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The Borsilano Thread?
I didn’t really read that thread, but seriously I did really hear about Boys who were promised things to marry a girl and the girls parents could not afford them. Many kids today were bought up on nice things and expect to have those things when they get married and don’t realize that when you learn in Kollel they are a luxury, in fact many are luxuries even if you work a normal job
It’s probably worth pointing out that the writer of the letter had no problem with women learning computer programming to support their families. That skill is one that, presumably, they went to some sort of institution to learn.
So he’s clearly not saying that people should be uneducated/unskilled yet still hope to make a decent living.
Charlie:
It’s not a question of “the Torah educational system” and anyone being more “fragile” etc. Chazal tell us “Shani minus diMashcha”. Heresy has a specific attraction to anyone, even the greatest gadol.
It’s probably worth pointing out that the writer of the letter had no problem with women learning computer programming to support their families. That skill is one that, presumably, they went to some sort of institution to learn.
It is questionable if being a code monkey (programming from a course) is a “skill” any different than typing was in the 60s & 70s.
zahavasdad I am not talking about a Borsalino hat, I am talking about more basics like Food and Rent. Lack of proper nutitioin is becoming an issue.
Look at Lakewood do u see malnutrition there, if u care so much about malnutrition in the Yeshivish community why don’t u then give more of ur money to chesed to help them?
DY: If your Rav looks you in the eye and tells you, “Yes your kids are starving but Hashem will provide so don’t get a job”, you would trust him? I certainly hope not.
GG: That was an awful comment. You have no idea who he is and how much Tzedaka he gives. Also, if someone puts himself into such a position why is ZD obligated to bail him out?
Sam, way to take all context out of the situation.
Sam2 Do u really know how much Tzedakah ZD really gives to the Yeshivish community?
There is no mitzvah to specifically give to any community or specific charity , you can give to any place you want
zahavasdad I am not talking about a Borsalino hat, I am talking about more basics like Food and Rent. Lack of proper nutitioin is becoming an issue.
But it seems to me that u have a special interest in the Yeshivish community, so u might as well give Tzedakah to the community.
“There is no mitzvah to specifically give to any community or specific charity “
From mishnaic times through the period of the Rishonim (and possibly longer) there were mandatory community charity collections. See the last perek of Masechte Peah and Rambam Hilchot Matanot Aniyim. According to Rambam, who wrote that he had never heard of any Jewish community not having such an institution, anyone who refused to contribute the assessment could recieve lashes and have their property seized by beit din.
The RY makes many valid points explaining why so many frum yidden choose to forgo college.
“The RY makes many valid points”
True and had the piece been written as a warning rather than a ban there isn’t a lot to object to — as I pointed out, Rabbi Dr. Tzvi Hersh Weinreb has been saying some of the same things. But an absolute ban on secular study is not consistent with our mesorah and this proves that it isn’t just Open Orthodox that is trying to make innovations that have not been accepted in the past.
He also prohibits courses where the teacher is “so-called religious without a smattering of Torah spirit”. In other words, he would even prohibit a Chareidi course if one of the teachers is “not Chareidi enough”.
Listen, I just started my first semester in a frum, all girls college. Whatever excuses you want to give…. what the RY is saying about losing one’s yerei Shamayim is true. Weather you agree with the hishtadlus part or not, is money- the here and now worth risking what is REAL FOREVER? The passion for the only emes of yiddishkeit is diminished when one has to be busy with delving into the shtusim of history, psychology, opinion articles… This is a proven fact- I know.Is all that worth losing, or even diminishing in the slightest? What’s the point in life?
Who do you want to be? It’s up to you.
R Moshe Hillel Hirsh shlit”a: 1. Is a talmid of Reb Ahron Kotler so it makes sense that his outlook follows that of his rebbe. 2 Is Rosh yeshiva in Slabodka in Bnei Brak, one of the most intense insular strongholds of that city. 3 Most probably graduated high school, possibly a public one… 4 and most importantly was addressing only people who are earnestly interested in his opinion, and intends to follow his instruction. As for everyone else, he was not speaking to you. This includes everyone on this site, as he has often advised against using the internet for non-commercial purposes.
