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As far as I’m concerned, if you’re old enough to drive, you’re old enough to get married
every person is differnt, There is no way to make generalizations about anyone, some might mature enough to be married at 18 and some mature later and 24 or more is a better choice
every person is differnt,
True, some people feel that as soon as kids are old enough to ride a bike without training wheels, they’re old enough to get married.
AbbaS -“A conflict resolution course should be a requirement before a couple could be married”
That’s nice. And how do you think that will help friends and/or family to not get involved?!?
Don’t be a sitting – chair quarterback!
Just curious, why would a conflict resolution course help when the couple doesn’t yet have conflict?
Doesn’t really sound timely…
I think a year after marriage is the perfect time, after the initial charm begins to wane…
Better yet, once you add two kids into the mix. That’s when the going gets harder. Until you have two small people demanding you to be in more than one place at a time, you don’t know what stress is.
Until that point, most normal people are able to be calm and patient with a spouse, I think. Once the BP starts to soar however, every little thing gets blown up and stress is inevitable in a marriage. Hard work is the only way for everyone to be happy.
Maybe there would not be so many divorces if singles weren’t ingrained with the belief that society views them as worthless unless they wed and procreate many probably enter into bad unions based on the fact this may be my last chance to get married I don’t want to be a statistic and a viewed as a nebbish for the rest of my life so maybe I will ignore what would appear to be a warning sign because I have been told I am way to picky.
Health:
Friends and relatives only get involved when they find out about it. The course teaches the couple to resolve the problem between themselves and not reveal their problems to others. I am not a sitting -chair quarterback, I am trying to find a solution to the problem of divorces in the community. There is a price society pays for all these divorces.
For example,I have a divorcee living on my block with three adult children, although they started out frum and went to yeshiva everyone is off the derech. They fights with themselves and the neighbors and the police have been called and have made numerous arrests at the home in order to maintain the peace. I believe, if the father would have had a greater influence on his children’s life growing up they might still be frum and not have problems with the police. While I will agree that not every divorce results in such dramatic problems many do.
Abba so maybe young couple should not have kids right away maybe they need a couple years to bond as a couple before deciding to start a family. By the way my life was impacted extremely negatively by having grown up in my fathers house.
True, some people feel that as soon as kids are old enough to ride a bike without training wheels, they’re old enough to get married.
People will always bring up extremes to try to disprove a point, Im sure there are some people who will say that you are not mature until you are 50, but thats also a silly comparison. Use your proper judgement and dont use extremes
Of course, but these types of arguments are used all the time – not ready to decide who to go out with = not ready to get married, not ready to date without a shadchan = not ready to get married, etc., and they’re not true. The question is only if they’re ready to get married, and nothing else.
Abba-S -“Friends and relatives only get involved when they find out about it. The course teaches the couple to resolve the problem between themselves and not reveal their problems to others.”
BTW, it’s normal to tell friends & relatives, but it’s not normal for them to get involved!
“I am not a sitting -chair quarterback,”
Of course you are!
“I believe, if the father would have had a greater influence on his children’s life growing up they might still be frum and not have problems with the police. While I will agree that not every divorce results in such dramatic problems many do.”
How do know it’s his fault? Maybe it’s the court’s fault? Did you ever learn Al Todin Ess Chavero Ad Shemagaih El M’komo?
Joseph, Rav Miller, as quoted by you, is an extremist who can’t be considered normative. You have him saying that just saying the word ” get ” is apikorsus. And, where did he get the 99% number that you attribute to him?
Some of Rav Miller’s views are indeed not considered normative, e.g. his views on voting.
That being said, calling usecof the word “get” apikosus is clearly rhetorical, not literal.
Health: Abba S wasn’t blaming the father for not being involved in his kids’ lives, he was blaming the fact that the parents’ were divorced (again, not going into the details of who wanted the divorce etc. just stating that fact) which was the catalyst for him being mostly out of the picture — without mentioning who’s idea that was. Even when the divorce and custody are amicable, the kids still can’t have the same relationship with both parents as when they are all living under one roof.
At least that’s how I understood his comment.
As an askan involved in both problem marriages and gittin, I find many of the comments here disturbing in that generalization is rampant, irresponsible, and ultimately useless. There is a bigger problem here. There are statistics being quoted, and most commenters seem to have zero grasp in interpreting them. I accept the statement from Rav Shteinman shlit”a about a vast majority of marriages being reparable. But this does not translate into a case where there should not be a get. Let’s explain. There is a famous quote about the bumblebee that should not be able to fly if one examines the involved aerodynamics. However, the bumblebee has not studied the science of aerodynamics, and flies anyway.
