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what’s so sad about this is that because Joseph has some possibly valid complaints about yichusdik’s view of gedolim (I don’t keep track of these things so I have no comment on it), he and those who will join the tackle pile will totally negate the valid points that were made. This happens all the time in this forum. If someone says ANYTHING that is inappropriate, instead of addressing it and still being mature and honest enough to hear a valid point, we just throw the whole person in the blender.
It is not ad hominen to mention the history of a poster who begins controversy and then fights hard on it. Just as attitudes towards gedolim are rehashed and reminded in order to give context to comments, so is posting history.
in this case Joseph did not present an honest fight. He waffled. He is harshly accusing someone of disagreeing with a point that he paraphrased out of context, he is taking a comment a gadol made in a context and stating it as a stand alone fact. He does have a history of cut and pasting from other sites and other threads and enjoys specializing in controversial topics that can be damaging to some people’s spirituality when posted in such forums without background or face to face time. if you are lucky enough to force him in a corner he just up and disappears. Remembering this when you get engaged in these ‘discussions’ is crucial as people get hurt and damage happens.
DY, I’m surprised that you’re surprised.
Surely you know that 98% of people who take people to task for ad hominem attacks, like the person at whom the ad hominem attack is directed. When the object of the attack is someone who is disliked, then the ad hominem attack is considered an integral point of the argument.
(Ok, I made up my 98%. No studies were carried out to determine the exact number. But I like how everyone here is so sure of everything they say. Even when what they’re so sure of is based on a one time, one shot deal or experience. So I thought I better pretend to be sure as well.)
I rest my case.
Syag: If you are referring to the story from Rav Shteinman that I related, I provided the entirety of the story as related in print by Rabbi Yair Hoffman. I also provided in which Sefer it can be found.
The quote provided Rav Shteinman’s full answer, so your stating it is out of context is not correct. And Rav Shteinman related the story of the advice he gave that woman, and her later regret at not accepting his advice to remain married, for the purpose of teaching us a moral lesson from it.
DY – I suggest that describing what is clear from even the multiple names on this thread going back years, as well as the repeated plagiarizing from frumteens without attribution that Joseph has engaged is not only not ad hominem, it is essential to understand who it is who is making assertions that divorce is criminal.
I don’t share Joseph’s view of the gedolim. Nor do I disdain them as a group, or (with one or two exceptions that I can think of, based only on their actions and statements) individuals, but I have been critical of some actions and strategies that seem to cry out for explanation, because they haven’t worked or aren’t working out so well.
I am very critical of the notion that Gedolim are infallible and can’t be questioned. They aren’t popes, and we aren’t Catholics.
I have been at pains to describe that I do not think Divorce is a first option, even a second. I don’t wish my experience on anyone, and there are worse situations than mine. Counseling on both a professional and rabbinic level was done. Reconciliation after separation was worked on for many months. The road with the kids has been long and challenging.
Nothing Joseph asserts can approach or match the pain of a marriage that can’t be saved. But I can say unequivocally that I am a better man, a better father, and a better soon to be married choson for having made the decisions and done the hard work and taken the responsibility for my part in the pain that I did. And I believe the large majority of divorced couples, frum or otherwise, are not the simplistic, selfish oafs the examples Joseph brought make them out to be.
If you can’t see the simple wrongness of the assertion that 95% of divorce is criminal, then I hope and pray you never are put in a position to render help or counsel to someone who is going through a marriage breakup. With that perspective, you will have nothing to offer them but more pain.
Joe -“And it was one of the Gedolei Yisroel that stated that 99% of the divorces in the frum world were avoidable and unnecessary”
This is unfortunately true. But the opinion in this topic that it can be avoided by either spouse is not reality!
People like to get involved for one side or the other. The best thing for people to do is find an impartial therapist when considering such thing as divorce!
Ad hominem attacks are not a valid argument, but they don’t invalidate an argument.
Golfer, it’s 97.3%.
I guess I was surprised that Wolf wasn’t in the 2.7%.
Yichusdik, you still haven’t explained how you know it’s wrong.
Mazel Tov, may you be zocheh to build a bayis ne’eman, and may He heal all wounds.
Health: He didn’t say it could be avoided by either spouse. It takes two to tango. And, indeed as you implied, often the fault for this point isn’t shared or equally shared. His point was that often the divorce could have been avoided, even while the sofer was still writing the Get, had both parties saw fit and worked to avoid it.
you know what, golfer, if that was directed at me than it was grossly out of place.
I was making a point that people have to stop arguing/siding with others based on how they feel about their hashgofos, and then you comment that I made your case for choosing sides based on how much i like someone?
