- This topic has 254 replies, 39 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 10 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Why is the divorce rate in the jewish community so high? & why has it gotten this high just recently in the past 10 years alone?
What is your opinion & reason? what do you think?
There are many reasons but one of the top reasons is because in the spoiled generation we are living in today, many husbands treat their spouses as servants & not like wives like they should be respected
Maybe it’s because in general, people have so many more emotional and relationship problems nowadays.
I would imagine that for those who have grown up in the technological generation, knowing how to communicate has probably gotten much more complicated.
Also, exposure to secular influences such as movies can definitely be terrible for a marriage.
I don’t know what the problems are in most cases – those are just some possibilities.
One interesting fact that I have observed. When I look around me at people I know who are happily married and those who are not, often there does not seem to be any correlation between how good someone’s marriage is and how “deserving” you would think the person is of a good marriage based on their middos and emotional health.
My impression is that being happily married is a skill, and there are certain things you have to know. Some people learn these things from observing their parents or other role models, some people learn them from a good Chosson or Kallah teacher, and some never learn them. I think there are people who don’t have good relationships with other people and/or may not be such good people, but they know what it takes to make sure they have a good relationship with their spouse.
Alot of issues that were overlooked in the past are now not tolerated.
Women who were abused physically or mentally just took it in the past because they had no way out, today its not tolerated
MA -“because in the spoiled generation we are living in today, many husbands treat their spouses as servants & not like wives like they should be respected”
Because in the spoiled generation we are living in today, many wives treat their spouses as servants & not like husbands – like they should be respected!
ZD- there is definitely truth to that, but at this point, divorce has become so common, I think it is hard to say that that is the only reason.
Also, I know of a lot of cases in which that was not the case.
ZD is right, but another main reason is that the stigma of getting a divorce has gone down. In the past, people would stay together even if things weren’t good because they were afraid of what their neighbors and community members would think.
This might be similar to what ZD is saying, but I think in the past, since divorce wasn’t common, it wasn’t considered an option.
People who had marriage problem either learned to fix them or learned to deal with them.
It’s much more difficult to work out a solution to a problem if you know there is an alternative solution which is much simpler and equally acceptable.
I think what ZD is saying is somewhat different from what you are saying, Meno, even though it sounds the same. Both of you are saying that there are more divorces today as a result of the fact that it has become easier to get divorced.
However, the difference is that ZD is saying that the marriages are the same nowadays, and these are the types of people who really should have gotten divorced in the olden days but didn’t. In other words, the high divorce rate is a positive sign, since it means that people who are being abused now have a way out.
But Meno is saying that there are people who would have been fine before and now have problems, so the high divorce rate is a bad thing.
I think there is truth to both. When divorce first started becoming more acceptable, most divorces were probably because of ZD’s reasoning. But now that the numbers seem to be getting out-of-hand, it is more likely that there are many cases like what Meno’s saying or for the kinds of reasons I gave.
Although, I do find it hard to believe that anyone finds it so easy to get divorced, unless they don’t have kids yet or maybe have one or two.
I would think the main reason for the high divorce rate is that people have more issues today or don’t know how to work things out, but not that they think that divorce is so easy. But I could be wrong. You probably know more about it than I do now, Meno, because your wife is a marriage therapist.
Because the Jewish community has normalized it. Also, marriage counselors wouldnt have jobs if everyone was happily married… let’s be honest.
And of course, we live in an Era when people in general don’t have to be responsible for their actions; so, divorce is a way out for some. There are many reasons.
It is definitely not just cuz of abuse which I think can be a normal reason for a divorce. Sadly I hear about so many divorces for reasons that could totally be worked on and figured out. Many people in this generation have become spoiled and think divorce is not a big deal instead of trying to work out their differences. Divorce should only be done in very limited cases.
There are numerous reasons starting with the shidduch process itself. We expect two people who barely know each other make a decision in 3-4 weeks after meeting less than 10 times; get engaged and barely talk/see each other during the engagement period and then get married and expect everything to work. In the 1960’s and 1970’s people dated (courted?) for a number of months before they even thought of getting engaged.
In addition, we live in a society where we don’t allow our children to experience adversity and build a coping mechanism to deal with it. They come into marriage and don’t know how to deal with the slightest test and immediately give up.
“Although, I do find it hard to believe that anyone finds it so easy to get divorced, unless they don’t have kids yet or maybe have one or two.”
I should’ve clarified. I didn’t mean divorce is a simple solution in the sense that all problems will miraculously disappear. I meant that it’s simple in the sense that you just “pull the trigger” and then it’s done, you don’t have to put any work or effort into it. Granted, the problems that come afterwards might be worse than the original problems.
