Home › Forums › Employment & Business Issues › Divorced woman – head covering
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September 23, 2011 2:27 am at 2:27 am #599574JUST.MEMember
This is a question that I have been asked and would love to get all of your opinions / thoughts about it.
“If you were divorced (have children) and your potential boss asked you to cover up your hair (if you were to work there), would you?”
A few points but feel free to add as many points as you wish.
1. Is it legally permitted for a boss to say this?
2. Uncovering the hair for a divorced woman (with children) is it so simple to say that she can uncover?
September 23, 2011 2:32 am at 2:32 am #812286PeacemakerMemberA woman who was married must always keep her hair covered when in public, even if she is divorced.
September 23, 2011 2:52 am at 2:52 am #812287Sam2ParticipantPeacemaker: That is generally assumed to be true, but there are Matirim, especially if she is looking to date again.
September 23, 2011 4:10 am at 4:10 am #812288aries2756ParticipantSam, once again you are right on the money. You can’t make general rules here. Each woman does what her own Rav paskens for her.
As far as a boss legally permitted to say it, a boss can ask whatever they want, demanding it or making it part of the dress code, no I don’t believe he has the right to do so. Could he demand that of a non-jew taking the same position? No, not unless it was a safety issue. He could have a dress code which would require a woman to dress in a modest fashion covering their chest, arms and legs as long as he provided enough air conditioning and temperature control to be comfortable to accommodate that dress code. But to require head covering, no that would not fly.
September 23, 2011 4:56 am at 4:56 am #812289real-briskerMemberPM – I just realized that you have the same roshei teivos as P/M , PM and P-M.
September 23, 2011 11:56 am at 11:56 am #812290Feif UnParticipantPeacemaker, as Sam2 said, there are heteirim out there. R’ Moshe Feinstein zt”l said that a widow can uncover her hair if it will help her to remarry (Igros Moshe, E.H. 1:57)
September 23, 2011 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #812291shmoelMemberThat Igros Moshe places heavy restrictions on that heter. Including that it can only be uncovered while she is on a date, plus she must immediately inform her date she is divorced, etc.
September 23, 2011 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #812292gavra_at_workParticipant1. Is it legally permitted for a boss to say this?
Absolutely not. He also can’t legally make you cover your hair when married, unless it is a dress code rule (which unless men do it as well, it would be sexual discrimination).
2. Uncovering the hair for a divorced woman (with children) is it so simple to say that she can uncover
No, but Hetairim (and good ones) exist, as others have pointed out. Ask your LOR.
September 23, 2011 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #812293shmoelMemberEven if the woman’s rabbi gives her a heter (which seemingly is only applicable while on a date in any event), the employers rov may not hold of such a heteirim and he is forbidden from seeing her with uncovered hair.
September 23, 2011 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #812294gavra_at_workParticipantEven if the woman’s rabbi gives her a heter (which seemingly is only applicable while on a date in any event), the employers rov may not hold of such a heteirim and he is forbidden from seeing her with uncovered hair.
OK. And? (seems to be a theme today). It’s still illegal, and still Mutar for her (the two questions asked by the OP). Maybe to be nice she can do so if she wants, but by asking, the boss opens himself to a discrimination lawsuit.
September 23, 2011 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #812295PeacemakerMemberOK. And?
There is a conflict then between halacha and secular law (assuming your legal assertion is correct.)
What do you do in such a situation? Break halacha or break secular law, if it comes down to one or the other.
September 23, 2011 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #812296gavra_at_workParticipantWhat do you do in such a situation? Break halacha or break secular law, if it comes down to one or the other.
We are assuming she has a heter to uncover her own hair, and is not breaking halacha by doing so.
September 23, 2011 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #812297PeacemakerMemberBut he has no heter to see her hair. It is still assur for him.
September 23, 2011 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #812298yaakov doeParticipantMy understanding that such heterim are not given to divorced women with children, only those without.
September 23, 2011 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #812299gavra_at_workParticipantBut he has no heter to see her hair. It is still assur for him.
And? I’m not sure why that should affect her.
September 23, 2011 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #812300Sam2ParticipantIf she has a Heter to do so, why is she obligated to adhere to his Chumra? If someone holds that woman need to cover until their ankles, does that mean that every woman who goes past him has to wear ankle-length skirts? Or does that mean that she can cover her knees like she holds and that if he has a Chumra he has to find his own ways to meet it?
