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Im trying to learn from the publics mistake, so i do not repeat that mistake. I am a male single ( early 20s) looking to get married. I want to know from the divorced world if there were any mistakes ( that they made ) that triggered there divorce and/or what mistakes did they while dating there EX that would of prevent the marriage all together
thank you
p.s. if i was not clear please fee free to askboruch Hashem i am married & have a wonderful family.
Tip to prevent a divorce include:
1)Listen listen, & listen to your spouse while s/he talks without disturbing. you can talk when your spouse is finished.
2)make your family your #1 priority at all prices even if it will cost you your job.
3) after you get married IY”H B’karov, have a date night every week to go out together just the 2 of you.Many more tips but too much to write
Hatzlacha
jakob:
One clarification is critical. Make your family – that refers to your spouse and your children. It does not refer to your parents and siblings. In fact, it is so vital that one make every effort to consider the in-law family equal that I would spell that out as a measure to prevent divorce. Anyone hearing their spouse value only their own family is apt to feel distanced, and there can be an early split that can doom the marriage.
There is no prevention other than just being a mentch
Unfortunately there is no “perfect” prevention. Unforeseen events will have impacts that cannot be predicted during the dating (“shidduch”) process. The best advise is to daven, daven, daven.
Consider the term divorce to be a four letter word that nobody is allowed to even mouth or say in your house and marriage.
And remember (in the back of your mind) that divorce is usually worse than a problematic marriage.
Make sure you get a good chosson shmooze
Meno, what aspects make a chosson shmooze good (or not so good)?
A good chosson shmooze is one that prevents divorces.
“divorce is USUALLY worse than a problematic marriage”
For a change, Joe has a valid point with the noted caveat. For many years, women in really bad and borderline abusive relationships “held on” for the sake of the kids or in prior generations, simply because of the lack of an economically viable alternative. B”h today, women have both the economic option of leaving an abusive relationship and support from their rabbonim and local mosdos if that is their choice. Clearly, tyring to work through a “problematic” relationship is preferable but if that is a code word for abuse, than leaving is without a doubt the right path.
Have a rav, rebbe or mentor to discuss your differences.
What’s a chosson shmooze?
A classic Shmuz or Chadian classes is when a classic teacher or rabbi teaches a backup who is engaged about obtain relating to marriage. Both Halachah and hashkafah.
Another point both spouses need to keep in mind is that just as getting married halachicly requires the consent of both parties — one person cannot marry another against their will (except in rare circumstances) — similarly, getting divorced requires the consent of both parties. One spouse cannot impose or force a divorce against the other spouse’s will, as halachicly divorce can only be done with the consent of both parties (except in rare circumstances).
It the large percentage of cases, both parties work to find ways to make a bad marriage “better” and try to avoid divorce. When after counseling, there are still serious issues, especially in cases of emotional or physical abuse (most often from the husband but also can go in the other direction) a get will be necessary. Fortunately, there are options available today to limit the extent to which either side in a divorce can withhold consent to extort economic gains or to limit access to the children. We are very fortunate that most beis dins have become very aggressive in assuring that the rights of both sides in the divorce are protecting and using a variety of means to discourage extortion by withholding a get.
GH:
Go back to sleep. Your comment is pure fantasy. In reality, the beis din side of gittin is ugly. No one goes to BD to settle matters amicably. They go to fight. The only question is how vicious the battles are. Instead of expressing these nice ideals, speak to people who have hashed matters out in BD. Ask toanim how’s business. The reality is alarmingly different. When the OP inquires about how to prevent divorce, it is a serious question. How does one avoid or prevent a personal holocaust. I do not use these words lightly.
In reality, men withhold gittin and women withhold children. Each one uses their best weapon. But it is war. The false accusations of infidelity, domestic violence, child abuse, etc. are everyday occurrences. There are prevailing myths that these are mostly men committing these atrocities. In reality, the responsibility is balanced at close to 50-50. There are about as many evil men withholding gittin and support as there are evil women not allowing children to see their father, or having him arrested for crimes that were never committed.
There are mediators in the frum community who are passionate about resolving the matters in dispute to enable the couple to proceed peacefully to a beis din. Their failure rate is high, as one or both sides is bloodthirsty and will simply not compromise on anything. Those couples that succeed in resolving matters amicably (yes, there are plenty) rarely use professional mediators. These mediation experts have experience and are good, well meaning people. The fault lies with the pained individuals, whose love has turned to hate, and are bent on revenge and causing as much trouble for the other.