History is not Shtus, In fact Yosephon (Josephus) is an actual sefer Ive seen learnt
Gavra, that comment about atzlus is quite presumptuous, supercilious , patronizing, and downright inaccurate (read: a libelous lie). The average serious Israeli yungerman wakes at 6.30 to be back from davening at 7.30 to take 2+ kids to gan/caretaker and help his wife with the morning routine, getting another 3+ kids out to school, running to make the hasa’a to kollel at 8.15, often grabbing a bite on the jasa’ah, or skipping breakfast altogether. The time on the hasa’a is also not wasted, often there will be a Seder in the van, or he will learn half oof the day’s daf, or m.b. yomis.
After for hours of breaking his head on the sugia, (how much does university studying actually strain your mental capacity?) he either naps on four chairs in the kollel or runs home to pick up the 2+ kids from gan. It’s 2.15 when he arrives home, (on Tuesdays he will spend 2 minutes outside his door flipping through the Yated which is delivered for free that day before tossing it in the receptacle.) 3.26 he is running again to catch the hasa’a, panting he takes his seat and pulls a pocket mishnayos out. 8 o’clock finds him walking through his front door, does some homework with his older kids, sits down for pita and chummous, and is out the door to night Seder and ma’ariv. At eleven he writes/types some of his chidushim/sikumim of the day, and shmoozes with his wife. At 12 he comforts his 2 year old who woke up crying, hopefully by one he’s in bed, often chazzering the morning’s limud in his head so he’ll be able to jump right back into it in the morning. At 3 a.m. he makes a bottle for the newborn, and at 6.30 his alarm clock rings. This is an atzel?!?
Daya Zooger- “(how much does university studying actually strain your mental capacity?)”
I dont know- you try taking a 120 multiple choice ADVANCED ANATOMY final in 120 minutes. Then tell me your brain doesn’t hurt…
Just read on this site: “Toldos Avraham Yitzchak Rebbe Undergoes Surgery To Have Pacemaker Implanted”
I will think, that doctors were Jews, who went to college/medical school.
With all my respect to HaRav Moshe Hillel Hirsch, if he does not want his grandchildren will delivered by not Jewish doctors/ midwives, some Jews have to go to college.
DZ: sorry to rain on your rant, but totally no shaychus to our discussion. (I actually smiled.) Try reading what I said again.
“shtusim of history, psychology”
History is something every Jew needs to learn. Much of the Tanakh narrative is historical.
Psychology is an empirical science and as long as you remember that, it is absolutely no challenge to Torah.
gavra, your quote: ‘OURtorah, a maamin believes that Hashem gives what he wants us to have, regardless of hishtadlus. Nevertheless, hishtadlus is a chiyuv.’
A huge Machlokes in Machshava, and certainly not pashut. Certainly here, where many would say that not getting an education nowadays is Atzlus and a choice not to do appropriate Hishtadlus, it is much less Pashut.
My take: to chalk up the decision a yungerman makes not to pursue a higher education to atzlus is wrong.
Besides, this entire conversation is basically moot, because studies show that the salary/income gap between those who have degrees and those who do not is closing steadily.
Daya Zooger: While the income gap may be closing, that is only for those who have jobs. If you look at the unemployment numbers for January 2015, it says people with Bachelors degrees or higher have a 2.8 unemployment rate. Those with Associate’s degrees have a 5.2 rate. High school graduates with no college are at 5.4. And people who didn’t even finish high school are at 8.5.
So yes, once you find a job, you may make close to the same amount of money. But it’s far easier to find a job once you’ve graduated from college.
DZ, I guess I’ll have to explain.
