do I have the right?

The songs that just happen to be made up by a Jew can also be goyish.

Who cares if it was non-Jewish? The people buying it are listening to Jewish music.

Rav Matisyahu Salomon in his Sefer Matnas Chayim (the first one, I think on Mo’adim) has a long thing about non-Jewish music. You’d be shocked at how OK he says it is to turn non-Jewish music Jewish.

musicaldiginity- it warms my heart to know that there still exists ppl other than I that are really sensitive to the low ‘jewish’ music we have today. and of course you should tell others, if someone sold non kosher meat without anyone realizing u wouldnt be able to publicize it?

its really sad how everyone lost the taste for real hartzig music like carlebach. i luv listening to his songs and when i turn it on other ppl say ‘i cant stand it’ its nebach how they have such a warped taste in music. they wld rather listen to ….. im not announcing here but there are so many famous composers now that their ‘songs’ are just annoying noise

Have you any clue how many frum songs are taken and copied EXACTLY from non Jewish songs? I think for sure it is not lashon hora to repeat ones that are public knowledge to be copied. Many people think that the most high profile (besides Lippa and Country Yossi) is MBD’s Yiddin but I think the most high profile is Breslov’s famous song ‘Rabbi Nachman, Nachman m’Uman…’

My dad told me that years ago he was at a wedding where the Spinka Rebbe was attending and the band struck up with ‘Those Were The Days’ and the Rebbe was tapping the table in time to the music.

Its a hard one, seforim say that the Shaar Hanegina is a very high madreiga and music must come from a pure source.

I’m not sure the issue is the source of the music as much as the type of music. There are some very nice songs whose sources are non-Jewish (the popular tune to Maoz Tzur, for example, is from a German folk song) and some tunes which have Jewish composers, but the beat and overall musical style are directed towards and speak to the most base, animalistic parts of the human soul (nefesh hab’hami).

I would assume that what you refer to is the latter, since unfortunately that’s what is popular today, even in our Bais Yaakovs.

I think it’s wonderful that before disclosing this information you are taking into consideration the possibility that it might violate the halachos of loshon horah and hurt someone’s parnassah.

I would think that there would have to be a toeles to be muttar, and that simply telling your friends that these songs have a non-Jewish source would be pointless. They would probably listen to them anyway, and if not these, others, which are just as bad, regardless of who the composer is.

If you do have some influence over your friends, the toeles I can think of is to use the fact that they are dancing to the same music as the lowest parts of society dance to, in their clubs and at their parties, to demonstrate how low we have fallen (at least in regard to our musical tastes).

A teacher who has the genuine respect of your classmates might have a better chance of presenting this argument in an appealing way which could have a positive influence.

Hatzlocha.

You’d have to publicize that fact for about 80% of all Jewish music. There is absolutely no chet involved in using secular melodies for Jewish music, with the exception of recognizable Gentile religeous tunes like, for instance, “Silent Night”. Chill!

P.S. I’m sure that some (Health, for instance) will strongly disagree with me. They will be wrong.

In my opinion, if the parts to those songs are now in a Jewish context, then there is no problem.

If you think about it, how much of music is truly only touched only by Judaism? Even the notes of the scale; unless discovered by a Jew, can we say C, D, E, F, G, A, and B are “treif”?

If music was used to entertain idolatrous kings, then should we listen at all?

Suppose the first musical instrument was created and played by a pagan for some sort of worship? Do we not touch musical instruments unless they were invented by a Jew?

I also understand there are tunes we use in davening that did not spring, 100%, from the Jewish well of culture.

If the entire CD is now in a Jewish context, then musicians and song writers are using parts of the song for music only.

Your concern is valid and thought provoking and does not end with music. It carries on to clothing (should we not be wearing robes since the suit was not invented by a Jew, perhaps?, household items (I think it is worth investigating which companies were involved in the holocaust, and these things are known, but how many Jews own things from autos to coffee makers to countless other things which originate not only from the gentile world, but from antisemites).

Please explain what “Goyish” means in this case.

Do you mean music written by a non-Jew? If so, tell go to Uman and complain to the Rebbe Rabbi Nachman. While you’re there go to Lezhensk. Oh, and skip Maoz Tzur next Channuka too.

Lyrics written by non-Jew(I doubt that since most Jewish music today doesn’t actually have verses)? So? There are poems in Tanach written by non-Jews — at least one comes to mind.