September 23, 2011 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #812301PeacemakerMemberAnd? I’m not sure why that should affect her.
It affects his ability to hire her or allow her into the office with her hair uncovered. Since it is assur for him to see her hair, he can’t allow her into his office as such.
September 23, 2011 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #812302PeacemakerMemberSam: It isn’t a chumra. It is the normative halacha that her hair should be covered. Her uncovering it is, at best, a heter from normative halacha. (And according above, when Rav Moshe gave someone such a personal heter, he only allowed it while she was on a date. Not when she went to work.)
September 23, 2011 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #812303Sam2ParticipantPM: Granted. The fact is that she has a legitimate Heter (assuming she does) and does absolutely nothing wrong by keeping her hair uncovered. Why should she be forced to do something that she may find uncomfortable or embarrassing to satisfy what, to her at least, is someone else’s Chumra?
September 23, 2011 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #812304gavra_at_workParticipantIt affects his ability to hire her or allow her into the office with her hair uncovered. Since it is assur for him to see her hair, he can’t allow her into his office as such.
We are assuming she is already hired. He is allowed to fire her (of course), but will also lose a discrimination lawsuit. However, that has nothing to do with HER chiyuvim.
I think we agree here.
September 23, 2011 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #812305PeacemakerMembergavra and Sam: The OP wrote “potential boss”, so apparently she was not yet hired. And if she was, we go back to my original point of him being forced to choose between breaking halacha (since he can’t see her hair) or breaking secular law.
September 23, 2011 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #812306Sam2ParticipantIs he breaking Halacha if she has a legitimate Heter? I am not positive about that.
September 23, 2011 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #812307gavra_at_workParticipantgavra and Sam: The OP wrote “potential boss”, so apparently she was not yet hired. And if she was, we go back to my original point of him being forced to choose between breaking halacha (since he can’t see her hair) or breaking secular law.
I didn’t see that. I agree with you, but just point out that he will possibly have a losing discrimination lawsuit (just like if he would not hire a non-jew for the same reason). He should ask his own LOR what to do in this case.
September 23, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #812308PeacemakerMemberSam: The heter is very very far from universally being accepted. So if his posek doesn’t accept it, and as far as he is concerned it is unacceptable, he can’t rely on such a heter.
September 23, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #812309Sam2ParticipantPM: Chas Veshalom. Just because your Posek does not accept a Heter or you would not do it yourself does not mean that as far as you are concerned the Heter doesn’t exist. You can’t use it; as long as it’s legitimate it still exists.
And I meant that it’s possible there are reasons to be more Meikil on hair than anything else with Tznius. See the Shulchan Aruch (don’t have the precise Siman in front of me, somewhere in that 75-80 section).
September 23, 2011 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #812310PeacemakerMemberSam: Hypothetically, if some posek somewhere issued a heter to wear a miniskirt (for arguments sake), you would be permitted to see that person?
September 23, 2011 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #812311PeacemakerMemberAlso, the point that Rav Moshe’s heter only applied when she is going out on a date — not when she is going to the office — is being glossed over.
September 23, 2011 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #812312Sam2ParticipantPM: There are other Heterim used that are more Meikil than R’ Moshe’s. To answer your question, if hypothetically a woman got a legitimate Heter to wear a miniskirt in public, then, while I would not personally look at her, I would have no right whatsoever to try and force her to wear longer skirts.
Even better: what if the boss finds himself attracted to a woman? She is perfectly Tznius and follows Halacha to the letter (or past). Is it her fault? Should he fire her or realize that since this problem stems from him he has to find a way to fix it without affecting her?
September 23, 2011 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #812313PeacemakerMemberI would not personally look at her
Sam: So you admit my point. You said you would not look at her. If she wanted to work for you, you couldn’t hire her without looking at her.
September 25, 2011 12:59 am at 12:59 am #812314dvorakMemberPeacemaker- you are incorrect in that he is not allowed to see her hair at all. If we were to hold that it should be covered (which is generally the psak, but as others have pointed out, heteirim exist), then at worst, he has a problem with saying a bracha in front of her, a problem which could be easily remedied by one of them leaving the room if he has to make a bracha. There are lots of Jewish married women walking around with uncovered hair; if simply seeing it was assur, no one would ever be allowed outside. The issur is in saying a bracha in front of a bare-headed married woman, and even then, not everyone agrees that it’s a problem.