The subject of this entire thread, as well as the letter from Rav Hirsch and my comments, is not the man in kollel, but the wife that supports him. And the Atzlus is if the wife doesn’t work hard enough and put in the hours needed for a non-professional job (such as running a small business), not (once again) the husband in Kollel.
GAW- once again, you try raising a family, running a buisness, shopping, cleaning and cooking etc. a few centuries ago women literally didn’t work. They stayed home and raised families. So why is t suddenly all on the woman to do something someone with 48 hours a day can’t even do?
No husband should learn Torah all day at the expense of a worn out, stressed out wife. Hashem clearly says that it is not only about learning the Torah it is about living it. Being married, raising families, hatch nissa orchid the list goes on and on. Thats why I don’t think anyone is saying learning is not doable, it’s just hard and you must be willing to compromise on things for the sake of the Rorah you are learning.
DaMoshe, statistics from whichever organization compiled them aren’t really relevant to our community, where there’s a lot of networking, and employers understand that lack of a degree is often not due to any lack of competence, but side reasons, such as occupation in yeshiva or reluctance to be in a college environment.
OURtorah – Halevai those families would be willing to live the way yidden did “a few centuries ago”. That is part of what Rav Hirsh is saying as well.
OURtorah, women have always worked. But they used to work at home raising families.
DaasYochid,
I don’t know if this letter exists or not, nor can I comment on the status of the various educational institutions being referred to. However, I think most who have commented here have missed the point.
The letter isn’t saying that because Hashem provides, we therefore do not need to do hishtadlus. It is saying that a certain type of hishtadlus is unacceptable, and as a result, we must avoid it, and use other means of hishtadlus, and even if it seems difficult, we must trust in Hashem to provide.
I got the overall point of the letter, and I agree with its descriptions of the dangers. I think the issue may be even more pronounced in Israel, because whereas in the U.S. most college instructors are non-Jewish and generally ignorant of and supportive of Orthodox Judaism, that is not the case in Israel.
What bothers me is that this letter, which was introduced by a poster whose OP is the sole post on the account, and then “confirmed” by the second post ever made by another user (can anyone else confirm it, btw?), are two things:
1. The writer goes out of his way to try and dispel a notion that rabbis are locked in ivory towers and unconcerned about the plight of kollel families. No, they are in the trenches with these families and feel their pain. My question: why would he assume that kollel families felt this way about their rabbis? I don’t think that they by-and-large do. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe the letter is not directed at kollel families, but that’s the way it reads to me.
2. Then, as an almost perfect foil for this earlier point, the writer’s sole example supporting the notion that the primary cause of the sense of poverty among kollel families is that they are living overindulgent lives is a claim that families must buy a new borsalino hat for each son at the start of every zman! Is that really a thing in Bnei Brak?? I don’t think so.
Avram: “old man” also vouched for the letter’s bonafides. Also, despite a couple of posters saying they cannot find this letter posted anywhere else, I easily found it (by googling the first sentence of the letter) posted over a month ago on the unofficial website of the Hebrew Yated that for the last 15 years has been posting translated articles from the Yated.
Most of the dangers mentioned by the RY are equally applicable in the U.S.
1. The shock of going from an environment of kedusha to secularism.
2. Kefira in academia.
3. Influence from secular professor with improper values.
(I’m not sure where you get the idea that U.S. professors are “supportive of Orthodox Judaism”. U.S. universities are a major hotbed of liberalism and anti-religiosity [and anti-Israel, for that matter.])
4. Influence from secular students. (kefira discussions, mode of dress, etc.)
5. Even in chareidi colleges there are instructors who aren’t 100% yirei shamayim.
The RY may have been concerned about the perception you mention (i.e. ivory towers) due to the illegitimate external criticism made on these topics which inevitably filters back into our communities. About the Borsalino thing, maybe there’s some kind of mishegas going around the more well-to-do families in EY about frequently getting a new hat. Who knows; there are certainly far worse bad habits in the secular world.
