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Abba_S:- Of-course I full well realize that you are referring to divorcing the mother. ?? ????? that a Father would ever part ways from his embryo.
BTW:- I am extensively involved in Gittin, and 2 guidelines we have been very clearly trained in, and taught in absolutely no uncertain terms:-
1) Never dispense a ?? until his wife = mother of their child[ren] {or still embryo} is allowing him his full entitlement & share of visitation=parenting time. If she chains away the children from their father, no problem chaining her, until she unchains the children.
2) Never ever beat up a man to dispense a ??. It is simply illegal, and will land one, into exceedingly serious trouble with the law. If a woman ever brings up the topic of having her husband beaten up for a ??, drop the case immediately, close up all files on the cases, and stay away from such a woman.
147:
I am also involved in quite a few cases. I am impressed with your erudite and more educated comments. Having opinions, I choose to weigh in, just a bit.
I note that there are fathers that voluntarily choose to abandon their children. This may not be common, but it does occur without any pressure or coercion. While these are exceptional, and likely involves factors that are unique, it probably becomes a mistake to insist that a father must maintain contact when he wishes none. Perhaps he is a candidate for therapy. But doing so would gum up the works, and prevent a get when two parties are both willing.
Next – the retaliatory chaining. Sounds appropriate, after all, fair is fair. However, you know that secular law does not consider the two connected, and withholding the children or the financial support as retaliation for the other’s violation is a crime. Neither does halacha sanction it. Beis Din certainly has the authority to coerce one side to cooperate, but as with everything else done by today’s batei din, they have no enforcement authority.
Full agreement about the beating issue. We watched this become front page news in the secular media. Halacha isn’t too fond of it either, regardless of what the advocacy organizations claim.
shebbesonian-“@Health
“A person shouldn’t buy fancy clothing, whether they can afford it or not!”
Strongly disagree. A person should buy fancy clothing, within their means, and wear it on Shabbos and Yom Tov.”
I obviously wasn’t talking when it’s a Mitzvah to buy things!
“All expenses have to be divided equally”
“I disagree again. Why should I spend more on myself just to make the expenses equal, when I am more than happy to make do with less and use the extra money to spend on my spouse and children?”
Again I was talking about – when both parties are in disagreement!
I suspect the incidence of adultery (in the civil sense, not in the halachic sense) is vastly higher among goyim than among frum Jews. That might partly explain the discrepancy in their divorce rates.
Abba – the information came from a Rav and he was very careful about he he phrased it in order not to be “oiver” on LH. His specific lashon was something like, “She claimed there was physical abuse and it was probably true (or “it seems it was true” – I don’t remember the precise lashon and in any case, it was in hebrew).”
My impression was that he was sure it was true (or he wouldn’t have said anything), but he was very careful to be accurate in how he phrased it since he had not actually witnessed it himself, obviously.
In terms of LH and the wife’s side, I was actually exceedingly impressed by them. Before I spoke to this Rav, I called the ex-wife’s sister who told me that as the ex-wife’s sister, she couldn’t tell me anything. She was very sweet and wished me hatzlacha at the end of the call. After I spoke to the Rav and found out what had happened, I was really impressed by the sister!
ps: it’s not motzi shem ra if you make it clear that you are not sure, there is a reason to give over the information, and all the other requiremets of toeles are fulfilled.
Iacrsmma: “LU: And the person suddenly became physically abusive while pregnant with #9?”
I don’t know. I didn’t ask for details. As soon as I heard he had been physically abusive, I stopped investigating.
LU -“When someone stops being Frum, I think it is usually because there was a problem in the marriage and not the other way around. I remember one time there was a guy I checked out whose wife had stopped being Frum when the marriage went bad. The wife was bt, and a friend of mine made a very good point – As a baalas teshuva, when her marriage failed, all she had left was her family of origin, so the natural thing for her to do was to go back to her family.”
I disagree! IDK who you’re talking about, but I know of a case almost the same. It might even be the same case – who knows?!?
