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What can we do to fix the divorce crisis?
Stop allowing people to get divorced and all Rabbonim should force marriage counseling. If a couple is married for 10 years and then decides they want tog et divorced this should be a last resort.
I dont think that the community thinks about the ramifications on the children and the stigma.
Wan’t there a divorce post here last week?
Asd,
Why don’t you spell out for us what you think this crisis is (and please include some facts/statistics to back your case up).
Is the divorce crisis the fact that the divorce rate among frum Jews is higher?
Is the divorce crisis the fact that women are sometimes left as agunos in a divorce?
Is the divorce crisis the fact that visitation/custody arrangements are sometimes unfair?
Or is it something else entirely?
The Wolf
The single greatest cause of divorce is. . . .marriage.
One answer: prepare our kids better for marriage.
And another: don’t rush. Rabbi Pinchas Jung, speaking somewhere for Project Y.E.S. made this point.
parents have got to mix out of their childrens lives and give them independence
You’ll need to define your crisis a bit better.
Is it that you think:
1) there are too many divorces?
2) there are too few divorces?
3) the divorces are too hostile?
4) there are too many recalcitrant husbands holding out on giving a get?
Stop getting married? JOKE. I can think of a couple things, and this does not apply to the chassidishe velt. First, maybe couples should spend a little more time getting to know each other. Because of the pressure from our society, too many are rushing to get married lest they are “left behind”. Second is maturity. Some girls are more mature at 18 than others that are 21 or 22, and vice versa. I don’t even need to mention the maturity (or lack of) of the boys. A parent should be able to tell if their child is mature and ready to get married. Third is the parnasa issue (and I know I will get alot of flak), but if a boy gets married at 20 and decides to spend a year in Israel (or Lakewood or wherever) learning, its different than a boy who is 22 or older. At this age, the young man (unless he really is the R’ Moshe), should be out there attempting to earn a living and support his family. There is too much pressure on the young women out there especially when the babies start arriving. And lastly, people really need to be honest when asked about a potential shidduch. If there are skeletons in the closet and they remain hidden, someone is going to get hurt. Thats my .02
The “Divorce Crisis” is a byproduct of the “Tznius Crisis.”
Address the root before the symptom.
how about being more honest before the shidduch, then facing the consequences of finding out later? – which will anyway happen no matter how well you try to hide it.
another point – chassidishe boys & girls should meet at least 3 or 4 times before getting engaged. it can still be a “b’sho”, as long as it’s indoors..
Maybe the whole shidduch system is faulty – 5-6 dates and an engagement is announced! Making a lifetime commitment takes more than that brief period of time,
Rather be misrable divorced… then misrable married…
Kids need to see happy parents
Stop all the intermingling going on, would certainly be a good first step.
LL – why assume miserable divorced? Maybe happily divorced – but it’s the kids that will be miserable. By the time sheva brochos are over, there’s usually a kid on the way so it’s rare that there are no kids to think about.
By the way, I’d call staying in unhappy marriages a bigger crisis than getting divorced for good reasons.
willi, that is the contemporary liberal American thought-process, to divorce early and divorce often. But most divorces are avoidable and would have been better without a divorce. People divorce too quickly. Then they often end up in a worse state, with no prospects for a better mate than they gave up.
Of course there is a time for everything and sometimes it is unavoidable unfortunately.
Yossi, I agree completely. Knowing someone for < 6 months is hardly enough time to figure out whether you are a LIFELONG compatible partner with someone. Love takes time to develop – and yes, love should be present BEFORE the marriage occurs.
As far as I can tell, “pru u’rvu” does not mean that one has to be in such a rush to get married that it ends in divorce. You have the rest of your lives together, take a little longer to find the one who is right for life. Even if that means…gasp…dating for over a year!
The Torah actually says that Love starts after marriage. Check out Yitzchak&Rivkah
The Torah actually says that Love starts after marriage. Check out Yitzchak&Rivkah
… or before marriage. Check out Ya’akov and Rachel.
The Wolf
ujm- obviously we’re talking about cases where it is necessary. I’m referring specifically to the chassidishe oilem where it’s such a
beeshe that ppl stay forever just to avoid the “street” from talking..
squeak- it doesn’t hurt if you feel some sort of connection b4
It did for them. For most people, it ends in unhappiness.