“marriage counselors wouldnt have jobs if everyone was happily married”
I hate when people say stuff like this. I’ve even heard big Rabbonim say stuff like this.
It gets me so worked up I don’t even know where to start.
People werent nessasarily happily married in the olden days either
Another factor is people are living longer. The average lifespan until about 1900 was 43. Most people live past that. meaning there is more time to get divroced (You would be surprised how many people married 20 years or more get divorced)
I think that perhaps those who have experienced it have a good insight into it – from their personal perspective, but that is certainly of more significant value than rank speculation.
Though my experience was different than Health’s experience, and maybe we drew different conclusions, I respect his perspective on this, as he has the benefit of experience, as, unfortunately, I do. (Though I can’t say completely unfortunately. I have wonderful kids from my first marriage, and without the experience and personal growth I undertook after my divorce, I wouldn’t have met or had the tools, humility, and commitment that I brought to my relationship with my new Kallah.)
I don’t agree that people dafka give up because its now more socially acceptable. Plenty of people try for years to make it work, seek guidance from their Rav, seek therapy, and make positive change in their lives. It doesn’t always work.
To answer the OP, In my experience and that of peers who have also gone through divorce, the key element that was critical that led to almost all other problems was communication. Was it respectful or antagonistic? Was it constructive or destructive? Were all issues aired or was one party not communicating important or critical matters to the other with honesty and clarity? Was one dictating and expecting immediate acceptance? Was the other holding in things that ought to have been aired rather than fester? Were responsibilities clearly communicated to each other? Were both as parents on the same page and a united front when it came to dealing with the kids? Did they have each other’s backs when they were among others?
A secondary element related to communication is expectation. If expectations aren’t clearly communicated at the outset, someone will become disappointed and disillusioned very quickly. And even more important, if one spouse has an expectation that through their efforts the other will change without the other undertaking that responsibility for change for themselves, they will be disappointed.
As a family law attorney for some 35+ years I can say that the rise of divorce in the Jewish community has mirrored the Gentile community, but lagging by about 5 years.
I believe the OP meant to ask about the Hareidi community, not the Jewish Community as a whole. They have lagged the rest of the Jewish community by about 15 years.
The stigma of a divorce in the family no longer means inability for the children of siblings to make a shidduch, although it still takes effort and searching.
One reason that women, who previously would not have considered divorce are seeking it is that there is mandated reporting by health and other professional who suspect physical and other abuse in patients’ lives.
Once this is reported the social service system takes told, frum women are exposed to the mental health system. They are told that they are victims who must extricate themselves from horrible and possibly deadly situations.
Years ago, a frum doctor seeing a frum wife with a black eye or fracture might have called the husband in and read him the riot act, or notified the Rav to get involved. Today with Hipaa laws in place and mandated reporting, the doctor can’t make these calls, but may have to notify the local police precinct.
Thus, the secular system is interjected into the frum community and divorce rates rise.
Meno, I understood what you meant. What I meant is that I always thought (but I could be wrong) that making the decision to get divorced as well as actually going through with it are very difficult things to do for most people, on an emotional level. Actually, I shouldn’t say people, since I am really just thinking of women.
I know on a personal level, I have such a difficult time dropping friendships even when I know they should be dropped. Which obviously doesn’t begin to compare. I just think that since women tend to be emotional and are supposed to be better “connectors” than men are, that it would be really difficult to make the decision to break off the connection with someone with whom you are so connected whether or not you want to be.
Even in an abuse situation, there are psychological reasons why it may be even more difficult to “unattach” yourself enough to be able to get divorced.
I know people, both men and women, who had horrible marriages but didn’t get divorced for 14-20+ years because it was such a hard thing to do.
In addition to the fact that it is very hard emotionally to break the connection from someone whom you are so connected to, you also have to take into account the fact that the spouse may not want to get divorced, so then the one who wants to get divorced feels very guilty about it and is reluctant to do so in addition to the fact that they have to convince them.
Additionally, anyone who has kids is going to feel very guilty about doing this to their kids and will worry about the effects on the kids. And they may be terrified about how they will manage financially. If the wife was home with the kids while her husband supported her, now she has to find a way to support the kids. Or maybe the husband was in Kollel, and now he will have to find a way to pay child support. Whatever the situation, finances always become very complicated in a divorce.
And the idea of having to manage on one’s own is always very scary, even in those situations in which the other spouse wasn’t really there anyhow.