The case I know about is that they had an average marriage and her friend(s) destroyed it. Then she went OTD!
The point is that e/o has a hard time finding out the truth!
One can never find out the truth, unless you dig under every stone!
Here’s another case:
“There was a guy who was redt to me whose wife divorced him while she was expecting her ninth kid. When I looked into it, I found out that he had been physically abusive. I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense, why else would someone get divorced while expecting their ninth?”
I know of a similar case, but it was only during the first pregnancy.
The woman wanted to hurt the baby in her stomach. Don’t ask me how.
Needless to say, he reacted with violence. They got divorced.
There’s so much lying when it comes to Shidduchim, it’s definitely a miracle that anybody gets married and is able to stay married!
“There’s so much lying when it comes to Shidduchim, it’s definitely a miracle that anybody gets married and is able to stay married!”
Anyone want to call LH here?
Iacrsmma: “And the person suddenly became physically abusive while pregnant with #9?”
Likely not. By #9 she couldn’t take it anymore and finally had the support/resources/koach to help herself and children. Maybe she didn’t want #9 to live through it.
Furthermore, abuse can escalate. The controlling behavior in early marriage can turn to harsher levels of abuse. Anything is possible and so common unfortunately that imho it’s alarming how much people are kept in the dark about it.
“I disagree! IDK who you’re talking about, but I know of a case almost the same. It might even be the same case – who knows?!?”
After I wrote it, I was actually wondering if it could have been you. From the way you responded, I guess it wasn’t. I have heard of several cases like this, and I’m sure there must be many that I haven’t heard of, so it’s probably not the case you heard of.
It’s true that you never know the truth. Personally, I think that is partially because there may not be a real “truth”. When you are dealing with relationships, things are usually not black-and-white, and it is possible for different people to look at it in different ways and they may all be right.
Most people are neither completely perfect or completely imperfect so in any conflict, there is generally some “fault” on both sides. But then again, you can also say that neither is really at fault, because maybe everyone is trying their best.
LB – both are good points. I think it was probably a combination of both. My impression at the time was that it was something that had only happened a few times, or maybe even once. It didn’t sound like he had been beating here every night for 20 years. My feeling at the time was that he had been verbally abusive for years, and eventually it led to his not being able to control himself and hitting her when they were having an argument and he lost his temper.
I really don’t know. That was just my impression based on what was said and the way it was said.
People today, their marriages are shallow
Because ,People today are, and want to be, shallow
Am going to shock everyone here[especially the younger crowd]!!
Many great ,wonderful , happy marriages in the past were abusive
And many abusive marriages were wonderful and happy !
@ It is Time for Truth
I strongly disagree with that today’s marriages are shallow. Projecting much?
Also I highly doubt that many abusive marriages were wonderful and happy. Maybe they were for the person doing the abuse. But for the person getting abused? Common do you really believe they are happy? Perhaps on the outside they seemed like they were happy but on the inside I bet they were dying.
A healthy relationship has no reason for it to be abusive. If it starts to be abusive then you know that it is not healthy.
Abusive is the opposite of healthy by definition.
“Abusive is the opposite of healthy by definition. “
Sometimes a “happy” relationship is associated as “healthy.”
IMHO, it helped to read Utah counter the argument that a “happy” marriage was also abusive. By explaining it as, “healthy,” it was easier to see how saying that an abusive marriage was happy. Abuse is not healthy. It doesn’t make someone feel happy either.
………That doesn’t mean that an abusive spouse did not have good qualities. Maybe there were some more pleasant moments, even happy ones, but that still doesn’t constitute as a “happy marriage.”
If someone thinks that abusive marriages were happy in the past, then maybe that person has no idea what it feels like and looks like to have a healthy, and truly happy relationship?
They do exist. Somewhere out there. Hashem helping.