Almost any 2 people in the world can make a marriage work if they have both had a decent upbringing and possess good midos,tolerance,the ability to compromise,and a healthy sense of humor.When the pattern develops:disrespect,domination,verbal abuse(sometimes physical abuse)-and then keeps escalating….when the one who brings this into the marriage gets support instead of the increasingly distressed victim…real suffering…real crises…divorce is the only solution…and no one in the world has the right to cause further pain by judging,guessing,and ostracizing…just speak to anyone in the parsha.
no body has what to talk about this discussion is ridiculous please rempve this conversation from the table its not nice to talk about it we have to be careful for shefichas damim people could get hurt so all big talkers please find another topic to talk about..
thank you eclipse!!!!!! you took the words right out of my mouth, well, keyboard. but seriously!! this might come as a shock to some, but ahava (love) comes from the root word hav, giving. this shows that the essence of love is giving, which meforshim explain, means that the more you give to someone the more you love them. before two people get married, they’re not giving to each other (except maybe a watch and ring and shas…)so it doesn’t really make sense that they LOVE each other. care for deeply, yes, infatuation, could be. love, no. love comes after marriage; only after the two partners have given tremendously of themselves, can they really love each other.
given this, really any two people can get married and stay married when they have had the correct chinuch, either from home, school, or just self-taught.
the only reason this isn’t working nowadays (of course there are situations where it becomes impossible, i’m not talking about these.) is the very scary attitude of instant gratification in society, and yes, unfortunately, jewish society as well. it seems that people are less likely to work on themselves than they are to complain of not “getting anything” or wtvr it is that they complain about.
just a point about these impossible situations: very often, children of parents who fight, yes, even physically, would rather their parents stay married than get divorced. a home is the center of the child’s world. it doesn’t matter to the child what’s going on in there, as long as he has a ‘place.’ school is not a ‘place’ and i’m sorry to say, being shuttled between two homes is also not a ‘place.’ one home plus one home equeals no home. i am speaking from experience when i say that the children will very very often have surprising opinions when it comes to a seemingly clear-cut case of absolutely necessary divorce.
hatzilu!
well said eclipse. are you a man or woman?
I agree with eclipse. If you both enter the partnership with the mindset, “what can I do to make this work”, it will. If your motive is, “what can I get” once there is nothing left to take, both players lose interest and move on.
Like other middos and the life cycles that are impacted by them, if you’re trained to be a giver, you get a lot more than you give.
Couples need to know that Marriage is hard work and that you have to nurture a marriage, it does not take care of itself, what you put into it is what you get out of it. And that is the key “putting in”. The secular concept of marriage in 50/50. That is not the Jewish concept in marriage. The Jewish concept of marriage is 100/100 percent commitment. Meaning that each partner must give 100% to the other. When doing so, each partner also gets 100% and neither partner is ever lacking in anything. If one only gives 50% you are always waiting for the other 50% and you are always lacking 50%.
The other concept is that marriages are NOT disposable. Kids go into marriage with the concept that divorce is an option if it doesn’t work out. DIVORCE should never be considered an option. AND they have to realize that “not working out” is also not an option, they have to work on it, and work it out each and every day. Each partner has an obligation to their spouse, each and every day and their obligation is not to let anyone or anything get between themselves and their spouse in any way. That means people, parents, job, learning, etc. Whatever it is, whatever mashehu, they need to clear it up before it becomes something big. Even one’s own wants and desires should be weighed against their commitment and obligation to their spouse. Look at the entire picture, what is truly more important? Too many people put their own personal “needs” into play instead of taking into account what their “needs as a couple and family” are.
They also need to learn to forgive and move on and never to hold a grudge, learn to “listen to understand” and to apologize with sincerity. It is too bad when someone wakes up one morning and decides “they need something else” and walks away from their family. Well too bad on you, you made a commitment to your spouse and family and once said you needed them. Whatever you think you need today, is not as important as what the whole family needs, you “need” to get over it or work it into to the whole picture.
As said so eloquently before, LOVE comes and grows from giving and not from taking. The more you give and take care of another person, your spouse or child, the more you love and care for them and the more you want to love and care for them. So when you get married, understand that the person you marry is the most important person in the world.
Reb Bezalel Rudinsky tells his bochurim that a wife is a matanah from Hashem. One must never neglect or forget to show appreciation for a matanah. Women by nature are nurturers. Hashem made us that way. When a man reciprocates the relationship grows and flows continuously.
Eclipse – You are talking about most people and that’s why most people are still married in the frum community. But the crisis isn’t among “if they have both had a decent upbringing and possess good midos,tolerance,the ability to compromise” these type of people. The people who don’t have these, what should they do to stay married? Divorce is common among children of divorced parents. I’m not going to go into why -that’s a parsha by itself.