I don’t comment based on how much i like someone, and i don’t support people based on who they attack. I comment on people’s words and that alone and believe me i have been publicly humiliated here for doing so. If someone i vehemently disagree with is correct, i support their words, if someone i always respect is rude, i say so.
I didn’t expect that from you and i sure hope i read you wrong. Ive been hurt enough by posters who cant cope with someone they “hate” being defended, to the point that i have been “accused” of agreeing with inappropriate torah views because “why else would someone defend someone if they didn’t *like* them”
Joseph – it seems based on the story that Rav Shteinman advised that woman not to divorce because she wanted to divorce in order to marry a “better husband”. If a woman is being abused she should get divorced in order to end this bad marriage. Regardless of whether she will ever get married again. I don’t think anyone should divorce only in order to potentially marry someone else.
Rav Shteinman said “I tried convincing her to make the best of the situation she was in and turn it around.” Obviously she had a troubled marriage before getting divorced.
And Rav Shteinman was retelling this story in order to encourage future couples considering divorce to avoid it.
I tried convincing her to make the best of the situation is not anything like saying that divorce is criminal. and it was wisely pointed out this woman had the wrong reason for wanting a divorce. and it is YOUR extrapolation, it seems, that says he was retelling this to future couples in other situations. Why didn’t he just say, “It is wrong for you to divorce. It cannot be done and I forbid you”?
It is not fair for you to take words of Gedolim, play with them, and then jump on people who disagree with your version, accusing them of disagreeing with a Gadol.
although you will decide for yourself my stand on divorce based on your twisted, disgusting and false perceptions of my views, i am not even joining that discussion, I am commenting on your unfair play in the game of conversation.
“I tried convincing her to make the best of the situation she was in and turn it around” is, as I said, an indication that “she had a troubled marriage.”
And why else do you think that Rav Shteinman retold this story to answer the question of “Why are there so many failed marriages today?”
Again, here is the link to the article:
Dating Questions Posed to Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita and Rav Aron Leib Shteinman Shlita
Here are the key words:
– Rav Shteinman
The clear meaning seems to be that the reason she wanted a divorce wasn’t to find a better husband, but to escape a bad marriage. However, rather than try to make the best of it and try to fix the marriage, she figured she’d get divorced and remarried, and now regrets that she didn’t stay in the marriage and try to work on it.
The obvious lesson R’ Shteinman is trying to impart is that one should do their utmost to fix a an unpleasant marriage rather than leave, and wouldn’t likely be telling the story if he didn’t feel it was a common occurrence.
The word criminal (which R’ Shteinman is not quoted as using) is obviously an exaggeration, but the negative effect on children is known, and in cases (whatever the percentages may be) where parents took what they thought was the easier way out when they could have fixed the marriage through hard work, they do bear responsibility.
Thank you, Daas Yochid.
Most divorces can be avoided if the parties would apologize prior to going to sleep. Many of us when we say kriyas shemah forgive those who have sinned against us, which is more or less the same thing. By the time they go to a professional the hatred has spiraled out of hand, each party knows what to do to antagonize the other and divorce is the only option. It’s like an addiction as soon as they get together they fight.
I know a timid guy wouldn’t hurt a fly or talk back to anyone who got married to a woman, the next thing I hear they are adopting her niece. Within a year they were divorced, but since he adopted the wife’s niece he was stuck with child support. This guy was close with R’ Miller who was strongly against divorces and probably spoke to him prior to getting divorced.
From a financial standpoint they are better off remaining together as child support and alimony plus the cost of maintaining two home will drain their assets. Does a wife who is supporting her husband and divorces him have to pay alimony?
From an emotional standpoint they maybe better off getting divorced. The stress of fighting will result in health problem besides psychological problems for years to come.
As far as who is at fault each case must be decided on it’s own merits, but many divorces could have been resolved if they would both apologize when their fight just started. It’s like the Hatfield & the McCoy who had a feud and even though no one can remember what it was about they were still killing each other.
I fail to see how anyone involved can benefit from a loveless marriage.
“Abusive husbands represent a very small percent of the overall divorce rate in the frum community. “
NOT TRUE
I know a whole community of single women, many of them already b”H happily remarried, who were married to abusive men. Personally, and this is anecdotal, 99% of the divorcees I know were married to either abusive, or mentally/emotionally unwell spouses. Yiddishe mammas by and large don’t say good by to their husbands because they didn’t take out the garbage! And NO ONE is in a position to judge.
The term and the claim of abuse is, as Yogi Berra used to say, greatly abused.