Claims of abuse in my opinion are usually false. In today’s day an age anytime abuse is suspected the medical provider must report it and both social services and the police investigate the claim. If police are called and they see bruising in NYC and I think in most major cities, they are required to arrest the spouse even if the victim doesn’t want to press charges. Failure for the medical provider to report it can result in the loss of the medical provider’s license to practice. Likewise a Police Officer who fails to arrest an abuser can be lose his job.
Before you claim someone is abusive check whether in your jurisdiction, do medical providers have to report suspected abuse and if the police arrest the abusing spouse. If they do then unless you have seen these reports you are defaming them and probably guilty of Motzie Shem Ra.
The fact that you have a Heter to accept Loshon HoRa-Motzie Shem Ra this is so that you can avoid an abusive relationship but doesn’t allow you to tell anyone else. Telling someone else may result in you being guilty of Rachelos, Loshon HoRa or Motzie Shem Ra besides possibly embarrassing someone. Is it worth it?
Is saving a life worth it?
Abba-S -“Claims of abuse in my opinion are usually false”
I think that the other posters are referring to psychological abuse, not just physical abuse!
That’s where your confusion is.
I am not sure if It is Time for Truth meant his words literally.
Perhaps he meant that in the past, certain behaviors and relationships that we would now consider abusive were considered normal and so people were happy. To give an example, an authoritarian husband who orders everyone around, with a wife who fulfills every whim of his without ever being able to consider her own needs- today this would not be considered healthy, but was probably common 2-3 generations ago when gender roles and behaviors were very different. And as long as the husband was frum, and provided for his family, the wife was “happy”.
Abba-S -“Claims of abuse in my opinion are usually false”
Health: “I think that the other posters are referring to psychological abuse, not just physical abuse!
That’s where your confusion is.”
+1.
Abba: “The fact that you have a Heter to accept Loshon HoRa-Motzie Shem Ra this is so that you can avoid an abusive relationship but doesn’t allow you to tell anyone else. Telling someone else may result in you being guilty of Rachelos, Loshon HoRa or Motzie Shem Ra besides possibly embarrassing someone.”
+1. Also, even for yourself, you are supposed to not really believe it as fact even while you act on it. I have no idea how this is possible, but it is the halacha, so it must be possible. I only hope to be able to reach that level one day.
In today’s standards letting things pass and being a ???? is shunned on and considered being abused. This applies to both spouses. So thanks to all the posters who infer that the Torah’s moral concepts are old-fashioned. It seems like many of you opt for the easy way out, and rather than work on your middos to benefit yourself and the family, you claim to be doing the ‘healthy’ thing and defend your ‘abused ego’ while absorbing the cost of destroying your families (very selfish).
I will agree that there are rare cases when a spouse is a real jerk, but that is not the most usual case.
Enough Divorces: It is true that there are cases in which people could work things out, work on their middos, etc but there are also cases in which there was nothing to do, and divorce was the right solution.Do most cases fall in the first category or the second category? I’m not sure how anyone can know the answer to that question. Each case is different, and most of the time, most people do not have enough facts to be able to judge what should have been done. There are way too many factors, and most people really do not know any of them.
On an individual level, if you know someone who is divorced, your obligation is to be “dan l’kaf zchus” (judge favorably) and assume they did the right thing (especially since you really have no way of knowing).
It is not against the Torah to say that there are good reasons to get divorced other than physical abuse. There was a Tanna or an Amora who got divorced just because his wife wasn’t nice to him. We are not Catholics – we do believe that people can get divorced. The fact that the Rabbanim will often tell people to get divorced proves that it is not against the Torah to do so.
As a community, we have to do what we can to prevent these situation from arising in the first place. Whether it is true or not that most divorces could have been prevented at the point at which they happen, it certainly is true that there are many things that can be done ahead of time to lower the divorce rate.
For example:
a) people should be taught how to recognize signs of abuse before they start dating.
b) people should be taught how to deal with conflict.
c) people should be taught communication and relationship skills.
d) Courses on these topics should be taught in high school and seminary.
e) Chasson and Kallah teachers should be trained in these areas.
f) Before people get married, they should be told about some of the issues that may come up in marriage and what to do about them.
g) There should be people available whom chosson and kallahs can turn to for advice and support during Shana Rishona.