In other posts, I’ve called for yeshivos to have in-house psychologists, this is but another reason to have them, for these type of children.
The problem is due to many marriages that should not have taken place in the first instance.
One reason why there are more divorces around Tishrei time, and after frum convention season is the lowering of the usual boundaries. When a husband and wife are seperate for eight weeks (wife in a bungalow and husband in the city), the relationship weakens. At frum conventions there are tremendous amounts of male/female mingling and interaction.
Quite simply: Ain apitropis le’arayos. Therefore, both summer bungalows and frum conventions MUST be eliminated.
“Maybe the whole shidduch system is faulty – 5-6 dates and an engagement is announced! Making a lifetime commitment takes more than that brief period of time”
I haven’t written on here for a very long time but when I read your post…Yossi please, I got engaged after 7 meetings and I am very happily married bH. Funny thing is that one of my friends just got divorced after 5 months of maariage and she went out with her husband for 6 MONTHS. It has NOTHING to do with it. Do chassidim who meet for a very short amount of time have a higher divorce rate?? And one more thing, my huband was just speaking about this with his Rav the other day. He said whats the point of all this dating if you don’t really get to know the person anyway till after you’re married? And you know what our Rav said without even thinking twice? He said THERE IS NO POINT!!! He said as long as there is no obvious things that bother you there is no other reason to continue dating, because for what??
Aidle Maidle I agree with you 100%. i am from those yes “bizzare” ppl that met my husband 3 times before getting engaged. i didnt speak to him during the 9 months of my engagement. I remember discussung with him 2 days after my wedding that i dont believe people that know each other for a year before they get married are less on a “high” than we were or yet more “in love” and now b”h a couple of years past my wedding i can still say the same. with time you get to see each others differences and likenesses in a more commited environment. when you are engaged you are not as commited and when something irks you, you get upset and you want to call off the shidduch. i started my married life thinking the WORLD of my husband. none of us hurt each other before, or had any arguments…
besides for this i find that couples that date or “oiver” on so many aveiros in regards to yichud, negiah… etc.
aidle:
There are many factors which would need to go into a study on the relationship between dating length and divorce.
To do an accurate study, you would need two groups who were the same in hashkafa, social pressures, upbringing, and all sorts of other things. (This is impossible.)
A comparison to chassidim is therefore disingenuous since their hashakafa and society is different.
Likewise a story about a couple who dated for 6 months, since they were either relatively modern, or had some serious issues to work through. (If the latter, we can speculate on why they got divorced)
Oomis -If Mommy and Daddy want their little girl to marry a kollel guy then they have to shell out. Don’t tell the Choson to man up. He has no other means of making money except by being supported. Sometimes a guy will have a part time job, but this in no way can support a family. If Mommy and Daddy don’t want to shell out, let them look for a single Jewish professional, not the best guy in Lakewood! BTW, I’m not in Kollel!
The best answer I have read so far was aries2756 although I also like and agree with AidleMaidle.
In my experience and opinion the reason the divorce rate is high in general and also particularly even higher before/in Tishrei is all due to the fact that the Yetzer Hara becomes very strong in this time, not to mention He is strong in this Dor.
Ribbono Shel olam is about to dish out all decrees and blessings for the upcoming year and the Yetzer Hara is doing all he can to see that we mess it up.
He sees all the yidden and married couples who are normally maybe good friends, living as righteous role models, leaders of the family and home and so he is determined to murder them. It can start over something stupid, (the argument). Then it escalates to threats of “get out” “i want a divorce”. So, it all comes down to nothing more than working and improving ourselves and davening for help.
I strongly suggest each and every woman read “WOmen’s Wisdom” by Rav Shalom Arush. (and no I am not a breslover chasid) But it really touches on all those points in which women have to face challenges and rise up to our higher calling with strength and courage. I also recommend Men read “The Garden of Peace” which is the man’s equivalent from the same author.
In short, the divorce crisis is about fighting our common enemy. The Evil Inclination who blinds us from forgiveness, bitachon, our partner’s good qualities and love. And its like he is whispering in our ears all the shallow and fearful insecurities we don’t want to hear, to paint a bleak picture of life and reality. But we have one weapon. 1) We CAN fight back and 2) Davening, Tehilim, etc. In short, we have bechira and can fight back.