P.S. You opine that no one’s in a position to judge immediately after you harshly judged (based on, no less than, one sides story) a “whole community” of ex-husbands.
I would add that in a genuine case of abuse, it may not be the fault of the abused, but it certainly is the fault of the abuser, and the term criminal becomes much closer to, if not actually, literal.
“You opine that no one’s in a position to judge”
If the divorced couple should or shouldn’t have divorced. No one can judge the pain involved. And the dysfunction isn’t always obvious to the outside. To say that people divorce because no one wants to say “I’m sorry” is hurtful, stupid, and shows how little you know. ‘I’m sorry’ can’t help if there is a personality disorder involved.
About judging the community of men. I didn’t mention them at all, however, many of the women (I know) are happily remarried, while the men, are simply not marriage material, and remain single. Obviously, there are instances where the man is healthy and the woman is not.
Interestingly, where both spouses are unhealthy, often they stay together. When one spouse is healthy and the other is not, then the healthy one suffers tremendously and often needs to end it eventually.
Any way you slice and dice it, you hypocritically clearly judged a whole community even without necessitating mentioning them.
You also are disagreeing with Rav Shteinman, Rav Miller and other gedolei yisroel who did render a judgement on the tremendous amount of unnecessary and preventable divorces that have occurred in the frum community.
And if the barometer for your judgement is which ex-spouse remarried and which did not, be informed that in the “community” of divorcees the men tend to remarry quicker and the men remarry more often than the women (while the women are more likely than the men to never remarry.) This point can be confirmed by shadchanim dealing with divorcees. Using your criteria we apparently know who is to blame, don’t we. Unless, of course, you were rendering your judgement based on one sided stories. Considering you judged “99%” of the men of the “whole community” to be guilty, even prior to accounting who remarried and who not, that is most obvious.
I looked at the quote from Rav Shteinman a little differently. Full quote below:
The rav used this woman as an example of someone who thought she would remarry right after divorcing. It seems like she did not divorce in order to be without him even if it means being alone.
That is correct.
Had she really felt that leaving him was necessary even if there were no hope she would ever remarry, he would not have made his point.
The implication is that had she felt that way, she would have done more to salvage the marriage.
Queen -“I know were married to either abusive, or mentally/emotionally unwell spouses”
Abusive – there are all kinds of abuse. Did a therapist recommend divorce?
M/E Unwell – Did a therapist recommend divorce? Now there’s all kinds of unwell, (a lot can be treated). As a matter of fact – every 4 – 5 people in society have a mental illness!
“you hypocritically clearly judged a whole community even without necessitating mentioning them”
When I said no one can judge. What I meant was, no one can judge whether or not the divorce was necessary, since no one can judge the level of pain.
I don’t know where you take your data from. I am taking mine from the slice of the population that I happen to know. Whether or not that is or isn’t a good sampling for a ‘statistics study’ I don’t know.
Queen -“while the men, are simply not marriage material, and remain single.”
Whose criteria is it (not marriage material), yours or s/o else’s?
“Whose criteria is it (not marriage material), yours or s/o else’s?”
The women who go out with them who are scared off by the bright red flags.
In many cases staying together simply isn’t an option and divorce would be beneficial to everyone involved. I grew up in a home where my parents’ personalities clashed and every single thing became a huge fight. My siblings and I wished that they would just get a divorce and end the misery. But because of the tabboo surrounding divorce they stayed married. This had a negative impact on me and my siblings and we all have trouble maintaining healthy relationships. On the outside we seemed liked a normal family and no one knew how much all of us suffered.
I look back on that painful period in my life and can honestly say that a divorce would have been so much better than trying to “make the best of the situation”. Couples who, for whatever reasons, can’t stay married should get a divorce and ignore that nosy, nasty, judgemental people who think they know what’s best for someone else’s marriage.
You were doubly hypocritical. First you judged that “whole community” that their divorces were necessary despite outright opining that “no one can judge whether or not the divorce was necessary.” A direct contradiction. Secondly, it is senseless to claim that no one can judge whether or not the divorce was necessary but then yourself to judge not only was it necessary but for you to go a step further and also judge who is to blame for the divorce. And for a whole community, to boot. And you’ve determined based on one sided stories (apparently combined with that some of them remarried while their exes had not yet) that the guilt lies in “99%” of the cases with one particular side. Of the whole community.
As stated, various gedolim “judged”, on a communal basis, that very many divorces were senseless and could and should have been avoided.
