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I think you are all forgetting the major reason for the drastic increase in divorces and the irreperable nature of the problems:
internet addiction-specifically inappropriate website
29 -shkoyach!
Although to be fair, I think that divorces were on the rise before Internet so it is clearly not the only factor, and I think that in most of the cases that I know of that was not the issue. But it definitely can contribute greatly.
I said the drastic increase, and in 75% of cases around me it was absolutely the case.
29 -“I think you are all forgetting the major reason for the drastic increase in divorces and the irreperable nature of the problems:
internet addiction-specifically inappropriate website”
I extremely disagree!
These problems are not irreparable!
Maybe it’s easier to fall into the problems because of technology.
But it’s the lack of trying to solve problems that is common in our generation!
Like another poster previously wrote – it’s the paper-plate throw away generation.
DY, please reread what I wrote and what you wrote.
“the numbers on divorce in the chareidi community are concurrent with any other community where social and religious conformity are prioritized. (Mormons, Amish, conservative Muslim, strict Catholic).”
To which you said you strongly disagree…..And then after I gave statistics, you wrote essentially the same thing.
???
Maybe it’s easier to fall into the problems because of technology
Maybe? Definitely!
These problems are not irreparable!
oh really? Try being a 20 year old bais yaakov girl married to a guy who has gotten all his ideas online
I will not elaborate.
Yichusdik, my point isn’t statistics, and your quiting statistics is not very meaningful because there are so many factors which can skew the results.
My point is that living according to the Torah is the best possible way to have shalom bayis.
Do you agree?
DY wrote, “I guess you don’t think that living according to the Torah gives us a healthier ability to relate to people than does living according to some other system, l’havdil.”
I thought one of my earlier comments was more clear. While I do not know of statistical differences among the various subgroups within the frum community in terms of divorce rates, I do not believe there is any degree of protection from the external appearances of the “Torah lifestyle”. This is not because I question whether a Torah true life is better in all regards, including shalom bayis. It is because I question whether the external presentations as being a “Torah Jew” are accurate. I know of way too many cases of talmidei chachomim, whose knowledge of Torah is voluminous, who also engaged in behaviors that were far the opposite – but in secret. They did what Hillary did. Invested great effort in not getting caught. Yes, illicit relationships, schmutz on the internet, etc. No one should doubt the Torah true life is protective. It involves, by definition, mastery of midos bein odom lachaveiro, and a value system that is unsurpassed. And it bears repeating. There are plenty of these fake “tzaddikim”, and there are a probably equal number of these fake “tzidkaniyos”.
29 -“oh really? Try being a 20 year old bais yaakov girl married to a guy who has gotten all his ideas online
I will not elaborate.”
You don’t have to – at least not to me!
I’m in the medical field which most have some psychological knowledge along with it.
Again they are not irreparable.
But unfortunately the therapists that deal with the Frum community, have to acquire more knowledge, that was once only applicable to Goyim!
TLIK, sure there are fakers, but aren’t there erlich’e Yidden as well?
Aren’t we, as a whole, better off? Or are you so cynical that you think the vast majority of drum Yidden are fakers?
29 – “I said the drastic increase, and in 75% of cases around me it was absolutely the case.”
Wow, that’s so sad! I definitely know of several cases in which that wasn’t the case, but there are many cases about which I wouldn’t know.
Regarding “drastic increase”, my point was that once it became acceptable to get divorced, it makes sense that the numbers would have increased drastically even without Internet. But it is also possible that Internet is to blame.
DY Even within a Torah outlook there are elements to prioritize for optimal results. In this case of marriage, prioritizing communications and respect and being don lkaf zchus within a torah context will highlight the best possible way to have sholom bayis.
LU -“But it is also possible that Internet is to blame.”
I think that there is now social problems/social pressure than ever before in Klal Yisroel!
Eg. Girls only want guys who are sitting in learning, but a lot of them shouldn’t be.
So now you have a situation where the guy needs an outlet – so a healthy outlet would be working part time & learning part time.
