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To fix the divorce crisis, spouses have to put their spouses first, and families have to mind their own business and stay out of their children’s marriages.
People have to STOP listening to lashon horah, and Rabonnim have to take a SOLID stand against domestic violence. There is never, EVER an excuse for one person to put their hands on another. Ever. No Excuses. Period. And to victimize the victim, which occurs in frum communities frequently, is causing more and more pain. Sometimes, divorce is necessary. At times, divorce is a necessity, not a crisis.
just curious as to why is it bad to brag about your husband?
and to say there is never ever an excuse for one person to put their hands on another (in a non-affectionate way), i’m not so sure thats true. there can be times that it be necessary and come before divorce. if in a certain situation its the only way to grab a hold of the person and bring them back to reality, and not physically pain them, and then work from there on the issue, without divorce…i think many people will tell you thats a preferred route.
bragging about your husband is very likely to cause marital probems in the families of those who hear you. if mrs A hears that your husband is always there to help on friday afternoons, let’s say, and hers doesn’t, it’s very possible that she wil begin to resent that her husband doesn’t do that.
about grabbing hold of spouse to make him/her see reason – would you have an example for that?
I definitely agree. In fact, I would recommend water boarding. In fact the CIA recently proved that it’s an effective technique & and quickly gains compliance, yet leaves little lasting damage. Over a period of two weeks, it can work wonders.
I’m pretty sure some of their experts are actually looking for work, so if you can pay government scale, which isn’t too much, I would look into it.
moq? i don’t get it…
haros,
Grabbing someone in order to ‘splain something to them, is what the boys in the ‘hood do!!
There are NO EXCUSES to touch any person in a non-affectionate way. You are OUT OF CONTROL, if that’s the only thing you can come up with.
to elucidate my previous comment/question – what is waterboarding?
Wikipedia:
Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing the subject on his/her back with the head inclined downwards; water is then poured over the face into breathing passages, thus triggering the mammalian diving reflex causing the captive to experience the sensations of .[1][2] In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates an almost immediate gag reflex.[3] It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage and, if uninterrupted, death.[4] Adverse physical consequences can manifest themselves months after the event, while psychological effects can last for years.[5] The term waterboarding was coined in 2004.[6][7]
In 2007 it was reported that the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the U.S. intelligence service, was using waterboarding on extrajudicial prisoners and that the Department of Justice had authorized the procedure.[8][9] Al-Qaeda suspects upon whom the CIA is known to have used waterboarding are Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah, and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri.[10][11] According to Justice Department documents, the waterboarding of Khalid Sheik Mohammed provided information about an unrealized terrorist attack on Los Angeles.[12]
Of course, if you are married to Khalid Sheik Mohammed, I’d probably skip the waterboarding and just get divorced. Guys like that are explosive when you least expect it.
To those who stated that divorce is absolutely not an option, and the couple must make it work, I say the following from personal experience.
I was a VERY giving husband for over twenty years. Helped out a lot with every aspect of running a household and raising the kids. Always remembered b-days, anniversaries, flowers for Yom Tov etc.
Never raised my voice to her, nor (needless to say) my hand.
After 20 years, she had some complaints about me which she stated that had been bothering her for many years. I first asked why she did not voice them earlier, for which she did not have much of an answer. I tried very hard to address the issues and to rectify the things that were bothering her about me. I also said we need to go to counseling, which she absolutely refused to do. So I went by myself (davka) to a frum woman, because I wanted to hear from a woman’s perspective. Whatever I tried did not work. If anything, my ex kept saying “you’re trying too hard. It’s not natural. Just be yourself and everything will be fine”. Well, five years of trying to be myself and trying everything to address her concerns, were getting me nowhere. The longer this went on, the more upset I became about the situation. I lost 60 lbs (was never heavy to begin with) because I could not eat.
My Rav and this frum psychologist both stated unequivocally that I MUST get divorced. If my ex is refusing counseling, then I have have no choice. My MD said this will kill me eventually, as I kept losing weight and that my kids need a divorced father more than a dead one.
So, although I dreaded doing it, I made the move. B”H my kids adjusted very well, as I am very involved in their lives. I am told this is THE most important factor for the well being of the children.
Bottom line….I have no regrets about GETTING divorced, but I am having problems BEING divorced. There is no doubt that there is still some stigma attached to divorce and I am the only one in my entire extended family who is (I know this is rare).
I get very lonely and depressed when my kids are not with me for Shabbos and Yom Tov. I get invited to people all the time, but while being alone is no fun, I find it easier than being with other families when I know MY family is elsewhere.