As far as the statistics are concerned, anyone with at least one eye on shidduchim for remarriages can tell you that there are many more divorced women still waiting for a shidduch than divorced men still waiting. (This point is also likely the case in the secular world, which could be verified with marriage records stats.) Another little tidbit of statistics is that divorces are sought in about 75% of the cases by the wife, not the husband. That can be verified by available court records, various available academic analysis based on said records as well as by butei dinim. You might also be aware that al pi halacha a Get need only be given if the husband desires to divorce unless it is proven with evidence in beis din that he is guilty of one of the rare violations that al pi halacha mandates he give it. The correlation of the latter statistic with this halacha may not be coincidental.
And “the slice of the population that [you] happen to know”, aside from being anecdotal, is very unrepresentitive even if we make the stretch of assuming your assumptions and judgement is correct.
I’m probably about to get really attacked but honestly divorce could be something we hear less and less about if the way people date changes. There should not be pressure to get engaged after just a few meetings. There should be opportunity for the couple to get to know each other in a more natural way without a shadchan in between being the communication. It isn’t fair to put all this pressure on young people who still haven’t fully matured to recognize the struggles of marriage. So many of them are just obsessing about the idea of marriage, vs. what it actually means. I know many many girls who just envy the next girl who gets engaged because it has become a “phenomenon”, and boys are so “scarce and limited” that girls will just take the first guy they get because they think no one else will come around for them. Who is putting these ideas into their head? Since when does this refelct our emunah in Hashem? This is a man made problem that must be fixed.
People don’t realize that marriage doesn’t solve problems, it takes on someone else problems. And learning to work these kinds of things out before they even get ENGAGED (yes shock, they should date for longer/ talk more outside of their 4 hour dates) they would have just a little bit more knowledge into how marriage to this person will be.
Maybe rabbis don’t trust these couples to stay shomer, but frankly, they will have to be shomer for half their lives anyways. And if we can’t trust them with this, then how can we trust them to go into a marriage and have children which both of these need a lot of maturity and responsibility.
Please don’t attack me…this is just a thought.
oh Queen, I’m afraid you are missing the point. When posters find flaws in Josephs argument he either disappears, or he starts putting someone else on the defensive. Your points were clear and your stories were illustrative of a specific group, just as you stated. This is just a diversion.
Just here to agree with OURtorah.
Queen -“The women who go out with them who are scared off by the bright red flags.”
So you’re saying, it was the women friends who decided that the couple should get divorced?!? No impartial Rabbonim or therapists?!?
Thank you Syag, btw that is how abusive people operate. They take a normal conversation where people are stating what they observe and twist it into something else. Making the other person question reality.
” Another little tidbit of statistics is that divorces are sought in about 75% of the cases by the wife,”
That is because, according to a gittin dayan I knew personally, who isn’t with us any longer, 90% of the divorce in his bais din were the husband’s ‘fault’.
OURtorah and writersoul: Dating for a year isn’t going to fix the problem. Goyim actually move in with each other to ‘try it out’ and many of them end up divorcing anyway after they marry.
The path to a happy and healthy marriage is happy and healthy people. Not how long you date.
Health, you need to brush up on your reading comprehension.
I spoke to several of the dayanim who are involved in a large portion of the gittin in the frum community in the United States in the Heimish, Litvish and Chasidish communities. And they by consensus agreed that most gittin were avoidable and unnecessary, and that the vast majority of needless gittin were demanded by the women. And of the minority of gittin that were unavoidable, about a third were the mutual fault of both parties and a third were the fault of the husband and a third the wife.
OURtorah and writersoul: Dating for a year isn’t going to fix the problem. Goyim actually move in with each other to ‘try it out’ and many of them end up divorcing anyway after they marry.
The path to a happy and healthy marriage is happy and healthy people. Not how long you date.
Maskim. Whatever anecdotal evidence there might be would, if anything, indicate a correlation between higher divorce rates and longer dating.
about a third were the mutual fault of both parties and a third were the fault of the husband and a third the wife.
Didn’t Rav Avigdor Miller zt”l say that 99% of the time, it’s the woman’s fault?
…
…and 90% of the time, it’s the man’s fault?
Queen -“That is because, according to a gittin dayan I knew personally, who isn’t with us any longer, 90% of the divorce in his bais din were the husband’s ‘fault’.”
What do you mean by “who isn’t with us any longer”?
Do you mean the “Rabbi” who was put in jail for beating reluctant husbands to give their wives Gitten?
Rav Avigdor Miller said 99% of frum divorces were avoidable and unnecessary. That doesn’t disagree with the dayanim’s opinion I cited above.
Health, he passed away.