Beis Din has a mammoth task, to force the two sides to accept a psak, and comply with it. Even after a psak is given, compliance is a serious problem, and this often involves the only recourse, one which is universally dreaded – going to secular court.
You are asking what to look out for when dating. It comes before dating. You or your parents have to make numerous enquiries to find out if the girl has yiras Shomayim and midos toivos. Then if you have those 2 also, you will have a successful marriage. You must give and give. Have no expectations.
Just a sec-So are you saying that it is realistic when making inquiries about a potential shidach that the response might actually be “come to think of it this boy/girl does not really have yiras shomayim and their midos are lousy”. Have you ever received such a response? And if you did would you have permission (or the daas) to believe it?
You must get opinions from many different sources. Teachers or ex teachers, friends,(you can tell alot by the type of friends) neighbours, aquaintances, classmates, job mates, etc. A definate picture will emerge.
A classic Shmuz or Chadian classes is when a classic teacher or rabbi teaches a backup who is engaged about obtain relating to marriage.
I thought I knew what a chosson shmooze was. Now I’m not so sure.
To Little I KNow
You paint a considerably more dire picture of dealing with a BD on matters of gittin….based on my personal experience with friends and family, the issues you cite are real but every get is not a yiddeshe version of the “War of the Roses”…a good beis din is frequently able to defuse some of the vitriol and force both side to accept a settlement that is to the liking of neither. The perception that most beis dins are biased in favor of the husband was true for many years but B’h is no longer the norm, but the execption.justasec: You wrote: “Then if you have those 2 also, you will have a successful marriage.”
I am sorry but middos tovos and yiras shamayim are not the only 2 ingredients to make a successful marriage. The most important 2? Probably but not the only 2.
Use a Get Mekushar.
The perception that most beis dins are biased in favor of the husband was true for many years but B’h is no longer the norm, but the execption.
Hilchos Gittin is “biased” in favor of the husband (based on contemporary definitions of bias.) If the Beis Din isn’t, then the B”D isn’t following Halacha.
GH and Joseph:
Bias from batei din is a reality. I cannot speak to the reduction of this. But experience indicates that it is live and well, and may depend on many circumstances. What may be correct is that a broad brush assessment of this may be less than accurate. And the same BD that has a reputation for being biased towards men may adopt the opposite perspective in a specific case. I have observed this a number of times.
Hilchos Gittin is not biased at all. There are specific roles that are designated for each gender. These are not biased. The halachic discussions on the brocho of שלא עשני אשה are complex, but do not suggest that men are “better” than women. Each gender has its strengths and weakness. In the infinite Divine Wisdom, HKB”H wanted marriage between these two different species of humanity so they would together comprise a complete neshomoh. Each one without the other is incomplete. neither is better or worse. The husband that is required to give the get is not better or stronger. The wife must be agreeable to it (as per Rabbenu Gershom), and this is normative accepted halacha. Each has their own contribution to the process. That is not bias. Is a right handed person inherently biased because he cannot write or throw a baseball with his left hand?
TLIK, in the modern thought process the exclusive authority of the husband in the default case, barring unusual extenuating circumstances, under Hilchos Gittin to decide whether or not to get divorced, to take one example from Hilchos Gittin, is considered discriminatory and biased by Orthodox subscribers of modern Western philosophy.
When you’re done with the modern thought process and subscribers of modern western philosophy, we can address our views of reality. A husband must willingly give a get. With few and rare exceptions, the wife must willingly receive the get. That is the nature of it, just like the process of conception involves each gender contributing what it is created to do. The bias issue enters when the terms of the termination are being set. The agreement must include division of assets, the co-parenting of children with the financial support issues, the legal status of the parents’ custody, etc. Yes, the batei din are apt to take sides, and many differing reputations exist. It is often that this division of assets involves complexity, so the drive in beis din for the get becomes the exception, not the rule. The common pattern of volleying accusations is typical, and dayanim are accustomed to this. However, they are human, and can easily be swayed to one side. And certain BD’s have a tendency to sway in one direction.
Where the unfairness enters the picture is not in the ritual of the get, but in the way the respective (usually not respectable) parties deal with the children and money. Each uses their plus as a weapon against the other, and this impedes the process of ending the marriage and allowing the two to go their separate ways. The only creatures that benefit from this are what we might call the “get industry”. This includes toanim, lawyers, batei din, and sometimes the frustrated mediators.
It’s 2 questions. Before marriage and after.
Before marriage you should use your rov/madrich to guide you.
After marriage you should continue with the same.One golden rule: make sure you both get enough sleep. Problems happen when you can’t think properly.