And, in addition, even though divorce has become very common, I would imagine that there still is a certain amount of stigma and embarrassment.
I just see that there are a lot of people who stay in bad marriages for many years. However, I am talking about people my age and older. Maybe in this generation, it really has become different. But, I am sure that many of the things I wrote still apply.
Yichusdik – thank you for your insights as someone who actually knows something about the topic from first-hand experience. It was enlightening to hear your perspective.
It seems like you are saying that the main factor is communication skills. That makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you for sharing.
“There are numerous reasons starting with the shidduch process itself. We expect two people who barely know each other make a decision in 3-4 weeks after meeting less than 10 times; get engaged and barely talk/see each other during the engagement period and then get married and expect everything to work.”
I don’t think it’s fair to blame it on that. So many people only meet a few times beforehand and have great marriages. And many people know each other for a while or didn’t meet through the Shidduch system and end up divorced.
I see no correlation between how long people go out and how well their marriages turn out. Actually, I do see a correlation. I think that people who go out shorter are more likely to have better marriages.
People should go out for the amount of time that works for them and not be judgmental of those who do things differently. There is no right amount of time. It has to do with the individual as well as the community the person is coming from.
Lu, you keep justifying your opinions by using the ambiguous “many people”. How many is many and please cite use actual stats ( and cite your sources ) to support your claims
edited
People also probably have different expectations for marriage nowadays. After the Holocaust, a lot of people were just looking for someone Jewish and frum to settle down with and have a family. Whether they actually liked the person wasn’t as big of a consideration. The main goal was to have a Jewish family. These days, that concept isn’t enough. People want to enjoy being married.
Why is the divorce rate in the jewish community so high? & why has it gotten this high just recently in the past 10 years alone?
Does anybody actually know what the divorce statistics in the frum community are, and how they’ve changed over the past ten years? Personally, I suspect that there has been more of an increase in the focus on divorces than there have been in actual divorces. (Same with shidduch/OTD crises, btw.)
iacisrmma:
There are numerous reasons starting with the shidduch process itself. We expect two people who barely know each other make a decision in 3-4 weeks after meeting less than 10 times; get engaged and barely talk/see each other during the engagement period and then get married and expect everything to work.
LOL. While I don’t know what the exact divorce rate is in the frum community, I am willing to bet that it is a tiny fraction of what goes on in the culture around us where courtships do stretch out for months or years. From the American Psychological Association: “about 40 to 50 percent of married couples in the United States divorce. The divorce rate for subsequent marriages is even higher.”
LU and MW13: OP asked for our opinions. I am entitled to mine. You don’t have to agree. That’s why it’s only an opinion. I have firsthand knowledge of 5 divorces that took place within months of the chasunah; all in the last 12 months.
+1
MW13 is spot on. How can we say divorce is too high when no one states or even estimates what the divorce rate is? From personal expereince, I believe the divorce rate in the frum community is around 5-6%.
“I am entitled to mine”
So are we.
Thank you for responding to our opinions by telling us what your opinion is based on. It is helpful to know where it is coming from.
It is possible that there have been specific cases in which people got married too soon and if they had gone out longer would have realized there were problems. I wasn’t arguing that that can happen. (Although, even in those cases, I am wondering if you have reason to believe that if they had gone out longer, it would have made a difference. And is it possible that better checking have produced the same results?)
What I am arguing with is stating that as a general rule. I know way too many people who went out less than 10 times and are very happily married, so I do not feel that it is right to knock a system that works well for many communities and individuals, even if it doesn’t work for everyone.
The percentages of divorce are statistically higher in communities in which people date for longer. The goyish world has many more divorces than the Frum world does. Within the Frum world, my impression is that the more insulated societies have less divorces and those are the ones that generally date less. So I find it hard to make a correlation as a general rule although there may be individual cases in which it would have helped to have gone out more.
Bottom line: everyone has to know himself and know what is best for him. For many people and communities, going out less than 10 times works. For others it doesn’t. Do what’s right for you.
“MW13 is spot on. How can we say divorce is too high when no one states or even estimates what the divorce rate is? From personal expereince, I believe the divorce rate in the frum community is around 5-6%.”
I wonder what the rate is. It would be hard to do an accurate statistic, because how would you figure it out? The numbers are probably very different for people who are currently in their 40’s or older and people who are in the 20’s.
Also, within the Frum community, there are so many communities, and the numbers may be very different within different communities.
5-6% sounds really high. I don’t think that is true of the people I know personally.
Whoa. I found 5-6% to be the understatement of the year. Wishful thinking.