The queen- i never said date for a year, so shkoyach to you for making a grand statement. I never said dating longer was the only solution. I stressed communication is super important. Having a shadchan as the in between doesn’t help this and by the time the couple is ready to get married, all important conversation revolves that and then the wedding and then the first baby. Where is the couples relationship? if the only purpose of marriage was to have children then why isn’t everyone having kids until the woman can’t anymore and then divorcing? Because marriage is so much more than the wedding and the kids. It is also about a healthy bond between the parents.
And this bond should not have to wait til after marriage to grow. Young men and women should get the proper communication experiance before. And furthermore, they must not be pressured! this was a huge point a stressed. The pressure on girls is major and they are treated like cattle in this experiance of shidduchim. It’s no wonder the divorce rate is high.
OURtorah, sorry I read you wrong. I disagree that having a shadchan harms the marriage relationship. I also disagree that you have to have a whole relationship going before the wedding. you are of course entitled to your opinion.
OURtorah -“There should be opportunity for the couple to get to know each other in a more natural way without a shadchan in between being the communication”
You sound like you’re MO!
Idk how many dates you’ve been on with a Shadchan in-between, but the way your describing it, is not the way it is! After a few dates, the couple goes on their own.
In the regular world people have be accused of gashmuius when it comes to dating and marriage and in many cases its true, but unfornatly in the frum community the same has occured , but for different reasons.
Outsiders have been accused of shallowness for wanting to know about looks or other things, but is this any better or worse than telling an older woman who has trouble walking, not to use a wheelchair in front of certain people as not to damage her grandaughters shidduch chances (This happend to a family member) or hiding disabled siblings as not to damage a shidduch or just caring what challah board someone uses.
There is shallowness and gashnius in any system, it just shows up in different places
Life is a test and marriage is a test and divorce is a failure. Before the marriage they both thought the other was the greatest. What happened? To drive a car you need to pass both a written and driving test. To get married there are no such test although they may study the laws of niddah.
They are starting to give Shalom Bias classes here in Brooklyn but the ones that need it never attend these classes. Many of couples don’t take criticism well resulting in fights, parents/in laws and or friends get involved and it spirals out of control until the end result is divorce.
A conflict resolution course should be a requirement before a couple could be married. The course should have role playing where they are taught how to resolve disputes amicably and avoid the constant fighting and divorce.
Will this happen? I tend to doubt it but it could help eliminate the cause for difficult marriages and divorces.
The Queen, DY: Like OURTorah, I don’t think any relationships need to last a year before you can get engaged, much less that anyone needs to move in together beforehand either. I do think that the time needs to be taken to have enough of a relationship that each party really knows the other, it’s not just “wow this is a great opportunity, and so much better than it could have been.” Or, really, it should be more than just “wow this is a great guy/girl”- by engagement, there should be more of a connection. (I am 19 years old- not even withered on the vine yet- and I’ve already been talked to about settling, and I don’t mean setting my gaze to someone who’s not a future rosh yeshiva with Artscroll-biography middos and a warm smile.) If making that connection means more than 10 dates, I’ll take more than 10 dates.
And I agree to an extent about the shadchan stuff- having an intermediate for the first date or two is fine (and I definitely don’t think it has to be an “official shadchan”) but I keep on hearing about people who break up after six dates through the shadchan even after they’d officially “dropped the shadchan”- which is both a lack of menschlichkeit and really immature. If you can’t have a big-boy discussion about having to break up, you shouldn’t be looking into big-boy stuff like marriage. (I use a male example because all three examples I have of this situation have been of men doing it to women.)
I also SUPER agree with the women-treated-like-cattlle-or-commodities thing. Call me a starry-eyed teenager, but I think that dealings related to marriage should be a bit less formalistic, pressured and businesslike than they are, where boys are treated like the popular kid’s shiny new tricycle and girls are treated like the other kid’s rusty scooter that he’s trying to trade away but has to throw in other stuff to sweeten the deal.
I disagree with long courtships/engagement not being a tznius issue (taharas hamishpachah is a very bad analogy), and I disagree with this having any shaychus whatsoever with the divorce rate.
I’m not going to quibble about whether there should be six, eight, or ten dates, but I think it is something decided on an individual basis and there shouldn’t be preconceived notions – not that you need ten, and not that a decision must be made after six. At a certain point, though, there is no benefit, and only risk.
I think if there’s a good shadchan, the longer they stay involved, the better chance the shidduch has to succeed.
Oh, and I despise artificial analogies about age. As far as I’m concerned, if you’re old enough to drive, you’re old enough to get married. Or maybe, if you’re not old enough to receive social security, you’re not old enough to get married – I forget which.
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