- This topic has 94 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 10 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
oomis, not to argue the point, but I am still not sure what you are visualizing. A 3-5 month old baby wrapped in a blanket can lay down snuggly in this space with walls on ALL sides coming up a good 6 inches around him and space on all sides. Whether you would place him there or not, I am not sure what about it seems so misguided. “
SYAG, babies of that age and size are VERY wriggly and totally unpredictable. The space is really not all that large, unless they are SITTING up with their feet extended across the width of that space (which sounds very uncomfrotable to me as I viaualize it). I would not rely on a child to stay put, and they would not stay put if they are awake, as it is a very cramped area in which to be stuck. And to put something ON TOP of the baby????????? OY!.
Let me guess, you dont have kids yet?
i think some posters are visualizing ‘the top part’ of the shopping cart as the place for toddlers to tosit with their feet hanging forward out, and some as the upper half level of the 2 levelled shopping carts..
i think some posters are visualizing ‘the top part’ of the shopping cart as the place for toddlers to tosit with their feet hanging forward out”
That’s the only type I know of. And if there is a two-level shopping cart, avadeh, it is not the place to put a baby unrestrained safely. IMO, of course.
ommis- there are these cart w 2 levels, the top is the same as the bottom but half the size. Safety-wise, it’s the same as laying the baby in the main part of a cart you are talking about. Big enough for a baby to fit and move around, with high enough sides that he couldnt possibly roll out, and divided from the part for the toddler to sit. Safe for an infant lying on a blanket or in a snow suit imo…
I still would not do this, as the temptation to put things in the cart with the baby would be too great (and clearly the mom did exactly that). I have never seen the type cart you are describing, but I still don’t think it’s a great way to shop, and not fair to the baby who is indoors all bundled up (and if the baby is NOT bundled, he or she could get hurt by the hard sides of the cart when jostled). I understand the point you are making, but I don’t think this is a good thing to do.
An equally disturbing sight is a young mother with a stroller and two small kids in row jaywalking mid block on 13ave in Boro Park
An equally disturbing sight is a young mother with a stroller and two small kids in row jaywalking mid block on 13ave in Boro Park”
Totally right.
AS I read these “shopping cart” responses, I wonder if it’s a generational thing, that the older CR members are more disturbed about this than some younger ones. Any thoughts about this?
Maybe not. Maybe some adopt to the live and let live theory.
There’s a certain amount of hishtadlus, normal care, concern, prudence a person must make regarding every important possession, all the more, one’s own children. However, going overboard is not the way. Like telling the Ribono Shel Olam – Ha! Let’s see you do something to my child! He’s in a certified FAA, CDC,CDH ASA (any other combinations?) #12.22.333 child restraint upgrade for Jan. 2014. (Dec. 2013 won’t do, it’s not safe enough) Oh, in the new (multi-million dollar series) baby’s health book, it says that from now on, it’s only safe to carry a baby with two people, (one time, a single person r”l dropped..). Oh they made a survey (somewhere) about the absolute DANGERS of a baby sucking (accidentally) his finger. From now on all fingers must be sterilized (boiling water, bleach, anti-this anti-that)
Actually that’s the famous line, if you want to know how many children one has, see how they clean off a dropped pacifier (ok I know in the new book they totally outlawed pacifiers – they cause unpronounceable-itis and unpronounceable-ella) By the first one they clean it in boiling water, by the second tap water will do. By the third, Mommy licks it clean…
Yes, people are supposed to be careful, not to go totally meshuga. Putting a child in the basket?!? GASP!! Putting something on top of him/her?!? GASP!! C’mon people. We’ve been surviving that for the past six thousand years (I wouldn’t be here otherwise). Oh, we now learned to “correct” angle, height, weight etc. to do it correctly. (it’s going to be re-re-re-revised next month)
One needs “Daas” to differentiate between something dangerous and not. Nothing “dangerous” here. (do you know the chances you take by stepping out of your house every day? What if.. could even be.. Heaven forfend, if..)
As I said LIVE AND LET LIVE
Oomis, I am not a grandmother nor anywhere close to being one (my kids are 2 and 8 months) but I share your views. Maybe I was just brought up old-fashioned, since this is not the only old-fashioned opinion I have (such as working hard and earning things rather than expecting parents to provide.)
babies are too young to shop
@dkm/ghbj
NotaSheep, nice to hear from someone in my kids’ age range. There is something to be said for old-fashioned. And while I respect Little Froggie’s view, it is wrong to believe in live and let live when it comes to child safety and especially infant safety.