But due to social pressure he stays in the Yeshiva full time.
When it gets too much he turns to the Internet, which is readily available. And then he doesn’t make sure to filter it!
“I said the drastic increase, and in 75% of cases around me it was absolutely the case.”
Another reason why it’s a good idea to try to go out with guys who don’t watch movies or use the Internet if possible.
Daas Yachid: “Yichusdik, my point isn’t statistics, and your quiting statistics is not very meaningful because there are so many factors which can skew the results.
My point is that living according to the Torah is the best possible way to have shalom bayis.”
Daas Yachid: “TLIK, sure there are fakers, but aren’t there erlich’e Yidden as well?
Aren’t we, as a whole, better off? Or are you so cynical that you think the vast majority of Frum Yidden are fakers?”
DY – +1!
I don’t know that guys who work part time have less internet access.
Yichusdik – avadai! I don’t think DY was saying otherwise (unless I missed something). I think that is the point. That Torah teaches us to have good middos which means trying to work on communication and respect and being dan l’kaf zchus.
Additionally, being aware that you are doing it for a higher purpose and that you share a common goal with your spouse should make a difference. It seems to me that knowing that the purpose of your marriage is not stam for your own enjoyment but for the purpose of building a home of Torah should help someone to get through the rough times and keep going even when things aren’t going so well and your spouse is being annoying and you feel like you would be better off without him.
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Another reason why it’s a good idea to try to go out with guys who don’t watch movies or use the Internet if possible.
I’ll assume you are joking. These are those guys. On paper.
Health – almost everyone who works nowadays uses Internet. Almost everyone I know who uses Internet works. Most men I know who are learning davka don’t use Internet. It is precisely because so many people work and because Internet is generally needed for work that so many Frum people use Internet.
That is actually one of the reasons why someone SHOULD stay in learning or klei Kodesh.
29 – not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the cases you know of all involved guys who were hiding their Internet use and no one knew about it?
DY:
Of course there are real people. And if one surmises that there is a negligible amount of divorce among these real people, I can see the logic and even believe it. The difficulty is that there are many who appear to bed bnei aliyah who are actually rotten on the inside. The true Yir’as Shomayim can be detected when the person is not being watched. The cameras lie in that the scenes are all when the individual is observed. Your implication is correct – that frum, truly ehrliche Yidden probably manage their marriages better. But how many of those we know are ???? ????? We are not privy to the information. And we are left to the judgments based on precisely the information that is not the true basis to judge.
But how many of those we know are ???? ????? We are not privy to the information. And we are left to the judgments based on precisely the information that is not the true basis to judge.
Exactly! like assuming an internet addict is probably someone who watches movies or is openly an “internet user”
LU -“to get through the rough times and keep going even when things aren’t going so well”
Why should there be “rough times”? If the couple does what they’re supposed to do & everybody chips in; there are challenges, but nothing that they can’t handle!
LU -“That is actually one of the reasons why someone SHOULD stay in learning or klei Kodesh”
What statistics do you have that people who are learning don’t go to bad sites as opposed to working guys?
DY -“I don’t know that guys who work part time have less internet access”
My theory is – if you have an outlet, then there’s less chance of having unfiltered internet!
29 – someone who claims to use internet or watch movies is more likely to be watching movies or using internet than someone who claims not to and whose references say that they are sure he doesn’t. Between 99% – 100% of people who claim to use Internet or watch movies do so. I don’t know the percentages of those who claim not to and really do but it is certainly far less.
Health – most people who are learning don’t use Internet at all. Anyone who does use Internet is automatically exposed to bad things. I doubt that you can find someone who uses Internet on a regular basis (especially if they have to use it for work) who never saw something they shouldn’t have. I have friends who are super-careful about these things who inadvertently saw bad things on the Internet when they were using it for work purposes.
I don’t disagree, but the counter theory is that the yeshiva guy is often (not always) in a better environment.
“My theory is – if you have an outlet, then there’s less chance of having unfiltered internet!”