Do you mean that they took a passuk and stuck it to a tune that doesn’t fit it at all? If the latter, that’s not “goyish” it’s just annoying.

popa: Not Antarctica. There are sometimes Jewish researchers there.

If anyone is an honest observer (not sure how many read this forum) you will notice that whenever the Jewish songs that were taken from non Jewish songs are played (talking about recent songs taken from a certain low life immoral woman in the non Jewish music business) there’s a certain very prust and very wild energy that takes over the dancing. Im not making this up you can see and sense a certain coarseness and prikas ol when the songs are played and the people dance. People act differently by these songs. Watch for it and you will see what I mean.

I don’t have to ask a shaila because for me its apparent that there is something wrong with this music and it doesn’t bring out anything good in people.

I can’t speak about slow songs because maybe some of them have some depth, but their fast songs have no place by us and I don’t believe they brought anyone closer to Hashem. These songs are produced to make you dance wild and be crazy they were never intended for Jewish people we have a different purpose in life and we listen to music for a different reason and we dance for a different reason.

In my opinion it is very wrong to take these songs and make them “Jewish” and the singers who do it are doing something wrong. However they won’t stop because they don’t respect Gedolim and they do their own thing. The music business is not run al pi Torah. Hence groups that perform on TV and goyish songs on cd’s and music videos with girls in them and mixed seating concerts and whatever else that goes on in the music business.

“There is no specific issur of listening to “non-jewish music.” And I’m not sure why you think that particular tune has some issur attached to it. Or inappropriateness. “

It is inappropriate. It has nothing to do with who writes the song, it’s the song. And most of their songs today are blatantly expressing utter pritzus. Transforming a song that promotes such things is wrong. There doesn’t have to be an issur on it for it to be wrong. Write your own music.

It’s a sensitivity which it sounds like musicaldignity possesses (and you don’t). It’s just another form of assimilation.

we have this discussion every few months, can someone please post links to threads where this issue has already been dealt with?

It is inappropriate. It has nothing to do with who writes the song, it’s the song. And most of their songs today are blatantly expressing utter pritzus. Transforming a song that promotes such things is wrong. There doesn’t have to be an issur on it for it to be wrong. Write your own music.

It’s a sensitivity which it sounds like musicaldignity possesses (and you don’t). It’s just another form of assimilation.

Well said.

If you want to be really frum you can look at Rav Moshe who says Meikar Hadin we shouldnt really have ANY music nowadays except for at a real simcha like a wedding. obviously most people (including myself) do not follow that, however the point is you shouldnt stop people from listening to this type of music especially since its much better than actually listening to the real song.

There’s a Frum girls Drama program in a major city in U.S.A. that takes place during the year on Sundays (lots of Bais Yaakov type girls). They practice a whole year and perform in June. The Drama Head choses Broadway musicals and gears the whole script to a Jewish theme….Like “the Sound of Music” is called the “Sound of Torah” and the musical “Annie” is called “Chanie” and so on. These are enjoyable performances infused with Yiddishe themes sung to original music of the Broadway show. The Lyrics are adjusted to match the Jewish storyline. On performance day the Giant Auditorium is packed to capacity with Frum Mothers and Daughters from all walks of life and everyone enjoys the show. Here is a situation where you take something unholy and turn it into holy. It seems that there’s a one-upmanship on who could be frummer than the other…Between all the bans going on and people scrutinizing how frum one should or could be…it will only bring about Sinas Chinom when we surely need more AHAVAS YISROEL going on!

musicaldignity: the reason the song you were listening to didn’t “sound” Jewish is because there weren’t any trumpets playing (p. s. this is my personal theory).

popcorn

Very poor comparison. The Jewish music of today is taking songs from the lowest of the low of non Jewish music and is taking very aggressive wild types of songs (besides for the nicer ones which is a separate question entirely) the fast songs are prust, were written with low intentions in mind with all kinds of inappropriate dance moves and all that. There is no way to make that holy. Even if there were, which I sincerely doubt, it would take a Tzaddik to do. Maybe have Rav Kanievsky do it, not the “holy” people of todays music industry.

Ok. Popa’s back.

So far the argument being made is that these songs somehow have a bad effect on you, because they are rooted in pritzus, or I don’t know what.

Now, we can easily say that that is unrelated to whether it is originally “non-jewish.” For example, I don’t imagine you would say that about all songs composed by people who aren’t jewish (aren’t frum?).