No matter what is done, there will always be divorces and there will always be people who should get divorced until Mashiach comes, but there are preemptive measures that can be taken to lower the divorce rate. And that should be what we are working on as a community (and I think it is being done).
“It seems like many of you opt for the easy way out, and rather than work on your middos to benefit yourself and the family, you claim to be doing the ‘healthy’ thing and defend your ‘abused ego’ while absorbing the cost of destroying your families (very selfish).”
It is not at all clear that it is better for the kids to stay together. It may actually be worse. It is impossible to do a valid study on this since the only way the study could be valid is if you compared the SAME family making both choices, and obviously that is impossible to do.
Comparing the kids in families in which the parents chose to get divorced and those in which they didn’t completely invalidates the study since the couples who choose to get divorced usually have way more problems than those who didn’t, and if the kids were messed up, it might be because of the problems that were there before the divorce and not because of the divorce itself. And maybe, the kids in those families would have been worse off if the parents hadn’t gotten divorced.
From personal experience, my parents’ divorce did not mess us up, and every single one of my siblings got married and had a happy marriage.
LU -“a) people should be taught how to recognize signs of abuse before they start dating.”
OK.
“b) people should be taught how to deal with conflict.
c) people should be taught communication and relationship skills.
d) Courses on these topics should be taught in high school and seminary.”
They should. Who’s gonna implement this?!?
E/O thinks that they’re already perfect!
“e) Chasson and Kallah teachers should be trained in these areas”
I don’t think any of these types of teachers will take on more responsibility!
“From personal experience, my parents’ divorce did not mess us up, and every single one of my siblings got married and had a happy marriage.”
I thought you are single.
Health – I am not my own sibling, lol.
Health………….
LU can NOT be her own sibling. She stated that every one of her siblings got married. Not that all per parents children got married.
“E/O thinks that they’re already perfect!”
Teenage girls don’t think they are perfect. I don’t know about boys, but if they had courses like this, they would realize they are not.
“They should. Who’s gonna implement this?!?”
They already started doing it in girls’ schools. That is where I got the idea from. I don’t know if they do it for boys schools, and I don’t know if they do it in all girls’ schools. I am also not sure what they teach and if they teach all of the things I mentioned or not.
But people are starting to implement it, and hopefully more will be done.
LU -“Teenage girls don’t think they are perfect.”
LOL! I wasn’t talking about kids, but those that run the schools, whether Yeshivos or Bais Yaakovs.
Furthermore ,there were many marriages in the past that [we would call] abusive that were not so happy, but raised wonderful children and have wonderful descendants
Furthermore, In every glorious community,kehilla,country ,empire
that people look back nostalgically, there were were many who were stepped on and were abusive to some.
Froth all you wish ,but it was through those means that greater glory was gained for all
Ponder please this also
Which books-
for women ,
are some of the hottest bestsellers in recent years?
Those which females are being abused?!
And women seem to be unable to get enough!
“Ponder please this also Which books-
for women, are some of the hottest bestsellers in recent years?”
I have no idea what you are talking about, since people in my circles don’t read such trash. So what you are saying does not apply to the Frum world (or at least the segments to which I affiliate).
Also, it doesn’t mean that they think it’s good for women to be abused. If someone likes reading murder mysteries, does that mean that they think murder is good?
“Furthermore ,there were many marriages in the past that [we would call] abusive that were not so happy, but raised wonderful children and have wonderful descendants”
Maybe so, but in today’s age, children raised in abusive marriages have a high probability to go on to be abusive or abused themselves. I’d say better to break the cycle and find a different way to raise wonderful children and wonderful descendants.
“it was through those means that greater glory was gained for all “
Not a Torah concept!