Maskim, but an outlet doesn’t have to mean working. If the point is to avoid Internet, other outlets (such as sports) would be more helpful than working.
I’m not disputing the fact that there may be people who should be working (at least part-time) who aren’t. I’m just disputing the fact that people who work are less likely to use Internet than those who learn.
Personally, most people (or maybe everyone) I know who is learning should be learning and takes their learning seriously and is not using Internet.
There may be those who aren’t like that (BH, those aren’t the people I know), but there are certainly many who do.
DY -“I don’t disagree, but the counter theory is that the yeshiva guy is often (not always) in a better environment”
It depends which Yeshiva. I’m not going to go into LH, which ones I think are Not up to par!
“I don’t disagree, but the counter theory is that the yeshiva guy is often (not always) in a better environment.”
DY +1
LU -“Health – most people who are learning don’t use Internet at all.”
IDK what’s going on in Israel, but I know what’s going on in Lakewood.
Even the guys that don’t have internet in their house, they go to the library or businesses that have rentals per hour for Internet usage!
Re WinnieThePooh’s post beginning “lesschumras, the OP asked for people’s opinions ….” Yes, the opening poster asked for opinions, and you have, perhaps rightly, assumed that he/she wanted uninformed opinion unrelated to actual facts. That may be acceptable at rallies for presidential candidates, but here at YWN, we want sound opinions based on facts tied together by logic and Torah.
Nevertheless, your assumption about the opening poster’s meaning is reasonable in that he/she started his/her post with an unsubstantiated fact, i.e., that the divorce rate in the “jewish” community are so high. I have read in many sources (sorry, I cannot name any) that the divorce rate in the frum community is lower than in the total Jewish community, and lower than the total American population.
I refrained from posting because I had no sources, but when you disparaged the YWN Coffee Roomers (rhymes with rumors) by suggesting that they do not expect facts, well … that’s all I could stands and I can’t stands no more.
Health, I was also talking about Lakewood. I lived there for seven years and got to know many people there. You obviously know different people than I do. I suggest you change your friends and acquaintances. There are so many wonderful Torahdik people in Lakewood there is no reason for you not to know them and to know the ones you know.
And yes, I actually used the computers in the library many times (I am practically the only person I know who does) so I know there are some Frum men there but it is very few and a very insignificant part of the Lakewood population.
Again, I suggest you change your acquaintances. There are hundreds of ehrliche B’nei Torah who don’t do anything but learn and have no idea how to use a computer. I suggest you get to know them.
LU -“Health, I was also talking about Lakewood. I lived there for seven years and got to know many people there. You obviously know different people than I do. I suggest you change your friends and acquaintances.”
Your perception is not accurate! Where do you buy those rose colored glasses?!?
7 years is a very short time.
And btw, I do know people who wouldn’t go near the internet, but it’s not the average!
“Your perception is not accurate! Where do you buy those rose colored glasses?!?”
I think you need a new set of glasses.
“And btw, I do know people who wouldn’t go near the internet, but it’s not the average!”
You obviously know the wrong people. Any time I needed to use the internet and the library was closed, I had the hardest time trying to find someone with internet. I remember having to call a friend in Brooklyn to look something up for me.
LU -“You obviously know the wrong people. Any time I needed to use the internet and the library was closed, I had the hardest time trying to find someone with internet.”
I know all kinds of people and I wouldn’t call anybody Frum from the wrong kind!
Also, that was probably a long time ago. Nowadays they have a place called Chemed and on the second floor there’s “Cubicles”.
This is just a room with computers attached to the Net.
If a guy made a business out of it, it isn’t just a few!
Btw, it’s not for Baal Habahtim, because they have internet in their house.
I used Cubicles, but it hasn’t been open so long, so I used the library before that. Even once it opened, there were times when I needed internet and it was closed so I had to go to the library.
I used Cubicles a lot, and there weren’t so many people there. I often had the room to myself and it rarely happened that there weren’t enough computers.