Maybe I am a little more sensitive to this because I see my very nice and kind neighbors being totally unwatchful of ANY of their children, including their VERY young toddlers. I have described this before, so i won’t go into it again, but I see an emergent pattern whereby present-day parents somehow do not fear the consequences of their laissez-faire attitude in child-rearing. I actually had a mother say to me one time (no safety gate by steep steps), “So if he falls down the stairs the first time, he will learn not to go near the top of the stairs again.” SERIOUSLY??????????????? Are people so cavalier and STUPID, not to mention foolishly trusting in some “Baby Malach” that they believe that nonsense? How many trips to the ER (or worse, chalilah) do they need, to learn that maybe their way of thinking is the problem?
Hashem Gives us the matana of a precious baby, and we cannot be bothered to ensure its safety, by taking reasonable and seicheldig precautions with them? I am sorry, but I subscribe to a different publication. Call me old-fashioned. It’s a compliment from where I am sitting.
While people are visualizing the shopping cart, I’m visualizing a judgmental guy staring at all passing shopping carts, evaluating their philosophical value.
Once again, I emphatically agree with oomis. Not sure I’d be that gentle with little Froggie. Lil F, do you also believe in live and let live when your house is broken into or your purse is snatched? How about when it’s your neighbor’s house or purse? How about when shells are raining down on on Sderot? Infant safety is serious business, and parents should be happy to receive guidance when their babies’ well being is at stake.
I’m not sure I agree that oomis is old-fashioned. I consider myself greatly blessed that the parents of my grandchildren do as much as they can keeping their little ones safe, and emotionally, spiritually, physically and nutritionally taken care of. Their methods may not be exactly the same as mine, but the love and caring are there in abundance. And they’re all quite young.
Little Froggie – I confess I never sterilised my babies’ dummies (that’s what we call them in this country) when the dropped on the floor. Tap water or Mummy’s mouth was fine. And after four months I stopped sterilising my younger child’s bottles between feeds (my older one was only given a bottle past this age anyway, so hers were never sterilised). However when it comes to a situation where a baby could fall out and get injured, a mother cannot be laissez-faire. I also confess that I rarely strap my baby in the highchair (it has a wedge between the legs to prevent slipping) and that I don’t have a stair gate. B”H my older one was too scared to go near the stairs until she learned to slide down them herself and my younger one isn’t crawling yet. But I will not put my kids in a situation where it is fairly likely they could get hurt. For example, I will not drive in the car without strapping my kids in, and cannot understand parents who drive with their kids standing, kneeling, crawling over the back seats – WHERE IS THE COMMON SENSE?? All it takes is one small incident (it doesn’t even have to be major, an emergency stop will be enough) and those kids will be flying out the windows and acquiring some serious injurious chas v’sholom.
Again, don’t get me wrong. I wouldn’t put my children where they’re likely to c”v get hurt, either. I wouldn’t place them in a cart where their possible to fall out from. I’m just saying (read again what I wrote) there’s a BIG difference between being careful, prudent, with sense, than going entirely overboard and making this “child-safety” into a religion with a life of it’s own. Read again what I wrote. No, I’m not blithely careless, reckless, neglectful or anything of the sort. (ask any of my children… forget it, don’t ask)
I’m just not into going totally meshuga crazy with the latest religion of child-safety. Child Safety. Child Precaution. Child Alert. Child Protection. Version this. Revision that. Recall. Re-recall…
Again, I’m calling for a measure of common sense, to differentiate. ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????. There’s a middle path, the NORMAL path. There’s a mitzvah in the Torah (Rambam, I think also quotes) to eliminate any ???? and ??????? from one’s home – ??? ???? ???? ??????. Gates on steps are certainly included. And so are all others in this category. However going overboard, crazy, is no mitzvah. To be over-over-over paranoid watchful is wacky. Placing my cuty under my watchful eye in a cart is in NO WAY a danger. (no more danger then letting her in the same house as her brother..)
I was going to leave this thread alone because I didn’t want to sound like I was nit picking but I think something very important has been revealed. I don’t think oomis is old fashioned. She is only a bit older than I am but I have found myself on board with almost everything she says. In this situation, I disagree strongly, but it is really not about that.
I am a VERY careful parent, VERY safety conscious. If I would put my baby in that position, it is because it is, without a doubt, 100% safe. The fact that someone else would pass by and disagree does not change that fact. But that, to me, is not the real issue here.