There are almost always points along the way at which a couple can still fix things. If they fail to do that, the option of a get becomes necessary. If we compare apples and oranges, we will never get it right. So may of the gittin are critically needed, and anyone in their right mind would see that, including Rav Shteinman shlit”a. There were junctures earlier that should have led to treatment, therapy, intervention, counseling, etc.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, marriages are entered with limited preparation, and halachos, while essential, only constitute a small portion of the needed readiness to marry.
TLIK, we already have members here who are chashuve poskim, health-care professionals, legal experts, experienced chefs and laundry buffs, and authorities on diverse topics from crying babies all the way to matters relating to the next world. So it’s gratifying to hear from you that we include in our ranks a noted askan as well.
Visiting the CR to smell the coffee, read some comments, be amused (on better days), and take the pulse of our fellow posters, is not a half bad way to while away a bit of time.
I was always sure that those requiring guidance in actual Halacha, or in real-life questions of child-raising, marriage, divorce (R”L), health and well-being, know that this is a place to hang out, not to get answers. Perhaps I was wrong about that. Perhaps that is the reason that discussions get so fierce, tempers are frayed, and feelings get hurt.
While it’s fun to read the recipes here, it won’t occur to any of us to suggest that to our spouses as an alternative to serving them a nice warm meal when Taanis Esther is over. Likewise the CR is not the cure or solution for anyone wondering how to heal that aching joint, raise that recalcitrant child, or work out Shalom Bayis issues.
If you all knew that already, then please ignore this and carry on where we left off…
Thank you, DY, for your good wishes.
The assertion that Divorce in 95% of circumstances, which Joseph made and has not retracted; and which you seem to have defended, flies in the face of halocho. Tell me, where in Devorim Perek chof daled do you see criminality described or implied? Do either the man or woman involved need to bring a korban chatos? Is there a punishment described, Or anything making it a La’av?
If Toras Moshe MiSinai doesn’t even describe it as a transgression or an undesired act like Nazir which needs a korban chatos at the end, Where does Joseph, or anyone he cites (and while he cites many who say divorce is often undesirable and avoidable, I don’t recall seeing qa source that says, like he did, that it is criminal) get the gumption to say it is criminal? And why would you defend the assertion?
Okay, I see your objection. I never took the word criminal in this discussion to be literal. See the last paragraph in this post: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/divorce-is-worse-than-a-difficult-marriage/page/3#post-604145.
I think (and have unfortunately seen close-up how) it devastates the children, and with enough effort from both spouses, most marriages probably could be salvaged, so the word criminal, used rhetorically, makes sense.
I am not saying his percentages are correct, I was just asking you how you knew they were incorrect.
Mammele -“Health: Abba S wasn’t blaming the father for not being involved in his kids’ lives,”
Yes he was! Here are his quotes:
“and divorce is a failure I believe,” “if the father would have had a greater influence on his children’s life growing up they might still be frum and not have problems with the police.”
Who is he blaming the failure of divorce? It might be also the wife, but he squarely puts the blame on the father! I think you also have a problem with reading comprehension.
DY, I’ve experienced all of that devastation. I don’t know if most could be saved with enough effort, but certainly many could. But effort is not enough. If you try but don’t take personal achrayus, and make the changes only you can make, it wont work. If you try but can’t forgive or be generous the way a healthy marriage demands, it wont work. If you aren’t self aware and able to articulate what hurts, scares, confounds, confuses, angers or worries you, and you don’t bother to share what encourages you, strengthens you or makes you smile, it won’t work. But even the most selfish and self unaware individual begins with the mistake that they can make their fantasy work – that may be stupidity, but it is not criminality.
Back to those who try honestly and can not make it succeed. Even rhetorically, I take massive exception to the notion it is “criminal” It is a blanket assertion thrown at people who for the most part are already pained and damaged by their experience. In what rhetorical world is that kind of callous disregard for others anything other than a reckless disregard for our responsibilities bein odom lechaveiro? “rhetoric” can be and often is a weapon of public embarrassment. I admit I am far from perfect in this regard. I do try not to let my emotion get the best of me, and I hope that I never have nor will throw a grenade like “criminal” at someone or many who are already dealing with the pain and isolation and loss of confidence and torn relationships that a divorce brings.
