, but the discrepancy in pay is staggering. a secretary here makes 25 nis. on todays rate that makes less then seven dollars an hour. i undersatnd you think this isnt true, but you are not here, and the poster above is. so am i. the fact that certain fields are saturated by chareidi women is unfortunate, but its ridiculous to imply that it is their fault for getting a degree in a field that can comply with the needs and spiritual requirements of a frum family. your point about the army is well taken. not because of why you said so, though. in israel, its all about who you know, not what you know. the guy who was in your unit may be the official you need a favor from or a permit issued by down the line. thats hardly a just reason to forc chareidim to serve. bikitzur, i dont want to be harsh, but you are just another american observing from overseas, judging a situation you are hardly immersed in.

Toi: I’ll take your word for it, as you are there. I just know what I see from those who I know that live there.

Jerusalem reader: If you “cannot make ends meet” and are borrowing without being able to pay back, then yes, you should ask a Shailah. I’m not telling you to leave EY (Chas V’Shalom), but rather that it is a question.

(The non-frum person who borrows and doesn’t pay probably doesn’t care about Halacha, and is willing to not pay (just like he is willing to eat non-Kosher)).

In particular, the idea that the answer is for us to make yeridah rather than that something in the Israeli socialist economy needs to change is offensive.

In this you, I, Lapid & Bibi all agree. Those who argue are R. Gafni, Shelly Yachimovich & Zahava Gal-On. But that would mean lower taxes and no payouts to Charaidim (and US style health insurance with no medicare/medicaid), which is not what they (or even I to a certain extent) claim to want. If they do want that, they (being you) should push to join the government with that understanding. I actually believe it would go over well.

The essential point is as follows.

When Netanyahu ran the Ministry of Finance the Israeli economy was on the verge of coplapse and there was an acknowledgment of the need to do something.

Netanyahu implemented a Conservative philisophic view of cutting taxes, cutting red tape (Change buisnesses are now legal because of him) and cutting government spending.

The Chareidim protested because of the fact that the cuts hit them very hard, the yeshivos were hit hard and the child allownace was cut to the present day pitiful levels.

However the Chareidim acknowledged that Netanyahu did not do what he did in order to effect social change nor was it to carry out punishment on yeshivos or chareidim.

Netanyahu did what he did becuase he is an MIT grad who had an economic philosophy.

And guess what it worked, when the rest of World was collapsing the Israeli economy grew and grew.

Lapid has done the opposite he’s chosen to use the failed policies of Europe raising taxes and cutting spending at the same time, however he has openly stated he hopes the majority of his cuts will be made in a way to affect 10% of the population.

Ben Levi, the Chareidim provoked the “gezeiros”.

Where does the fiction of bennet being “married to a frei woman”‘ come from? I think this is just a ruse to discredit bennett.

mdd-where are you getting that I want government handouts? This is what I wrote:

“I am fine with canceling the child allowances altogether–if they can make it possible to earn a decent living wage in this country and stop taxing us to death on our income/living space/food/all basic services/etc.”

I would prefer a straight capitalist economy. Since that is NOT what we have now (and NOT what Lapid is trying to create), these cuts are just more salt in the wounds of the working poor.

I would prefer a straight capitalist economy.

No you don’t. You are not a “Randist”. Tax money has to go somewhere, and in all truthfulness, the state is directing it towards those who support the state.

Lapid is a “populist”, following the protests of 2011. If he would join with the Charaidim, his party would (rightfully) be thrown out, as that is not what he was elected for. To a large extent, he was elected in the same way and the same reasons as the Charaidim vote: Give us money. The only difference is that this election (unlike most), he was able to deliver while the Charaidim were not.

As per the MDD/BL point, it was a tactical decision by the gedolim/askanim not to join the social justice protests, when they certainly could have done so (and it would have made sense from an economic standpoint). That decision is now coming back to bite them in the nose.

No you don’t. You are not a “Randist”. Tax money has to go somewhere

I think you miswrote that.

It sounds as if you are saying the ultimate value is the tax, and the govt distributes it because it would be too annoying to store in big vaults.

the fact that a cut disproportionally affects one minority does not make it per se discrimination, especially when the reason for the disproportionality is fully voluntary. instead of asking the internet whether you are required to forgive a government official, i would suggest heeding the calls of those who suggest taking a look at your expenses.