Are you talking about Gets or civil divorces? Because we know that those number are quite different given that, ahem, yea, sometimes one party asserts spiritual control on that end.
Conveniently that helps boost the statistical facade that everything is Aleph-okay ba’bayeet. Again, just my opinion.
“Whoa. I found 5-6% to be the understatement of the year. Wishful thinking.”
Whoa, and I thought it sounded high! Guess it depends on the community and/or who you know.
“Are you talking about Gets or civil divorces? Because we know that those number are quite different given that, ahem, yea, sometimes one party asserts spiritual control on that end.”
How many cases do you know like that? B”H, I don’t think I know of any.
“Conveniently that helps boost the statistical facade that everything is Aleph-okay ba’bayeet. Again, just my opinion.”
If someone has a civil divorce, I’m sure they would be included in the statistic.
In the Chareidi community I would estimate the divorce rate is about 1-2%, r’l.
Within the Chareidi community, there are many communities and types. It seems to me that the rate amongst baalei teshuva is much higher. But I could be wrong; I am just going by the people I know. Also, the rate amongst Americans is probably much higher than by Israelis.
1-2% for the Chareidi community sounds about right to me.
MA -“more money then they could afford for more fancy clothing?”
A person shouldn’t buy fancy clothing, whether they can afford it or not!
IDK, if you’re married or not, but the implication is that she’s asking her husband for money for clothing. All expenses have to be divided equally, after that they can split up the extra money whether it’s for her to buy fancy stuff or for him to buy golf clubs! (I actually am not into golf.)
When comparing the Frum divorce rate to the non-Jewish rate it’s minuscule. Over 50% of non Jewish marriages end in divorce. This doesn’t take into consideration the thousands of couples that don’t even get married.
As to why the divorce rate is increasing this is due to the fact we are accustom to instant gratification and when we don’t get it we discard the item. I get to see a lot of Shidduch resumes and see a trend of couples getting divorced during pregnancy. These children will grow up never really having a relationship with their father. While there is a requirement for driver education there is no requirement for marriage education. The only education given is in regard to ritual (family) purity with no training on conflict resolution.
see a trend of couples getting divorced during pregnancy This is called ??? ??? ?? ????? for which no [even secular] divorce agreement can be written up before baby is born, & hence no divorce can be finalized prior to birth of baby, and hence no ?? should be dispensed prior to birth of baby, and then only when father receiving full fledged visitation=parenting arrangements.
Religous level differences might be a reason too. People who lie to others andor themselves about their religous level before getting married, or people who simply change at some point in life.
I don’t know how common it is but I know it exists.
“A person shouldn’t buy fancy clothing, whether they can afford it or not!”
Strongly disagree. A person should buy fancy clothing, within their means, and wear it on Shabbos and Yom Tov.
“All expenses have to be divided equally”
I disagree again. Why should I spend more on myself just to make the expenses equal, when I am more than happy to make do with less and use the extra money to spend on my spouse and children?
And to connect it with the thread, spending less on yourself and more on your spouse, whether that is money spending, or time spending or focus spending, will reduce the likelihood of divorce in the long run.
Signed,
A happily married husband with children
lilmod—If there is abuse because of emotional issues in the marriage then that changes everything, no skills can help things..and btw men arent the only ones who abuse. Women can be just as abusive, it can be the other way around
nyc112: “Women can be just as abusive, it can be the other way around”
That is definitely true. I never thought otherwise. If there was something I wrote that seemed to imply otherwise, that was not how I meant it. I definitely have heard of cases like that.
“If there is abuse because of emotional issues in the marriage then that changes everything, no skills can help things”
I’m not sure about that. It may depend on how you define abuse. Abuse is a broad term. I know people who had bad marriages the first time around because they were abusive, but then had good second marriages because they worked on themselves meanwhile.
Also, I’ve known people who were abusive to some people but not to their spouse. There are many people in the world who are abusive to some people but know how to be nice to others. Sometimes, that is the reason that the first marriage doesn’t work but the second one does.
Also, whether or not someone can be considered abusive sometimes has to do with the way the second person deals with it. Someone who is more sensitive may consider something abuse that someone else won’t or will know how to deal with.
Of course, if you are talking about serious deliberate malicious abuse or physical abuse, that is another story. But to my knowledge, that is not the cause for most divorces in the Frum world.
“Religous level differences might be a reason too. People who lie to others andor themselves about their religous level before getting married, or people who simply change at some point in life.
I don’t know how common it is but I know it exists.”