Sorry for getting off topic. Just wanted to make the points that divorce IS sometimes necessary and that kids can sometimes come out intact. I know it aint over till it’s over, but so far they are B”H doing very well. They have lots of friends and are doing well in school. I hope, though, that this will not affect their shidduch prospects……
Wikipedia:
Snowboarding
Snowboarding is a sport that involves descending a slope that is covered with snow on a snowboard attached to a rider’s feet using a special boot set onto mounted binding. The development of snowboarding was inspired by skateboarding, surfing and skiing. It was developed in the U.S.A. in the 1960s and the 1970s and became a Winter Olympic Sport in 1998.
[1]
Wikipedia:
Mountainboarding
Mountainboarding, also known as Dirtboarding, Offroad Boarding, Grass Boarding, and All-Terrain Boarding (ATB), is a well established[1] if little-known extreme sport, derived from snowboarding. A mountainboard is made up of components including a deck, bindings to secure the rider to the deck, four wheels with pneumatic tires, and two steering mechanisms known as trucks. Mountainboarders, also known as riders, ride specifically designed boardercross tracks, slopestyle parks, grass hills, woodlands, gravel tracks, streets, skateparks, ski resorts, BMX courses and mountain bike trails. It is this ability to ride such a variety of terrain that makes mountainboarding different from other board sports.
Yanky…ouch.
Moq-
Yeah, you can say THAT again!
Yanky 55: I agree with what you say – being divorced can be difficult. I am divorced for 6 years after nearly 39 years of being married. Luckily my daughter was grown and married when this happened. While there was never any physical abuse, the constant belittling became wearisome. There was a definite lack of communication and eventually we were 2 people sharing a residence. The past few years have proved to be wonderful – I have become very independent and much more sociable – he never wanted to socialize. I have a host of friends and life is very good. However, it would sometimes be nice to have someone to accompany me to a play, concert or restaurant. I often miss being part of a couple as it seems that much of the social order of the world works on this principle. My only suggestions for a better relationship are to ensure that lines of communication are always open and the couple are comfortable in talking things out. The other thing is to never go to sleep angry with each other – work things out before retiring or things will not be much better in the morning.
yanky:
sorry, I posted my ridiculous posts before your post went up.
I wouldn’t have posted jokes immediately after you.
Minyangal-
Sorry about YOUR situation. While there was definitely a lack of communication between us, we NEVER fought. I always kept my mouth shut and did as I was told. The few times I spoke up just made for a lot of tension that i could not bear. I was frequently berated as well, btw. My therapist referred to me as a “battered husband”.
I’m glad you are at least enjoying your independence. May HKB”H grant you only health and happiness this coming year!
popa-
Not to worry; no harm done. But thank you for being considerate enough to write your apology. G’mar chasima tova to you as well!
i think that in some cases the fact that getting divorced is becomeing more acceptable in our community is a good thing …because it allows who are in bad marrages to get out of them rather than feeling stuck…
dylon:”stuck” is right… and an understatement.A woman trapped in an abusive marriage despite requesting a “get” numerous times is no less an agunah than an agunah whose husband has left her.Well-meaning but clueless people allow the fellow to stay(as he wishes)and unless she is prepared to lose all her kids chas v’sholom…she is “stuck”.
Yes, and a guy who is stuck in a bad marriage must also be thankful that the Torah allows for divorce…..
There are 4 divorces in my extended family. They were because of:
1) Abuse
2) Cheating
3) Moving away from religion
4) Jew divorced her non-Jewish husband
SJS, why do you know the reasons? The reason I ask is because I find it quite distressing that blame is passed around after a divorce c’v. Why the need for the blame game? Why the need for extended family and friends to know the reasons? This itself is quite destructive to everyone involved.
All of them are family. Two turned to me for support (the first two).The one who moved away from religion was fairly obvious. The one who divorced her non-Jewish husband wasn’t specifically because he wasn’t Jewish. They had other issues. Sorry if I made that one sound like it was religion based.
yanky55:true,but it’s usually the other way around.
Yanky55 and minyangal, anyone who weathered the storm past 20 years and had to bail because of abuse or fear of “death by marriage” did not choose to divorce lightly or go into marriage thinking it was disposable. When dealing with a selfish spouse who refuses to be a partner to marriage rather a dictator and there is no way to make a marriage work after trying for so long, as I said you either make your marriage work or make your divorce work for the sake of the kids. You both sound like you made your divorce work for your own sake and the sake of the kids.