I know from my own interactions with botei din, with poskim, with marriage counselors, psychologists, social workers, with other divorcees, with couples that have figured out how to hold on to their marriage, with chosson and kallah teachers, that indeed many marriages can be saved, but only with the commitment I described above. And many marriages are foolishly entered into if the participants aren’t ready, but their parents, culture, and community push them forward anyways. My experience and my interlocutors indicate to me that 95% is a ridiculous number and 99% more so. I’d concede even that a majority could possibly be saved, again with the commitment described above. I have way, way more issues with the “criminal” assertion, actual or rhetorical.
Health: I still contend that you’re filtering his comments with your own personal lens, but I’ll let Abba S chime in as to whether he meant to blame the father for not being involved enough or simply accepted it as a byproduct of the divorce.
Mammele -“as to whether he meant to blame the father for not being involved enough”
Even if he was trying to blame fathers, I let it slide off me. But guys like Yichusdik, seem to take posters seriously. I’ve enough self-esteem not to let it bother me!
Mammele & Health:
I am not blaming the father at all in this case. The ex wife fight with both her kids and the neighbors. The wife has sole custody of the children and one time when one of the kids ran away to him the father had the police return the child. He can’t even talk to them without the wife’s permission even though he is paying child support and alimony.
The point I am trying to make is that divorce may solve the fighting on one level. It creates different problems on another level. This is besides the financial burden it places on the parents.
Thanks Abba S for validating my reading comprehension skills.
And I think everyone here agrees that divorce should only be a last resort.
I agree with you that divorce should only be used as a last resort, but what I am seeing is an epidemic of people in their early 20s divorced and with children. Many divorced before the child is one.
I have children of marriageable age so I subscribe to a shidduch listing were I get a listing of available singles. The listing only gives the initials, sex, the age, the shaddchun’s name, if divorced and if so how long, number of children, and a brief description. This is how I discovered this problem.
This problem is happening in all types of families whether they be working, rabbinic or Hasidic and there is a very good chance they will be living in a single parent family for years to come.
AbbaS -“The point I am trying to make is that divorce may solve the fighting on one level.”
You obviously didn’t understand my view. I agree with you that divorce should only be used as a last resort, but your example didn’t prove anything! The only thing you see from your example, is that the court’s don’t know what they’re doing!
Health:
A) I don’t understand your views, in fact I am not sure what your views are.
B)Divorces are granted by the state courts and in most cases the wife is granted more than she is entitled to, which results in the husband withholding the Get creating more problems.
C)People fail tests all the time and it’s not the end of the world. A child may fail a test it doesn’t mean he will the course. King David failed the test when it came to Bat Sheva but still the Mesiach will come from his children.
D) There is a divorce crisis caused by too many people getting into a relationships that they should never gotten into. Maybe in high school there should be a required course where everyone researches civil court divorces cases so that they understand what can happens in divorce.
E) I am not a Monday morning Quarterback. I am merely making comments to encourage an exchange of ideas so that maybe we can get a solution to this crisis.
I promise the first thing I thought when looking at the title of this post was it was for sure started by Joseph. I was right.
Abba-S -“B)Divorces are granted by the state courts and in most cases the wife is granted more than she is entitled to, which results in the husband withholding the Get creating more problems.”
The first part is true, not necessarily the last part! Sometimes the husband doesn’t withhold the Get. Sometimes he does, not necessarily for the reason you stated.
“C)People fail tests all the time and it’s not the end of the world. A child may fail a test it doesn’t mean he will the course. King David failed the test when it came to Bat Sheva but still the Mesiach will come from his children.
D) There is a divorce crisis caused by too many people getting into a relationships that they should never gotten into. Maybe in high school there should be a required course where everyone researches civil court divorces cases so that they understand what can happens in divorce”
IDK if there’s a crisis. And there’s a lot of reasons people get divorced. Saying that people shouldn’t have gotten into the marriage in the first place is the epitome of hindsight!
I am sure there are many perspectives about divorce. A usual, I wish to add my two cents.
Often times, we address the news of a divorce, or an impending one, with the thought that the shidduch was a mistake. It is assumed that the dissolution of the marriage indicates it was never a match. I would not argue that this is never true. I am sure this is sometimes the case. More often, I believe, the shidduch is bashert, was proclaimed by a bas kol, and once there are children, one must believe that HKB”H wanted these children to be born of these two parents. So the hindsight about the shidduch is more often unfounded.
A bigger issue is that many are poorly prepared to marry and manage the challenges built into the structure that marriage is. There’s enough blame to spread around, between societal and cultural values, parental role models, the serious deficiencies in chosson and kallah preparation, the lack of education on fundamental interpersonal midos in yeshivos, schools, and seminaries, the trend to glorify the lifestyles founded on dependency, etc. Many marriages start off with two immature kids, who might be wonderful people, but cannot tolerate the stresses of living with another person as marriage requires. So many divorces are failures, many doomed from the start, many with the symptoms appearing later when the pressure increases.