September 25, 2011 1:20 am at 1:20 am #812315welldressed007Participantwow, so many poskim with intimate lack of knowledge regarding this matter, Asai lecho Rov!!!!
not a matter for debate in a public forum
September 25, 2011 1:40 am at 1:40 am #812316shmoelMemberMen aren’t allowed to see a married woman’s hair bchlal. The restriction isn’t only during brochos.
September 25, 2011 2:15 am at 2:15 am #812317Josh31ParticipantJoseph, (or perhaps mosherose), based upon this men would be obligated to avoid walking the streets as much as possible.
If there are two shuls a man can go to on Shabbos, he would be obligated to go to the closer one.
September 25, 2011 2:38 am at 2:38 am #812318Sam2ParticipantJosh: It’s a Mefurash Gemara that you should go to the farther one.
Shmoel: I’m gonna make a stupid request, because the proper answer should be it’s common sense. But do you have a source?
September 25, 2011 2:49 am at 2:49 am #812319shmoelMemberLet me lookup the source, but in the meantime a point to ponder is that it is permitted to walk on the street when necessary even though there are obviously totally untznius women on the street. That point does not make it permissible to look at the untznius women.
September 25, 2011 2:59 am at 2:59 am #812320Sam2ParticipantAnd the fact that it’s not permissible to look at them doesn’t stop us from walking in the street. Why would having her in the office be any different? Especially if she’s not a secretary or someone that he would have to interact with on an overly-consistent basis.
September 25, 2011 3:04 am at 3:04 am #812321shmoelMemberYou still must minimize to the extent possible your encounters with untznius women.
September 25, 2011 3:14 am at 3:14 am #812322Sam2ParticipantWe are missing a whole point here, by the way. There is more than enough reason to say that we don’t consider women’s hair the same level of un-Tznius as anything else, namely from the fact that unmarried girls leave their hair uncovered. I would honestly be surprised if no one says that the Halacha by hair (as long as you don’t have Kavanah for Hana’ah, obviously) is a special Din by Devarim Shebikdusha and would not apply in everyday interaction. Why would he be perfectly allowed to see the (never-married) girl next to her’s hair but not the divorcee’s?
September 25, 2011 3:28 am at 3:28 am #812323shmoelMemberBecause one is erva and one isn’t.
September 25, 2011 4:05 am at 4:05 am #812324PeacemakerMemberWe see already in the time of Moshe Rabbeinu women covered their hair and men weren’t allowed to see it, from the story of Ohn ben Peles’ wife scaring away Korach’s men with her hair, since she knew men aren’t allowed to see her hair.
September 25, 2011 4:36 am at 4:36 am #812325Sam2ParticipantShmoel: Why is Ervah Assur? Because it’s attractive. Does it make any sense to say that some hair is attractive and some isn’t? The issue with married women and hair is that because it’s usually covered, it’s an Ervah when it’s uncovered. If this woman’s hair is now normally uncovered then it probably isn’t an Ervah and certainly shouldn’t be inherently attractive to him.
September 25, 2011 4:42 am at 4:42 am #812326Josh31Participant“it is permitted to walk on the street when necessary”
What defines necessary?
Is going an extra block to another shul really necessary?
September 25, 2011 6:21 am at 6:21 am #812327aries2756ParticipantThe solution is very simple. The potential boss need not look at her. As a matter of fact, if he were truly Frum he should NOT be looking at her in the first place so there would not be a problem at all.
September 25, 2011 6:33 am at 6:33 am #812328JUST.MEMemberThe gemara is in Bava Basra 57b. It talks about walking by the river banks where the girls used to wash clothing with there arms (i think) uncovered.
I am not sure what the answer is, but if there is a psak for a certain woman that she can have her hair uncovered, isnt that a complete psak which would permit others to see her hair? Just like a single girl doesnt have to cover her hair, same too anyone that has a heter?
I did mention things and every thing was on purpose. the “potential boss” and the “with children”.
From what I know, attractiveness has nothing to do with this. i know of many girls that were not attractive before they got married (hair wise) and then bought these very attractive looking wigs. But when the Halacha says that something is Assur, usually its across the board.
Regarding the potential boss, he can have a dress code for woman (i.e. not wearing mini or over exposed clothing) and usually that wont apply to men, so why is requiring head covering for those woman that are halachically required to wear be different?
September 25, 2011 6:50 am at 6:50 am #812330PeacemakerMemberaries: Which is exactly why he can’t hire her.
just.me: And the men are forewarned in that exact gemorah to avoid seeing those women.
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