Do we have stats that say divorce rates are higher around this time of year?
besides for this i find that couples that date or “oiver” on so many aveiros in regards to yichud, negiah… etc.
You find? Just what findings do you have to justify that statement?
summer bungalows and frum conventions MUST be eliminated.
Sorry Art, I’m not with you on this one. I have been going upstate for more than 15 summers and speaking for myself, the summer separation has given me an appreication for the things I take for granted the other 10 months a year.
Is there trouble in July and August? Of course there is. But its been brewing for a long time. The separation just brings it to a boil. What we as a community need to start promoting is becoming a giver instead of a taker. That will solve lots of the angst.
You can’t blame divorce on anything else but selfishness. Anything can be worked out if both parties are willing to be giving to the other. If either party is too selfish to put the other’s needs on the same level as their own, then that is the party that causes the irreconcilable difference.
No one can interfere in a marriage if a spouse is not selfish enough to let their ego get the better of them, and put respecting their spouse first.
Friends can’t interfere in a marriage, if one’s spouse is more important than the friends.
Parents can’t interfere in a marriage, if one’s spouse has the top position in their priority list.
Nothing can interfere in the marriage if you keep your ego, your selfishness, and others in check.
You find? Just what findings do you have to justify that statement?
true I am “naive” and live in a “box” but i do see what goes on out there… I have lots of family that go through the “dating process”.
How many times do they drive on quiet roads late at night? how mant times do they pose for inappropiate pictures (even after the engagement) how many times do they go to quiet parks for a walk… all these (as i have been taught) are assur.
asf:
I assume they ask their rabbonim what violates yichud.
also, that is hardly negia, let alone “etc.”
I’m no expert but I’ve been married to my only wife for almost 40 years. When dating be genuine and sincere. Don’t try to be more frum than you really are and lose the “taiva” for “gashmius”. Who really cares what car you drive? or the designer dress? or a big fancy house. It doesn’t mean you don’t like nice things but keep it in a healthy perspective. If you are Bais Yaakov girl think about whethr you really want a full-time kollel husband. It sounds good. BUT is this in fact good for you. If it is then fine. If not, don’t feel guilty afterall your teachers won’t be married to him, you will be. Just use common sense…. an apparently rare attribute these days.
EDITED
“You can’t blame divorce on anything else but selfishness”
Aries, with all due respect to your spot-on observations, sometimes two really nice and unselfish people, are just not meant for each other. I know people who divorced and have a much better relationship than they ever did when married. it is sad, but it happens.
ASF, I am truly delighted (not being sarcastic) that things worked out so well for you. Both you and your husband must be very special people. But you are among a small percentage of people who are an exception, IMO, and I wonder how many other girls in a similar situation really feel as you do, or simply cannot cop to the true feelings that they harbor after the fact.
The Torah actually says that Love starts after marriage. Check out Yitzchak&Rivkah “
It is Rashi who interprets the pasuk to eman that it was after marriage that Yitzchak loved Rivka. That is not halacha, however, that it has to be that order. It is true that a more lasting and deeper loving commitment forms after marriage, and that is more important than the ephemeral emotions that couples have prior to the chasunah. But love starts when it starts, before, during, after, marriage, and even in some rare cases, after the death or even divorce of a spouse, when one realizes what one has lost.
Mister ploni, very true when you are going out with the guy I would also recommend noticing his character and checking to see if he’s not lazy!
Life goes up and down, one day a person could have money and health and chas veshalom the next day it could be gone but his character and his go get it attitude will always be there.
BP Totty:
There is a reason why Hashem chose to mention smack in middle of Maaseh Beraishis: “It’s not good for man to be alone”.
If you don’t understand what I’m getting at…GREAT!! The moderators won’t let me explain it to you further!
Sometimes when people get divorced, they realize it was a mistake and they then “work” on their relationship with their former spouse because they actually have charatah and have no clue what drove them to get divorced in the first place. Believe me they go through the “if only’s”. If only I had put more effort in while I still had the chance. If only I looked at him/her the way I see him/her now. If only i noticed him/her like I do now. If only I appreciated….(fill in any of the blanks). And do you know what Oomis, some of them do give it another chance after counseling and becoming friends again.
We are to blame for the high divorce rate because we are silent. Who wants to chas v’shalom ruin a shidduch by revealing that this handsome frum looking yeshiva bocher from a heimish family, is really a bum? No amount of counseling is going to help a marriage where the husband is a womanizer, or drug addict, or gambler, or gay, or abuses his wife.
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