I have been in situations where, as a mom of many boys, my children have been allowed to climb on things or rough house in ways that older people, or “girl moms” thought was dangerous. It wasn’t. But they believed with their whole heart that it was. So the bottom line is, are they right just because they think they are? If they would deal differently, does that give them the right to decide I am negligent? Is their overprotective nature, which they DON’T see as overprotective, automatically a license to condemn?
Anyone who knows me knows they can trust me with their kids, as well as mine. If they see me doing something they “assume” was not safe, wouldn’t it behoove them to stop and think that perhaps they have a misperception? Or is it automatically wrong because it does not fit in to their baseline of safety? Trust me, I am NOT speaking about using knives or staying home alone. I am talking about things like climbing on monkey bars, riding bicycles with no hands, and reaching a high shelf.
I understand that with safety it is important NOT to be laissez-faire, but there is nothing wrong with taking a second look and making sure that your quick assessment and condemnation is not tainted by your own personal life experiences and is, in fact, based in reality. And I do the same when I think parents are being ridiculously overprotective and enabling their children. Or depriving them of independence by spoon feeding them, dressing them, or doing other things for them when they have long passed the age where they should be doing it for themselves.
Safety is not a perception, it is a reality, but assessment of that reality is subjective as we are all human. Please take two looks next time you pass someone who you are SURE is negligent. If you are correct, the second look should encourage you to act. If you are wrong, the second look should encourage you not to judge unfairly.
Safety is not a perception, it is a reality, but assessment of that reality is subjective as we are all human”
Syag, please believe me when I say I don’t disagree at all with most of what you posted. But just as you believe that some parents misperceive or misassess (is there such a word?)the safety of a situation, likewise so might you do so, and misjudge the safety of that same activity. I am not talkiong about climbing on monkey bars (which should still be done under supervision, but absolutely let ’em climb), or boys (and girls do, too) roughhousing at times, again under supervision, so nobody ends up with a broken nose, BE”H. Nevertheless, though we want out kids to be active and have fun, no one wants to be that parent whose child was perfectly ok doing dangerous things UNTIL IT WASN’T OK. You don’t want to learn by certain experiences.
My grandson who is kinehora about to be 19 months old, loves to climb up on things since he could walk, and does, but he also recemt;y discovered the ability and joy of lifting up toilet seat lids. Should he be allowed to a) go into the bathroom unsupervised and b)climb up on the toilet, whether the lid is down or not? But maybe we are squelching his sense of discovery and adventure!! I am perfectly willing to squelch that particular adventure.
There are certain things that are inherently dangerous to and for kids, and putting a squirmy child in a top part of a cart could possibly turn out to be one of those things, as the child turns over and falls out when the mom’s back and attentions are turned to something other than the baby. It was perfectly OK – until it wasn’t. I don’t believe that is being overly cautious, however if you do think so, I totally respect your right to feel that way, especially if you are extra careful with your child.
I can tell you from my own experience, that I have never judged my neighbors unfairly, having (either my husband or myself personally)saved at least four of their children from running into oncoming traffic, getting lost blocks away from their home, and/or falling down their outside staircase as they ride their tricycles on Shabbos unsupervised. And I am speaking of toddlers, some as young as 18 months. I guess that has predisposed me “to judge unfairly.”
But I see what I see, and it scares me as a mother and loving grandmother, that there are people who are truly nice people, but are clueless as to how dangerous some of the things they let their do, actually are. And I have not even discussed the HALF of it.
I think you are picking at my words, but I also think you understood most of what I said. And the day my 3 month old turns over while bundled and falls out of a cart that has walls 6 plus inches above him on all sides, I will rethink things. I absolutely took all you mentioned into account already BEFORE I spoke, I was NOT referring to being laid bac about safety issues and I tried to be clear about that.
I think you are correct in saying that your experience with your neighbors has predisposed you and I feel horrible for you to have to live under such conditions. It would affect me in the exact same way (but I probably would be more cruel and nasty than you are capable of).
As far as my mis-assessing (if it wasn’t a word, it is now) safety, I already mentioned that I take that second look when confronted, but I would have to say that I would be very surprised if I did. I made, and continue to make lots of mistakes in every other area of parenting, but B”H a million times over, (and mostly due to living in an apartment so small that my children were never really alone), they were safe.
I am very curious, however, to see how I am as a grandmother one day, Bez”H. I have a feeling it will be very different.