When I check out divorces for shidduchim, I often hear of cases like this. Sometimes, it is a matter of the wife “going off the derech” (of course it can happen the other way, but I obviously I don’t get redt those shidduchim), and sometimes it is a matter of one being (or becoming) more modern than the other or one being more into chumras.
However, personally, I think that in most of these cases, the failure of the marriage is probably not to blame on the religious issues. First of all, if they had a healthy, happy marriage and they were both emotionally stable people, it is highly unlikely that one of them would stop being Frum. These things don’t happen out of nowhere.
Even if someone started having religious issues (which again, I don’t think can happen out of nowhere), if they were really committed to each other and to their marriage, they would probably find a way to deal with it.
When someone stops being Frum, I think it is usually because there was a problem in the marriage and not the other way around. I remember one time there was a guy I checked out whose wife had stopped being Frum when the marriage went bad. The wife was bt, and a friend of mine made a very good point – As a baalas teshuva, when her marriage failed, all she had left was her family of origin, so the natural thing for her to do was to go back to her family.
Once a guy was suggested to me whose first wife had had a lot of problems. I was told that after the divorce, he had a tekufa where he was not so Frum. I was told that he was not to blame since it was a result of the gehinnom he had gone through in his marriage.
The next time that a divorced guy was suggested to me, I was told that the divorce was not his fault – it was because his wife stopped being Frum. I was like, wait a second, when he stops being Frum it’s his wife’s fault, but when she stops being Frum it’s her fault. Maybe she stopped being Frum because of the way HE treated her.
I’m not saying it’s always that way, and I’m not saying that the other spouse is to blame when their spouse stops being Frum or becomes less Frum. I am just saying that I think that in many cases, that was not really the real reason for the divorce.
“I get to see a lot of Shidduch resumes and see a trend of couples getting divorced during pregnancy.”
There was a guy who was redt to me whose wife divorced him while she was expecting her ninth kid. When I looked into it, I found out that he had been physically abusive. I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense, why else would someone get divorced while expecting their ninth?
LU: And the person suddenly became physically abusive while pregnant with #9?
One trend that I have noticed that since the frum population has B”H grown so much, problems that once involved a few people, now involve so many more, just because the numbers have increased, but not necessarily the percentages. Does anyone actually know if the divorce rate (% of marriages) has actually gone up, or just the number of divorces, proportional to the population? Say the 5% number thrown out here is correct, 5% of the frum population in the US in the 1970s works out to be far fewer people than 5% of the frum population of the 21st century. I think this is one reason that so many issues have become crises- because the number of people being affected is staggering, not necessarily because things have changed.
If my very non-statistically significant experience counts for anything, among the parents of my classmates, friends, extended family members, or my parents’ friends (ie the generation above mine), I can think of 7 who were divorced or involved in blended families (the parents themselves were married, but had been previously divorced) when I was growing up. A few (3-4) more divorced after their kids were grown and married. Among my generation of friends, former classmates, extended family members, I can think of about 11 who are divorced, most right away, a few after several years of marriage and several kids, and a few more recently after long marriages. Of these, 6 I know stemmed from either serious emotional issues or abusive behavior in one spouse. From the next generation, the oldest kids are only starting to get married and B”H I have not heard of any divorces among these. So not a huge difference between the 2 generations. But this is purely anecdotal and represents a very small sample size, and does not cover those married within the last 5-10 years.
Places like OHEL may keep these types of statistics. I remember reading that there was a 30% divorce rate in the Jewish Population (not just the “frum” velt).
I find this thread amis ng. Everyone is is making assertions, claims and statements, during percentages, without a shred of value statistical evedudence or documentation
lesschumras, the OP asked for people’s opinions, and they are giving it. If he wanted a statistical study and documentation, he would have turned to other sources of information. Yes, “real” data would be enlightening to this thread, but most common people – and I am assuming that this includes most of us here on the CR, (except maybe CharlieHall who has been established to be MIA on another thread) do not have statistical evidence at their fingertips, just knowledge about regular people that they know.
147- You do realize I was referring to the mother not the embryo.
lilmod ulelamaid – There was a guy who was redt to me whose wife divorced him while she was expecting her ninth kid. When I looked into it, I found out that he had been physically abusive. I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense, why else would someone get divorced while expecting their ninth?
I was referring to girls in the low twenties who were divorced in the first year of marriage, not their ninth pregnancy.
Was this man abusive? Did you actually see him do it? Is it Motzie Shem Ra? On another thread you said that as long as you aren’t 100% sure, it’s Motzie Shem Ra as long as one party knows. It is possible that you are getting this information from the ex-wife or her friends and the allegation is without merit.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.