When I read comments like “There is a divorce crisis caused by too many people getting into a relationships that they should never gotten into”, I wonder. Is it the individual that should not have been the chosen one, or that there was a complete lack of preparedness for any relationship? I postulate that the latter is true more often than the former. No research, no empirical data, just observation and belief.
TLIK, don’t forget about bechirah.
TLIK -“There’s enough blame to spread around, between societal and cultural values, parental role models, the serious deficiencies in chosson and kallah preparation, the lack of education on fundamental interpersonal midos in yeshivos, schools, and seminaries, the trend to glorify the lifestyles founded on dependency, etc”
These are all true! But you forgot one main reason, which applied also to me. The fact that others got involved with their Loshon Hora & most importantly with their Motzay Shem Rah!
Health:
I was addressing issues related to the entry into marriage. Not the issues that occur within it, and when others interfere when the going gets rough. Your point is valid, but it was not overlooked. It was just outside the scope of my comment.
You are correct that the interference factor is severe. It might meet the criteria for shmiras halashon violations, and might sometimes not. Try this example. A couple is married, with the most wonderful information having been traded about the two prospects. Little known, was that the young man had been in psychiatric treatment for 2 years, was taking medication for a rather serious problem, and that this is a condition that is not curable, but treatable with meds to reduce symptoms. When the young bride caught her husband taking a pill, he told her it was a vitamin. It was many months later when the truth was revealed. All the while, he was “going to kollel”, where his father was his chavrusa, as he was not material for anyone else. No lashon horah, no rechilus, no motzi shem rah. Just lies that even the Chofetz Chaim instructs not to say.
TLIK -“Try this example.”
You’re correct with your example. I think though most cases involve something like that happened to me! A regular marriage, but s/o with an agenda decided to destroy it!
Saying the word GET is not apikorsus, under ANY understanding whatsoever. It is a Mitzvah D’Oraisah to give a woman a GET under the necessary circumstances. It may be a sad and tragic Mitzvah to have to fulfill, but so is levayas hameis. Both concepts are because something or someone has died.
Because the word was mentioned, from now on it has entered the realm of possibility. It should be unpardonable to say that word.
I find this ironic, because if divorce is treif and saying the word is unpardonable, a couple finds itself stuck living out the rest of their lives together hating each other if one of them says that word, even if they had a good marriage before the word was said.
I think what many who post are trying to say is that Get and or divorce should not be the first choice. We unlike the Catholics have a method to dissolve the marriage which is via a Get. This should be used rarely. I also don’t want couples to be in a relationship where they are hating each other.
I think many parents cater to their child’s every need and after they are married they expect their spouse to do the same. When this doesn’t happen fights ensue which then may lead to divorce.
Divorce is Worse than a Difficult Marriage Is divorce also worse than a marriage where the other spouse has moved out? and is refusing to move back in.
At that point it can hardly be called a marriage, I would think.
“Because the word was mentioned, from now on it has entered the realm of possibility. It should be unpardonable to say that word.”
You’re right, the Torah totally messed up when it mentioned it.
R’ Avigdor Miller, class #646 Mind of Control
[1:27:36] Unfortunately today there’s a rash of divorces and in most cases it’s Jewish women. Even the frum Jewish women are demanding divorces from their husbands, all over, everywhere. It’s an epidemic and a tragedy of tragedies. They are ruining their lives, but most of all they are ruining their neshamas.
People are not willing to make peace with their circumstances. Say I’m going to live the best I can with the circumstances that Hashem gave me. These are the people who are going to succeed and they are achieving what’s called shlaimus of parishas haratzon. They are conquering their passions. They are ruling with their minds over their emotions. And that is the greatest perfection.
MTAB – good point!
What does also occur is that others pushed her off! These women are not interested in making Sholom, but they must always get their way.
I feel bad whomever crosses their path, including their spouse!
“Unfortunately today there’s a rash of divorces and in most cases it’s Jewish women”
Does it occur to you that these women are possibly being mistreated and therefore are opting for divorce?
Queen -“Does it occur to you that these women are possibly being mistreated and therefore are opting for divorce?”
I’m sure there are women that are slapped around and they should get divorced. And there are women who are so spoiled that they demand everything in the world!
They have a name for this – JAP!
“Unfortunately today there’s a rash of divorces and in most cases it’s Jewish women”
Call me the berditchiver but I say baruch hashem that in most cases the jewish men are divorcing jewish women and not divorcing shiksas!
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