As an aside but related, the first time I took a child to the emergency room for stitches (he fell on a sharp knife I left on the floor) (JUST KIDDING) the nurse said, “Do you mean to tell me you have 5 boys and this is your first visit for stitches?” I was hoping her being impressed was a kiddush Hashem somehow. I don’t think, for a minute that it was my own doing, I was just hoping that the nurse would think so 🙂
Most of you didn’t even notice that WIY’s concern was not one of safety. Though you are all arguing about the safety of this baby when none of you actually saw it. My guess is, if he wasn’t worried about the safety of the baby, most likely, the baby was actually safe where he/she was.
I think I agree with that.
And the day my 3 month old turns over while bundled and falls out of a cart that has walls 6 plus inches above him on all sides, I will rethink things. “
🙂 – that can and WILL happen with most normal kids at some point (BE”H never to yours). babies are notoriously never still! Six+ inches of wall space are really nothing, to a determined baby (and at six months would you feel the same as you do at three months?). Some motor skills develop unexpectedly quickly. Then watch out!!!!!
And even I (yes, I) had a couple of ER visits. My toddler (some 25 years ago) fell out of a locked storm door at my parents’ house, when the lock gave way in the door frame without warning, and the edge of the door clipped him in the forehead as it swung back. I was standing with him when it happened. He had been looking out the door, leaning on it, to watch squrrels in the back yard. The door had NEVER opened up like that. But as I said earlier, it’s always safe – until it isn’t. This is my youngest of five, and the very first time we had to go to an ER, an experience I never want to repeat with a child (or anyone, actually) again.
B”H regarding my neighbors, they are all fine, nice people, they just are too much of the “somchin al haneis” mentality when it comes to their children, in my subjective opinion and experience. I know they love their children, it is very obvious from akll their other interactions with the children. This is just one of those areas that concern me, as an old fogey. I can’t avoid seeing what goes on, and I also believe strongly in “lo suchal l’hisaleim.”
based on everything I have said, do YOU think I would feel the same about a 6 month old?
And I have to laugh because, as a pediatric OT, I’m pretty good at determining what what motor skills are coming 🙂
But regarding your neighbors, I give you credit for calling them fine people. No matter how much they love their children the things you have described are full fledged neglect. Toddlers unsupervised outside, blocks away, running into streets?! They should lose their children regardless of how much they love them. That doesn’t sound like relying on miracles, that is child endangerment.
By the way, I didn’t mean to deprive you of that rice kugel recipe, I just haven’t had my computer and cook book in the same place for a while.
Oomis: A 3 month old baby can roll off the bed, but a parent will still place a baby on the bed if the parent is right there and watching over the baby. I do think it’s possible that the mother was very careful watching over the baby in the cart while doing her shopping, maybe even put her hand on it’s abdomen while her face was turned away. Or even if not, a mother can know her baby enough to know if she turned away for a minute or two the baby will not fall out (climb out??!) over 6+ inches. While you may not be ready to do that, I don’t think it’s an automatic assumption that the mother was placing her baby in any danger whatever.
WIY: If you really thought that it was a safety issue, why in the world would you be busy with the baby’s dignity? Do you really think the baby’s dignity was more important than the baby’s safety?
No, but nobody cares about the baby’s dignity, so that’s what needs fighting for.
maybe even put her hand on it’s abdomen while her face was turned away.”
Get real, Trust. I have YET to see ANY mother (or father) do that while shopping. Typically, they ALL turn their backs “for just a moment,” as they reach for necessary items on the shelves.
Syag, my daughter is also a pediatric OT. She wouldn’t do this, either, but always put the baby in the car seat into the cart, until they could sit up properly in the top of the shopping cart.
As to what you said and I know you did not really mean, regarding my neighbors (“They should lose their children regardless of how much they love them.”), CHAS V’CHALILAH that should ever happen. I would not wish it on any parent. I just wish that ALL parents nowadays would have less of a loosie-goosie attitude when it comes to how they watch or don’t watch their kids at any age. Our precious kids deserve our protection when they are too young to watch out for themselves.
I guess that we have two different styles and comfort levels in certain aspects of child care. That’s fine. I have no doubt that you are and always were very watchful of your children. In the story first posted, I do not think it was so wise of that mom to put her infant in the cart in that manner.
rebyidd23: That was obviously not his reasoning.
WIY: I’m well aware that you don’t consider the baby’s dignity more important than his safety. My point was, that I’m sure, if you would have detected danger to the baby, you would have focused more on the safety issue, than on his dignity.