Is it:

Choice A- the tune? Well, that should apply to many songs written by frum composers.

Choice B- the original words? Interesting theory. Is that only a problem if you know the original words? (What if the original was chassidishe, but then someone made prust words?)

Choice C- the composer? That is just bizarre.

In any event, all these problems don’t seem to have anything to do with “non-jewish;” rather with the specifics of the songs or specific composer.

So, you would really need to know which of the three choices was the problem, and then how it applied to that song.

It is inappropriate. It has nothing to do with who writes the song, it’s the song. And most of their songs today are blatantly expressing utter pritzus. Transforming a song that promotes such things is wrong. There doesn’t have to be an issur on it for it to be wrong. Write your own music.

It’s a sensitivity which it sounds like musicaldignity possesses (and you don’t). It’s just another form of assimilation.

I suppose I can’t respond to that. You have said it isn’t any of the possibilities, but that it is wrong anyway, and that I apparently don’t have the sensitivity.

Well, not every sensitivity you have is correct. Sometimes it is just shtus.

So the music is non-Jewish – so what? By taking that tune and turning it into a Jewish-themed and inspired song, that music has been elevated.

Cinderella, I hope you know you name comes from a NON-JEWISH Grimms Fairy Tale called Cinderella

The Grimms have lots of other Fairly tales some well known like Snow White and the Sever Dwarfs and some not so well known INCLUDING an ANTI-SEMITIC one called The Jew Among Thorns.

Oomis1105

In theory it sounds good but in practice it doesn’t usually work. I would think that for one to be able to do this one would have to be holy in the first place. Like a Rebbe or Gadol.

The songs that are being “elevated” are songs by women. Can you explain yo me how it came to be that these Jewish so called frum composers heard these songs in the first place to then be able to make it “elevated” and Jewish?

It seems clear to me that people in the Jewish music world are listening to non Jewish music kol isha and all the other filth that you hear by listening to non Jewish music. These people have polluted their neshamos and lost their sensitivity for what is fine decent and holy they are in NO position to “elevate” any of these songs. You have to be elevated to elevate. Most people in the Jewish music scene are not elevated people. The few who are surprisingly never use non Jewish songs. I wonder why.

…what Popa said… but I agree he could have said it a bit more nicely.

Me too thinks he could have said it more nicely.

Actually most of the Fairy Tales are dark with people dying, stealing bad peopel, People starving etc.

They were written in a differnet time when life was darker in general and tough and the fairy tales reflected that.

Most of the Grimms Fairy tales are very dark, other than the famous ones even Snow White has a witch who wants to kill her.

Do you know the kids game “Ring Around the Rosey”?

Did you know the game is actually about the Bubonic Plague?

Ring Around the Rosey is a dark ring you get when you get the plague.

A posey was thought to be a cure of the plague

And Ashes Ashes we all fall down, means you die.

The songs that are being “elevated” are songs by women. Can you explain yo me how it came to be that these Jewish so called frum composers heard these songs in the first place to then be able to make it “elevated” and Jewish?

It seems clear to me that people in the Jewish music world are listening to non Jewish music kol isha and all the other filth that you hear by listening to non Jewish music. These people have polluted their neshamos and lost their sensitivity for what is fine decent and holy they are in NO position to “elevate” any of these songs. You have to be elevated to elevate. Most people in the Jewish music scene are not elevated people. The few who are surprisingly never use non Jewish songs. I wonder why.

Interesting. First, let us compare this to your previous statement:

you will notice that whenever the Jewish songs that were taken from non Jewish songs are played (talking about recent songs taken from a certain low life immoral woman in the non Jewish music business) there’s a certain very prust and very wild energy that takes over the dancing.

and:

the fast songs are prust, were written with low intentions in mind with all kinds of inappropriate dance moves and all that.

Seems to me, that either you have listened to the songs yourself, or else you have been mekabel lashon hara about the jewish singers.

In any event, I cannot concur with your presumption that all the Jewish singers must have listened to those songs. Likely, for at least some of the Jewish singers, someone else told them about it, and got them sheet music or something.

In any event, I don’t really think it is relevant whether they Jewish singers listened to it. I don’t agree with the premise that just because they listened to a prust song, that nothing holy can come from these jewish singers.

Moreover, I retract my agreement that I could have said it nicer. I was accused of having assimilated, and I responded to that perfectly appropriately.