I dont have the patience to read through all the previous posts but will make the obvious point anyway: couples are getting married too quickly, barely knowing the people they marry. Scary thought that a couple dates 4,5,6 times and make a lifelong decision. How many stories have there been of a couple who knew on the wedding night that they made a mistake? Such pressure to get married, fear if they don’t accept a proposal they won’t get another chance, and the prevalence of divorces making it more acceptable all contribute.
Flatbusher – In order to be able to say that there is any truth to your statements, one would have to know the following:
1. Did most people who got divorced only date a few times?
2. Were there things they would have found out if they had gone out longer?
3. Are these things that they could have found out if they had done more checking?
I find it hard to say that going out a few times is inherently a problem since so many people do things that way and it works out great. However, it is not for everyone, and it is possible that there are individuals who are doing it or being pressurred to do it who shouldn’t be.
I think it’s a very individual thing. Everyone has to know himself, no one should pressure anyone else, and if someone has a real concern that someone they know is being pressurred they should try to say something.
But I think it is difficult to make black-and-white statements about these things, in either direction. Just like it bothers me when people are criticized for taking too long, I’m not sure that people should be criticized for doing things quickly.
I would be curious to know statistically speaking if there is any truth to this. Looking at American society as a whole, it is certainly not true. Adraba, the Frum community as far fewer divorces even though (or because) we date far fewer times before getting engaged.
Health: “I think that the other posters are referring to psychological abuse, not just physical abuse!
That’s where your confusion is.”
I grew up when most of the men had numbers on their arm, they were abused. Having someone speak to you disrespectful is not abuse. If you realize that you are a Holy Jewish Soul and Hashem will judge them in the next world, it shouldn’t bother you. In fact the Talmud says that there are three types of people who will not have to go to Guhenum (hell) one of which is one who had an evil wife. This would apply also to one who had an evil husband. So is divorce worth it, having the verbal tantrum which are usually for just a few minutes or going through hell for 24 hours a day for six days a week for 11 months. The choice is yours.
IITFTT:
“Am going to shock everyone here[especially the younger crowd]!!
Many great ,wonderful , happy marriages in the past were abusive
And many abusive marriages were wonderful and happy !”
“Furthermore ,there were many marriages in the past that [we would call] abusive that were not so happy, but raised wonderful children and have wonderful descendants”
“Froth all you wish ,but it was through those means that greater glory was gained for all”
“Ponder please this also
Which books-
for women ,
are some of the hottest bestsellers in recent years?
Those which females are being abused?!
And women seem to be unable to get enough!”
You are a very dangerous person. I hope other people see this too. Please stop posting this horrible stuff.
Abba-S -“I grew up when most of the men had numbers on their arm, they were abused”
Again you’re confused! I was talking about the other posters, not me!
Nowadays, whether you have a point or not, they consider verbal denigration as abuse!
A person has to live in the here & now.
There are many types of abuse – physical abuse is only one. You can’t invalidate someone’s suffering by saying that there are worse forms of suffering. It’s also generally not fair to compare one person’s suffering to another, even if seems “obvious” that one person’s suffering is greater. In any case, even if one is worse than the other, it doesn’t mean the second one is not suffering.
Verbal and emotional abuse are considered valid reasons to get divorced according to the Torah. Going through gehinom in this world only saves you from gehinom in the next world if you didn’t choose the gehinom. You can’t deliberately choose to marry someone abusive and then claim that you should get out of gehinom as a result. It was your choice and it was a bad one; according to Rav Yitzchak Berkowitz, you may even be punished as a result, because of what you are doing to your kids.
Likewise, if you accidentally ended up with an abusive spouse, and the Rabbanim and your seichel tell you that you should get divorced and you choose not to, you will not be rewarded in the next world – you may even be punished for not doing what you should have done and for the effect it had on your kids.
However, in a situation in which you did not choose to marry the abusive person, and it is either impossible to get divorced or for whatever reason, the Rabbanim tell you that in your case you should not get divorced, then Abba is right. But the general rule is that one is not allowed to choose to go through gehinnom in this world, and if you do, you will not be rewarded for it, and you may even be punished.