Oomis: I couldn’t disagree with you more. Typically, they ALL turn their backs “for just a moment,” They ALL? For real? You can’t imagine a parent doing that? Did you ever put your baby on a surface (without 6+ inches on all sides) and place your hand on it’s abdomen and turn around to get something nearby?
Trust, I never did that, if the surface was something they could potentially fall off. I have been shopping for over 45 years, have observed so many parents with their babies, and I stand by my statement.
The only place where I have ever done what you describe is on a changing table, where I had to reach for a diaper. But even though my baby could not yet turn over, I DID place my hand firmly on him for the LITERAL second it took. I have never seen anyone do that while shopping. A relative of mine had the same type of scenario with the changing table, but she did not hold onto her baby for “just a second,” who chose that moment to turn over from his back for the first time. He fell off the table onto the carpet. B”H he was not injured, just scared, and so was she. Never happened again.
I sense that you feel chauvinistic on behalf of these mothers, and think they are unfairly being criticized. I wish that were the case. Their actions could potentially have serious consequences for their children. I said this earlier, I am beginning to think it is a generational thing, this difference of opinion. In any case, isn’t the main objective for the children to be safe? Does it really matter who is right and who is wrong, as long as we are all aware of the need to be vigilant with our children? Though we cannot protect them from every bump and bruise, certain actions are guaranteed to be a potential sakana to them. IMO, this was one such action.
oomis,
I said this earlier, I am beginning to think it is a generational thing, this difference of opinion.
I disagree that this is a generational thing. There were neglectful parents and careful parents 30 years ago, and there are neglectful parents and careful parents today. I’m sure that 30 years ago there were differences in opinion among parents regarding what was safe or not safe, just like we see in this discussion. And I’d bet a pound of grain that there were grandparents looking askance at the parenting of their children’s generation. Ain kol chadash tachas hashemmesh.
I personally would never do what the OP described with one of my infants, because from my perception of what he’s describing, it sounds uncomfortable and unsafe for the infant. At the end of the day, however, I did not witness what this specific mother did, what led up to it, what followed it, what her thought processes were at the time – I know very few of the actual facts. If the OP had asked, “do you think it’s a good idea to place your infant directly into the toddler seat of a shopping cart on his back and then put food on top of him,” I would have given a resounding no. What the OP wants from us, however, is to judge a specific mother’s care for her children, a mother who he alone saw, and only for a moment in time. Every parent makes mistakes they later regret. Some parents are truly neglectful. We don’t know what this was. Would any parent want someone to step in right at the moment they make a mistake with their child, and then post this mistake to the Internet looking for a chorus of boos? I am NOT comfortable with that – especially since others are using it as a platform to bash young Jewish parents in general.
What the OP wants from us, however, is to judge a specific mother’s care for her children, a mother who he alone saw, and only for a moment in time. Every parent makes mistakes they later regret”
I cannot disagree with that. Maybe this thread has helped to make some people more aware that our actions ARE noticed, and judged as well, and perhaps we all need to think about how we are perceived, whether or not we think we are doing something wrong or neglectful.
oomis: I’m definitely not the same age as you as I am nowhere near grandchildren!! My oldest is 7 and I completely agree with everything you said. It’s heartbreaking to see how some parents have a “loosey goosey” attitude in regards to the safety of their children. I may be nuts but when i walk to work and see a car with the motor on and a child/toddler who is not tall enough to be seen from inside the car or even from the side of the car, walking behind the car, yes I run to grab the child away! Mind you this car was in a driveway. The second i started my sprint, i saw the mother on teh side of the car putting in another child. Maybe I’m nuts but that is so wrong on so many levels.
Another thing that bothers me to no end, is when mothers walk ahead of their children. It doesnt matter what neighborhood you live in, as we’ve learned from past sad experiences, your children should be within your eyesight at all times! All it takes is a fraction of a second for a car to pull out of a driveway, a sicko to grab a child, or a big crack for a child to get hurt. Children are a gift from Hashem and we must guard them and keep them safe! I always tell my children “next to or in front of me!”
OK, sof davar hakol nishma, whether or not we think that oomis is old (probably not, if 50 is the new 20), old-fashioned (I didn’t think so, but maybe others did), or just caring and smart and definitely in the running for CR Voice of Authority on Childcare (I”ll vote for that 1), I think we can let her have the last word here.
Oomis-
I sense that you feel chauvinistic on behalf of these mothers, and think they are unfairly being criticized.
I’m objecting to the word ALL that you used. You make it sound like you never see mothers (nor fathers) who act responsibly to their children.