Although minyan girls seems to be happy, Yanky still seems to believe that you can have only one bashert in a life time and it was his lot in life to be married to “that” one that caused him so much tzar. I don’t agree with you Yanky and I am not Breslov so I don’t believe in suffering in this world so one can have a sweeter olam habah. I believe that Hashem has a zivig for you somewhere out there that will complement your lifestyle. Someone that will be your other half and make you whole. Someone that will be the ying to your yang if you get my drift. I believe that you are doing yourself a disservice by not looking for her. I also believe that your children will be much happier when you are happier. They love you and they want to see you healthy and happy and they want to see you a whole human being again. They would even dance at your wedding with glee and excitement at this point.
Re: divorces caused by “abuse”
Every family lawyer advised women who come for a divorce, as the first step, to allege abuse against herself and the children.
You will want to take these allegations with a grain of suspicion.
My abuser(if I may be so blunt) thrust me into court BEFORE I EVEN KNEW THAT WAS AN OPTION FOR A JEWISH PERSON.THE BEST DEFENSE IS A GOOD OFFENSE… at least you said a grain of suspicion and not a grain of salt.That was wise.
Popa, no children involved.
And unfortunately women who claim they are abused are not believed right away anymore because of ridiculous situations like you posted.
Not being believed is I think (without exaggeration)THE worst part of the nisayon,ESPECIALLY when you are trying to protect children and YOU are blamed for what another person is doing.It’s a good thing we all believe in Hashem…People say “Sheker ayn lo raglayim”…I say:
SHEKER IS “VROOMING” ALL OVER THE PLACE IN A STATE-OF-THE-ART MOTORIZED WHEELCHAIR.
One day,we will be zoche to see the demise of Sheker.Then we can all say”here lies sheker”(pun intended).
I believe wholeheartedly that anyone in an abuse situation needs to document it via police reports, attorney intervention, private investigator, witnesses, etc. before going into legal battle. Have your paperwork in order so that you build a good case and you have the proof to back up what you say. Don’t be stupid and don’t be blind so you get blindsided by the courts and your spouse’s well paid attorneys. If you have bruises get them photographed and documented by physicians. If you are emotionally and/or verbally abused go for therapy and get an affidavit from your therapist. If your children are being abused, get an affidavit from their pediatricians and therapists. Get everything in writing before you even start an action and keep these documents in an off premises “safe place” like in your mother’s or sister’s home or the bank in a “private” lock box or at your own attorney’s office. Don’t wait to go to court and have your witnesses chicken out in a public forum. People are more willing to help on the spot and document abuse in the heat of the moment than when they had a chance to calm down and are called in as a witness in court.
Even if you have battered wife syndrome (or husband whichever the case may be) and you choose to forgive your spouse each and every time, know that you might reach the point of no return and will come to the realization that you can no longer forgive and move on. So the documentation will have to be pulled out of storage and used to help you exit the failed marriage.
yup…been there done that…had no choice…got me pretty street-smart over the last few years…and i’m proud to say that although i was forced into legal proceedings that literally aged me…I always took the high road…did not let the lawyers write even a single exaggeration…and many tzadikim have told me that it will be a z’chus for me…
but you are100% right that had i had all that ready,the abuser would never have gotten to first base.i was not advised in that direction and did not imagine ever needing it in my wildest nightmares…
To be honest as single this topic is very scary…. specifically if you are a single person looking to get married…. Is there any way to see (“dating wise” what personality or type to avoid…
With respect to you all…
NEEDIDEAS:1.Believe you are worthy of being treated in a way that doesn’t make you feel bad about yourself as a human being.
2. ALL THE SUBTLE red flags are too generic to post:TRUST YOUR INTUITION.bINA y’SAIRA IS A GIFT FROM HASHEM MEANT TO SELF-PROTECT…iF SOMETHING DOESN’T SEEM RIGHT,LOOK INTO IT.It could be it’s nothing…or you could be right on target.
3.the more obvious red flags(while dating) are:laughing at your opinions when you are really serious,treating waiters/cabdrivers/sales clerks,etc. with disdain and attitude,doesn’t treat parents or siblings with common courtesy,behavior inappropriate with regard to modesty,has excuses for why only one friend can make it to the wedding,USE YOUR BINA…HASHEM WILL HELP YOU.
need ideas:
There is no question that dating longer and more intensely is a precaution against getting an abusive spouse.
That said, there are other factors which also play into society’s decisions regarding how long to date.
pba: So dating for a couple years would be the best approach in the regard you mention? I think not, although your comment would lead to that conclusion.