Why is the division of assets so difficult? Hilchos Gittin is clear how to go about it. Any assets either spouse brought in from before marriage remains with that spouse. Any assets generated during the course of the marriage remain with the husband.
The custody issue is more complicated. But Hilchos Gittin addresses that question as well. Some of the determining factors are the age of the children, whether they are nursing, their gender, etc. It, too, must be settled in accordance with Hilchos Gittin.
So we just deduced that there is no issue of Gittin, bias, bullying, and fights.
With some more great logic we can out-reason Shidduchim, poverty, ignorance, disease, and perhaps aging.
gotrump,
has anyone, that went through a DIVORCE tell me major mistakes on his/her end.
Somehow I don’t see a host of volunteers lining up for that.
If your true goal is to learn skills that are important for a healthy and happy marriage, why don’t you ask people blessed with healthy and happy marriages what they do?
Make sure you read a wonderful book the Garden of peace by rabbi Arush.. Awesome
Somehow I don’t see a host of volunteers lining up for that.
If your true goal is to learn skills that are important for a healthy and happy marriage, why don’t you ask people blessed with healthy and happy marriages what they do?
Avram, why not start by volunteering how you maintain a healthy and happy marriage.
Joe’s trolling on the halacha governing gitten indirectly provide an inyan of mussar that warrants repetition: No person, man or woman, ever wants to feel “powerless’ in any relationship. We can intellectually understand the spiritual concepts that the Ebeshter created men and women with different strengths and roles which in turn have been translated by chazal into different “rights” and “obligations”. However, as real people, we also have our own perceived need for personal empowerment and respect. When one partner in a marriage asserts “dominance” over the other through flaunting of their “rights” under halacha, that is toxic for a relationship, even if accurate from the perspective of someone who can readily quote daf/amud from maseches gitten.
Joseph:
Sorry, but my experience guides me to make observations about what is occurring, you know, reality. Division of assets is not so simple, and batei din do not dismiss matters with the slight of hand that you imply. No two cases are the same, and generalizing leads to mistakes. I could give you several examples, and if you want them, I’ll jot them down.
Custody is complicated, as you note. But Hilchos Gittin does not address a lot of it. Let’s examine this. Shulchan Aruch (Even Ho’ezer 71) speaks about child support. It states that this ends when the male child is 6 years old. However, the Rema specifies that this is culturally determined, and that chachomim of the generation establish the norms for this. Today, this varies between 18-21. Tuition expenses for boys are completely the father’s responsibility, and there is no reference that caps an age limit. I do not recall a reference in Shulchan Aruch regarding visitation, yet it is normative halacha to set a schedule for this. A major complicating factor is that batei din do not have legal authority to pasken matters related to custody, and in many states, they have no input on child support either. I don’t know whether it is the letter or the spirit of the law, but batei din seek to comply with the legal authority they have. That is why they try hard to make their psak halacha based on an agreement, which can sometimes be more binding that the arbitration decision from a BD.
So nothing is simple. Hilchos Gittin includes a great deal of vagueness with regards to “halacha lema’aseh. Engaging in the process of determining what is the best settlement requires skill, patience, and the ability to balance many issues, halacha among them.
Let’s give an example. Batei din and rabbonim often permit a side in a marital dispute to take the matter to secular court (I am not addressing those who go without a heter). There can be a number of reasons for this. Not everyone complies with psak beis din. Not every matter belongs in BD either. We can blindly jump up in protest, “How dare you go to court!” But that is infantile if the facts are not known. I say the same about your dismissal of the complexity in divorce cases, based on Hilchos Gittin.
TLIK, the only time division of assets becomes complicated is when Halacha is deviated from. Halachic division of marital assets is not overly complicated. Secular non-Jewish law (which we aren’t permitted to utilize as a replacement from Halacha) is certainly very complicated on this matter.
But please do share the several real life examples that you offered to do.
I don’t agree that child support today goes until 18-21. Why 18-21? Because, coincidentally, those are the ages the goyim set in their law and courts? It has nothing to do with us. You write that there’s no halachic age cap on a father’s obligation to pay his son’s tuition. Does that mean a son can demand his father pay his Yeshiva tuition at age 28? If not, why is age 22 or 19 any different? And the father surely isn’t responsible to pay his tuition for general secular studies (not to mention college.) And what about a daughter’s tuition?
In regards to States that don’t offer legal authority to butei dinim (or arbitration panels) to settle certain areas of divorce, the Beis Din can nevertheless issue a decision on those areas and then demand the couple advise the secular court that that decision is their “agreed” upon settlement. If one party doesn’t adhere to that, the Beis Din can then find him/her in contempt of Beis Din and apply the associated halachic consequences of such (that butei dinim in fact do apply to various situations when a litigant defies Beis Din.)