I remember many years ago there was an article about alcoholism in the Jewish community. The writer made it sound like if you walked into a shul in Boro Park you would see drunkards lying all over the place. When nothing can be further from the truth.
It’s a very unfortunate occurrence that when people criticize others in our community, they blow it up into making others who are not aware what goes on by us, think that it’s the norm rather than a very big exception. I go shopping in supermarkets too, and in KRM too (where WIY observed this incidence), I have never observed any neglect of children in those aisle.
And for the record, I would not have done what that mother did. There are many times I observe others do what I would not do. And I’m sure the reverse is true too. Unless it’s real negligence, I would not judge, which I don’t think necessarily applies in this situation. I do believe that the mother could have been very careful and you’re assumption that she certainly was not, is what bothers me.
Another thing that bothers me to no end, is when mothers walk ahead of their children.
That bothers me too.
oomis,
Maybe this thread has helped to make some people more aware that our actions ARE noticed, and judged as well, and perhaps we all need to think about how we are perceived, whether or not we think we are doing something wrong or neglectful.
I agree. Avoiding appearances of evil is just as important as dan l’kaf zechus.
Golfer – so kind of you (and I haven’t seen 50 for 12 years!). Thank you for what you posted.
Miritchka – I am glad to see that I am not so old-fashioned as I thought.
Trust – perhaps you misunderstood me. When I wrote ALL, I meant ALL the somewhat negligent people whom I have observed through the last 45 shopping years of my life. WITHOUT exception, I have seen THOSE specific parents being negligent, careless, cavalier, unmindful, casual, heedless,incautious, pick whatever word you want to describe the type of behavior that does not recognize the potential for danger to a child (and NOT all parents are negligent, you are right).
A mom was talking to a friend in front of her own home as her toddler rode off on his tricycle all the way down the block of a VERY busy intersection. He was about to go into the street (she never noticed), and by Hashgocha Protis I walked by on the way to a local store. I saw the toddler about to go into the street, and I never ran so fast. I brought the baby back to his mom, who looked up and said, “Oh he’s fine,” and continued her conversation. So I guess I come from a predisposition to just not rely on parents to always do the right thing, no matter how much they love their children. If you knew me personally, you would realize that this all stems from a feeling of caring for the children, not from a desire to be negatively judgmental.
When my kids would say I am criticizing them for something they are doing that they shouldn’t, my reply always was, DON’T do that, and you won’t ever hear a word of criticism. Simple as that. I would never judge someone as being negligent, were they not IMO BEING negligent. How many parents STILL, knowing how dangerous this is, leave appliance cords dangling over a table or near the stove, or have venetian blinds with the old-style cords and don’t put those cords high up out of the way of curious hands, as they pose a serious strangulation hazard? It never happens – until it does! How many neglect to put outlet covers on all their reachable outlets (because it’s too hard for the ADULT to reach, but a baby easily can)? How many give their very young children whole grapes or frankfurters, popcorn, or round sucking candies, though these are well-known choking hazards? I am not exaggerating about this.
So in the grand scheme of things, perhaps a baby lying across the top of a cart doesn’t bother some of us, and compared to other things that parents might do unthinkingly it is not as risky, but I still would not do it. BTW, this is something I see lots of young mothers do, not just the Jewish frum ones. So don’t take it as a condemnation of the Jewish community.
WIY-
You are such a special person!
Oomis: Do you really equate placing an infant in a cart as WIY described and the real negligence that you observed regarding a mother who wasn’t watching her toddler near a busy intersection? Can you not even think that possibly the mother was extra careful regarding her baby?
Syag Lchochma stated: WIY – I have placed my babies safely in the cart as you described, but only after making sure 100% that they were safe. Any scenario you would like to construct to argue that does not apply, as I would not have placed them there if they were not safe. I also would not have walked away from the cart, nor would I have placed things ON him, though I am certain I put things around their legs. While I feel you may or may not be wrong in your judgement, I consider it a tremendous maaleh that you are so caring for an infant.
So yes, there are mothers that would do that while being extra vigilant. Again, I objected to the word ALL. Thinking that a person who would place a 3 month old baby like that is certainly negligent, careless, cavalier, unmindful, casual, heedless,incautious, pick whatever word you want to describe the type of behavior that does not recognize the potential for danger to a child is in my view negatively judgmental even if it all stems from a feeling of caring for the children.
Trust – ok. I didn’t say all people did that. I thought I was being clear that all the people whom I HAVE OBSERVED personally, did that. I hope this clears up any confusion you may be still experiencing at what I wrote. I stand by my words.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.