+1 lilmod ulelamaid for EVERYTHING that you said today!!!
“But the general rule is that one is not allowed to choose to go through gehinnom in this world, and if you do, you will not be rewarded for it, and you may even be punished. “
~Wow, you put it so well! Thank you for explaining.
Also, this reminds me of a shiur that I heard where the rabbi said that we are not supposed to rely on miracles (well-known).
What was new (and maybe less well-known) is that if Hashem does give us a miracle (like miraculously turning an spouse who abuses into a mentch without that spouse doing intensive self-work over a long period of time), there will be a physical or spiritual consequence on the person who is experiencing the miracle.
If Hashem has to alter nature for someone to such an extent, then that person will become weaker for a certain amount of time, and/or in a different way.
That’s why rabbis at times have to be careful about their brachot, since giving someone a big brachah can take its toll on the rabbi.
LB- thanks! It’s nice to know that somebody actually reads my long posts!
In terms of the changing nature thing, I would think that if it is a result of your davening, it would be fine. Because then, it is not coming from nowhere – it is coming from the fact that you raised your level by davening so now you deserve more than you did before. You never lose out by davening (except if you daven to marry a specific person, and maybe there are other examples like that, but most of the time, you don’t lose out by davening).
Also, LB, did the Rabbi give that example or was that your own example? Because I don’t think that is what the Rabbi meant by changing nature. I have heard of such a concept but it was talking about out-right miracles. I never heard that something like this would be a problem.
I think Person1 has a point. All these posts from several posters about how abuse is not abuse if it’s not physical and how people should stay in bad marriages, etc, can be kind of dangerous.
I met someone who told me that before she got divorced she was very judgmental of people who got divorced. It is very easy to be judgmental of people who get divorced. You don’t know the situation, and you don’t know their cheshbonos – cut them some slack.
Of course, no one should get divorced too easily, and most people don’t. Perhaps, there are people who don’t know how to get the help they need, so point them in the right direction – but, please stop with all the judgmental speeches about what other people should be able to deal with, etc. I think it does more harm than good,imho.
That example no. I said it to relate to this thread. I think he mentioned refuahs where there was really like no chance otherwise.
Oh oh oh!! And that if you’be had a lot of miracles it comes from your Olam Habah bank. So the more miracles here the less the cheshbon in Olam Habah.
When I heard that I realized that while I am soOoo lucky and blessed and have had so many miracles, I had no clue that I might be using up all my merits. It made me wonder how much I should ask for in this world. Maybe it’s better to scale back on my requests and prayers. Though I still pray for my will to be Hashem’s Will and for complete emuna.
My parents divorce was the best thing for me. The daily one-sided screaming and anger stalled. Finally quiet. Finally seeing my parent regain strength. My parents fought for me. I’m so blessed that the custody people heard me out and sided with the non-screaming parent. It was the first step in knowing that there was a way to a better place.
In part, because my parents stayed so long in that situation, that dynamic became normal looking to me. So with therapy, I have come to see similar patterns in friendships and relationships that aren’t healthy. I don’t want to be yelled at.
Besides the parents, children’s personalities are affected. They take on roles. Some become perfect and untouchable, seeking external validation. Others become like caretakers to the abused parent. Still others side with the abuser and blame the abused parent. This is real stuff. Look it up.
Google the affects of abuse on children. The roles that children play. Some take responsibility for the abuser, trying to make it their job to make things okay. I used to always apologize about my parent’s behavior. If something happens even now I find myself apologizing to strangers. That spills over in other places. I have to be mindful. Rewriting the past.
Better for children to see parents overcoming despite divorce than drowning in a hopeless marriage. With my parents there was no room for making it work. It didn’t work from the start and the love was based on conditonal expectations.
Surely my story isn’t unique
Oops rewind please: I pray that Hashem’s Will is my will.
The way that I said it sounded backwards. Thanks!
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