I strongly believe shorter dating is beneficial to avoiding divorce, but neither of us have any data or research for the frum community to support our points.
my friend:
I was only referring to this specific aspect.
I don’t know how dating longer would affect divorce rates overall.
And yes, if we want to take it to extreme, we could say that dating forever would lead to a divorce rate of zero.
(along with a similar marriage rate.)
Or taking your position to extreme, we could say that not even meeting once would be the best. Like Yitzchok did (Eliezer did the kiddushin as a shaliach).
Dating longer is beneficial to avoiding divorce? Yeah can we surely need to learn something from the non-frum, secular society. Ahem. Sure, just look at the low divorce rates in the non-Jewish world. They are not changing spouses like hats, are they? That’s because they not only date for a very long time, but they also live together before marriage. Can you get to know a person better than that? Clearly the sholom bayis in the secular world is one we can learn from.
What exactly will you see when you date for longer? No human walking the face of this earth does not posess negative character traits. Which future spouse’s moral failings which you’ll definitely see more of the longer you date, can you live with? And people that seem nice on dates are not necassarily so. Just because a buchor is courteous to a waiter and says thank you is no indication that he will change the dirty daiper of your two year while your feeding your newborn.
To be honest,the red flags are not always obvious during dating(i just gave NEEDIDEAS a composite of a lot of possibilities).many abusers are great while “winning you over”…and horrific only once they have you and you’re stuck.if it was so obvious during dating…that would make us all pretty stupid to get engaged to them.NEEDIDEAS…ASK HASHEM FOR CLARITY AND FORESIGHT AND YOU WILL BE FINE…hashem doesn’t punish someone who is trying his/her best just because they don’t know better…the main reason some of us needed to have those yissurim was the same reason people have any other nisayon…(yes,all those different reasons)that’s why it would be easier if the general public would not just assume all almanos are tzadaykeses and all grushos are monsters who “destroyed their families”…..it’s like telling a cancer patient:”why are you taking all that dumb chemotherapy?Don’t you see what it’s doing to you?”Am i coming across clearly?
thanks for listening without interrupting,everyone.you have been a wonderful captive audience.
philosopher:
Again, I’m discussing only the aspect of abuse. (not changing your kids diaper is hardly spousal abuse.)
And we cannot bring evidence from other society’s. There are way too many other factors.
And there are plenty of warning signs you can pick up during dating.
And please nobody mention “research”. Research is as likely to out an abuser as McDonell is likely to win in Delaware. (Her chances are not 43%, that is how many would vote for her)
Lest i be misunderstood,every single almana COULD be a tzadaykes!Of course!Just don’t assume that “grushos”are all wierd/bitter CONTAGIOUS….whatever…you know what i’m saying.
It is important to understand how each person “needs” to be respected. It is not only important to understand how to respect others, but one has to get in touch with their own personal evaluation of themselves and know how THEY need to be respected. IF in any given relationship your needs are not being met and you and your needs are not being respected you really should take a good hard look at that relationship and see if it is really working for you or if it is only working for the other party in the relationship. I tell that to all my clients whether it is in a friendship aspect, a parent/child relationship, girlfriend/boyfriend, teacher/student or marital relationship. Lets look at the easiest of all relationships – friendship. Sure it is great for them to have you as a friend, you are a great friend and they are getting everything out of the relationship that they need, but are you? Evaluate if you are being respected int he relationship? If not bring it to their attention and see if they are willing to make the appropriate changes and adjustments. If not you need to make decisions about the relationship and why you are in it. Now you might not be able to make those decisions on your own. You might need to discuss them with someone, your parents, your therapist, your Rav. But eventually you are going to have to decide if the relationship is working for you or if you are going to have to move on and find new friends. Not everyone necessarily is going to be in your quality world or in your immediate circle of quality friends and relationships. Sometimes those closest to you today are not going to last throughout your entire life. And that applies to relative as well. Your closes cousins that you bond with when you are a child might just be a distant relative to you when you are an adult. If you don’t work on your relationship through the years, that can and does happen.