The best way to prevent divorce is to not get married.
Somehow I don’t see a host of volunteers lining up for that.
Yup. Because they weren’t in the wrong. The question has to be ,”What mistakes did your ex make?”
IMHO, divorce can also happen without “major mistakes”. A person can develop a mental illness (e.g. depression) or physical illness and even with therapy the spouse has a hard time dealing with it.
iac: What gives anyone the right to divorce their spouse because the spouse developed a physical or mental illness during the course of the marriage?
In Judaism divorce needs to be halachicly justifiable or the spouse not desiring the divorce can veto the divorce request and insist the marriage continue.
joseph: The right to divorce? Anyone has the right to divorce. You don’t need a halachic reason although their are halchachic reasons when a divorce is commanded.
As for my scenario above. The couple discusses the situation with a Rav. The therapist is given written permission to discuss their patient with the Rav. Upon hearing everything the Rav decides divorce is the best road. Don’t tell me that the couple does not have the right to divorce.
“Does that mean a son can demand his father pay his Yeshiva tuition at age 28?”
No by then it becomes the shver’s job.To the OP, it is easier to avoid a major mistake than it is to be a good husband/wife. To get more practical advice, you are better off for asking advice what you should do. My tip, housework jobs isn’t dependent on gender and nothing is anyone jobs. Whatever you and your spouse work out together is fine. It may take some time in the marriage, like a few months, for you to figure it out.
The right to divorce? Anyone has the right to divorce. You don’t need a halachic reason
Absolutely, completely and utterly incorrect. In order to unilaterally insist upon a divorce one most certainly does need a reason Halacha deems justifiable to mandate the other spouse give/accept the divorce. If both spouses mutually desire to divorce, no further reason is needed and they can do so. But if one spouse wishes to divorce whereas the other spouse wishes the marriage to continue, if the spouse desiring the divorce does not have a provable “cause” that is one of the few that Halacha deems justification to mandate that the spouse give/accept a Get, then the other spouse has the right to decline and refuse to give/accept a Get and Beis Din is halachicly mandated to accept the declining spouse’s insistence that the marriage not terminate in divorce.
The above is m’doraisa when it is the husband who doesn’t want to divorce. The Shulchan Aruch states that Beis Din can only mandate he give a divorce if one of the specific reasons the Gemorah lists as allowing a wife to force her husband to divorce her is applicable and proven. There are only a handful of reasons. (Certain physical deformities, physical violence, etc.) The Shulchan Aruch even says that if she claims he’s physically violent and he denies it (saying she’s claiming that only to force him to unwillingly divorce her), Beis Din needs to place an agent in their marital home to witness the veracity of the claim before they can accept her word. (And even that can only be done after they warned him to stop and she claims he’s continuing post-warning from B”D.)
If it is the husband who wants to divorce but the wife doesn’t want to divorce, she has the right to veto his ability to divorce her based upon that right given to her (which mimicks his similar m’doraisa right in this regard) based on Cherem D’Rabbeinu Gershom. If he’s Ashkenazic. If he’s not Ashkenazic then she doesn’t necessarily even have this right to stop him from divorcing her.
Importantly, note that Rabbeinu Gershom extended the right of one spouse to veto the other spouse’s request to divorce where that veto right didn’t exist pre-R”G. This point further underlines my point that a spouse has a veto right when their spouse requested a divorce. Rabbeinu Gershom even extended this veto (to the wife.)
although their are halchachic reasons when a divorce is commanded.
Indeed their are. Also worthy of noting is that Halacha has reasons when a requested divorce is automatically denied. For example, the Shulchan Aruch states that if the desire for divorce is because she wants to marry another specific person, her request is denied.
Upon hearing everything the Rav decides divorce is the best road. Don’t tell me that the couple does not have the right to divorce.
If they mutually agree with him, sure they have the right. But if one doesn’t agree, and there’s no halachic cause, then that right does not exist.
joseph: I see that the word “anyone” was a bad choice of words. It should have said “any couple has a right to a divorce”. I agree that a husband cannot give a “get” if the wife refuses to accept it and the husband cannot be forced without halachic cause to give one. My point was supposed be that divorces are not only caused by one of the parties making a mistake. Things happen that are unforeseen at the time of the shidduch/marriage that may have an effect. Also, while you are talking about a halachic divorce, a civil divorce can still be obtained. I do believe that in New York, the court needs to be advised when the “get” will be issued.
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