I don’t know who most of the men were there, but from conversations I overheard, I think some of them (if not all) were baalei batim who were there for work purposes.
They only opened it up for people who need it for purposes such as work. Their point was not to encourage people to use internet who would not be using it otherwise, so if they saw that it was mainly being used by Yeshiva bochurim, they would have closed it down. (actually I don’t think I ever saw any Yeshiva bocurim there except once when someone came with his sisters to sign up for HUD and he needed my help because he didn’t know much about computers).
In any case, their computers are very well filtered and they are not being used for anything inappropriate.
“I know all kinds of people and I wouldn’t call anybody Frum from the wrong kind!”
You made it sound like you know all these people who are doing all sorts of bad things on the internet. That’s what I made the comment in response to.
LU: Are you saying that every single Jewish man should not be working and that every single Jewish man should be learning, if he wants to keep on the derech and away from sakanah?
I don’t get it. If all men are studying then who supports them? Every single Jewish woman would be responsible for working to support the entire family. Every single mother and wife. No exceptions?
LB – not at all. I would never say such a thing. I was responding to a particular comment someone had made. I think it had to do with an implication that men who learn are more likely to use the Internet. I disagree with that; I think that in general, men who work are more likely to use the internet. And I think it’s ridiculous to imply that the Kollel system leads to more Internet use. But that doesn’t mean that no one should work.
LU: Okay sorry I def totally misunderstood you.
Thanks for the clarity 🙂
no problem. thanks for apologizing (not that there was a need for it – you’re very sweet). When it comes to the learning/working issue, while I may have some general opinions about priorities, my only definite opinion is that no one should be against either learning or working or people who learn or people who work. There are so many things to take into account, and everyone has to make his own decision. I would never say that no one should work or no one should learn.
LU -“I used Cubicles a lot, and there weren’t so many people there. I often had the room to myself and it rarely happened that there weren’t enough computers.”
Did you use it on top of Chemed or elsewhere?
huju- I think you are over-interpreting what I said and making assumptions as to my assumptions. I never meant to disparage anyone here or suggest that anyone was providing “uninformed opinion unrelated to actual facts.” Most people here present logical, well reasoned opinions based on their experiences, observations and also personal feelings. Yes, actual facts, based on what they have seen, what their neighbor has told them, what their relative experienced. That is different from hard statistics, large data sets. I think that when posters ask for others’ opinions, they want those non-professional insights from regular people (assuming that the “YWN Coffee Roomers” as you call them are “regular”). Not everyone can back up their opinions with statistics because they are not professionals, and do not have data on large populations at their fingerprints. I don’t think that only statisticians can give opinions, or that people’s comments have no value because they cannot tell you the percent of people who share that experience. What I am trying to say is that the CR is not a scholarly journal, but a conversation between interesting people.
LU -“You made it sound like you know all these people who are doing all sorts of bad things on the internet. That’s what I made the comment in response to.”
Next time – be Dan L’caf Zecus!
WTP, I mostly agree, and I do TRY in my own posts (thanks to DY pointing this out to me a long time ago) to distinguish between something that is my opinion (based on experience, education, assumption or even feeling) and something that I can assert as fact (based on evidence, statistical or otherwise).
In my opinion, in most cases, something backed up by evidence makes a stronger argument, particularly in the Coffee Room, than something that is not backed up by such, even if it challenges widespread assumptions.
Yichusdik- of course, but should we invalidate someone’s opinion because they don’t have the hard evidence to back it up? I think there is room here for all sorts of opinions, that is what makes it interesting- sometimes the more outlandish opinions make it even more interesting!
Health – my comment was based on some of the things you said. I don’t want to repeat them, so please look back on your comments and you will see what I was referring to. Thank you. But in any case, I’m glad to hear that that is not what you are saying now.
“CR is not a scholarly journal, but a conversation between interesting people. “
WinnieThePooh: I like this. Even when we provide facts and references, posts are subjective and conversational. For the most part.
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