So the number of times one goes out with a person, or how much time people spend together might not be the real issue. The real issue is how you develop the relationship and how you respect each other throughout the relationship. Love is really not enough.
do divorcees wear kittles on yom kippur?
yanky, i feel your pain. i am also divorced and was told by several people to stay married because while getting divorced is easy (oh really?!) it is very difficult living divorced. also, i was told to think of shidduchim for my sons and to stay married for them. yes, being divorced is hard and being a single parent is hard, but i’d rather be a single mom to two children and not to three (when my ex was not beating me, he was fighting with my older son and cursing my younger son).Yes, wondering if the children are okay in divorced homes is a concern but in certain situations, like the one you painfully described, it’s better for them than seeing disrespect, animosity and abuse (and what you describe is abuse!!) And shidduchim? Wouldn’t you rather your children grow up in a stable one parent home than an unsettled two parent home? I finally divorced when my 12 year old raised his hand to hit me and said “Why can’t I? Daddy does it all the time!So,yes, I hear your pain and anochi eemacha b’tza’ar, but know you did the right and the best thing for yourself and your children!!!
popa, Abusive people can be extremely charming when dating and before marriage.
Divorce will happen less when people will realize that that divorce should only be an option when their spouse is are verbally, emotionally, or physically abusive. Otherwise sorry, life is not a bowl of cherries. Learn to make the most of what gifts you do have. Be thankful of what you do have. Hashem sends a lot of gifts to us whether with our spouse or other gifts.
Happiness comes from inside of us, not from others, not even from our spouses.
And most of the time, if we work on becoming better people ourselves, if we work on our own middos, our marriage becomes better.
Aries-
I think you are reading my situation incorrectly. I do NOT believe that it was my lot in life to be married only to that one person, and therefore I cannot move on.
I am merely having trouble moving on because the whole inyan of being divorced is depressing (especially around the Yomim Tovim, as any divorced person will tell you) for many reasons, not the least of which is the financial toll it has taken on me.
You are correct that my children will be happier if I were happier and they have said as much (they are very mature kids).
But I know I need to be happy first with my own self before I look to remarry, something that is a major challenge for me. I am NOT looking to suffer in this world, believe me.
“They” say you don’t get married to be happy. You get married to be HAPPIER. Therefore, I am afraid to do a disservice to a woman by marrying her before I am no longer “broken”.
NEEDIDEAS-
Sorry to scare you, but yes it is scary.
There is allot that you don’t know about yourself yet (so how can you expect to know it about your spouse);
(some may not apply to you)
1) How you function on 2 hours sleep every night?
2) How you function under financial stress?
3) After being taught your whole life to avoid members of the opposite gender, you now have to be around one of them for the better part of every day, how will you relate to your spouse?
4) How will you relate to having another set of parents (your in-laws) who are not your biological parents?
5) Think about all the responsibilities you never had before – car insurance, health insurance, home owners insurance, rent/ mortgage… it can be very stressful handling them all.
6) As much as people think they know how to raise children- all kids are different and there are no instruction manuals. As much as you and your spouse talk and think you are on the same page before the next generation comes around- once they arrive you may have totally different views.
7) When I was single if I had a tough day, I just wanted to be left alone (go for a long drive or walk all by myself). You can’t do that when you’re married.
If I had to offer some advice- make sure there is nothing that is blinding you from seeing the other persons faults. Try imagining this persons personality with the face of someone you find unappealing (I tried it and it worked for me), see if you still like their personality.
And no, I don’t think it takes two to tangle, I think one is enough!
popa, Abusive people can be extremely charming when dating and before marriage.
I agree. Can be.
Again, I was not suggesting policy.
Philosopher, you don’t think its easier for an abusive person to behave on 3 dates versus 6 months? I’m sorry your post is a little ridiculous.
Sure, you can end up with an abusive spouse even if you date for 10 years. But the likelyhood is that getting to know a person over a longer period of time will reveal more about their abusive tendencies than not.
When I was single if I had a tough day, I just wanted to be left alone (go for a long drive or walk all by myself). You can’t do that when you’re married.
Dr. P, that’s not quite true. I tell my husband when I need space to destress. He understands. Its harder now with children – so if I need that time, I make sure the kids are taken care of (or asleep) so I can get that time.
Really, the most important thing about marriage is open communication. If the person you are dating can communicate (or is willing to learn how) then you can work on almost everything.
wikipedia
It takes two to tango is a common idiomatic expression which suggests something in which more than one person or other entity are paired in an inextricably-related and active manner, occasionally with negative connotations. The phrase recognizes that there are certain activities which cannot be achieved singly — like arguing, fighting,(…) dancing the tango.[1]
The tango is a dance which requires two partners moving in relation to each other, sometimes in tandem, sometimes in opposition.[2] The meaning of this expression has been extended to include any situation in which the two partners are by definition understood to be essential — as in, a marriage with only one partner ceases to be a marriage.
I’m not trying to correct you. I just like the real expression.
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