A little information about the Rosh Yeshiva Rav Hirsch Shlita should put the authenticity issue to rest.
Born and raised in America, he is a talmid of Reb Aharon zt”l.
He is extremely highly respected in the Litvish torah world in EY
He is an advocate for Rav Shteinman Shlita’s leadership.
As a native English speaker, he comfortably conveys the Eretz Yisrael situation to the Americans. As an aside, it is embarrassing that he even needs an introduction, after all, he is the RY of Yeshivas Slabodka in Bnei Brak.
After all this, it is clear to me that he was speaking to a somewhat skeptical audience and purposely toned down his rhetoric. What is said in Litvish yeshivas in Israel regarding secular studies is far more uncompromising than the speech above.
Anyone who has an issue with the message the RY conveyed is either unfamiliar with the yeshivishe world in EY, not a part of this world, or is living in denial as to what da’as torah in EY says.
“1. The shock of going from an environment of kedusha to secularism.”
An argument against the isolationism in the charedi world.
“2. Kefira in academia.”
Science and history aren’t kefira. In most universities, you don’t have to take philosophy classes that would challenge traditional Jewish beliefs any more. But even so, if after years in yeshiva a single philosophy class could cause you to go off the derech, your yeshiva education must not have been very good. Rambam mastered Greek and Islamic philosophy, why can’t our top students?
“3. Influence from secular professor with improper values.
(I’m not sure where you get the idea that U.S. professors are “supportive of Orthodox Judaism”. U.S. universities are a major hotbed of liberalism and anti-religiosity [and anti-Israel, for that matter.])”
In two dozen years I have never encountered hostility to Orthodox Judaism. Even the anti-Israel activists aren’t very common — there is far more anti-Israel sentiment right here in the YWN coffee room. (Maybe the coffee room is asur?)
“4. Influence from secular students. (kefira discussions, mode of dress, etc.)”
Mode of dress??? Unless you live in a cave you are not going to be able to avoid seeing people dressing to a standard different from Orthodox Jews.
And would that today’s college students discussed kefira! At most campuses, partying, drinking, and sports are the main interests. And that brings up what should today be the real issue of concern, which is the licentious environment on many campuses today.
“5. Even in chareidi colleges there are instructors who aren’t 100% yirei shamayim.”
When you go against the mesorah and ban secular education you aren’t going to have teachers who are qualified to teach.
I should add that my own experience in academia is limited to the United States.
In College I have both a science and Liberal Arts degrees and I went to a secular college here in the US. Except for one Professor who was a reconstructionst Rabbi who once said something negative about Chazal Kefirah was never spoken and I took many classes (I did not take Philosophy as I find that boring)
Dr. Hall: As you said, your experience is limited to the United States. Part of being an Israeli Charaidi (which doesn’t exist anywhere else in the world) is the promotion of complete isolation from any outside influences, including other religious Jews who are not Charaidi. In that context, Rav Hirsh’s points make much sense.
Lior,
“old man” also vouched for the letter’s bonafides.
He did not; he stated that the letter satisfied his opinion of the Israeli Chareidi mindset. Your googling suggestion was much more helpful.
Most of the dangers mentioned by the RY are equally applicable in the U.S.
You and I are in basic agreement here. I’m not disputing the portion of the letter discussing college education. The dangers discussed are real. What raised red flags for me was the dichotomy between the first portion of the letter, which alluded to food insecurity, and the latter portion, which implied that kollel families made ostentatious purchases. Old man is right, I am not inside the Israeli Chareidi world, but among all the kollel families I know in my area, I don’t see any luxurious wasteful spending.
The RY may have been concerned about the perception you mention (i.e. ivory towers) due to the illegitimate external criticism made on these topics which inevitably filters back into our communities.
This is possible, and perhaps the R”Y would have a very different response to an individual than what he wrote in this letter which was targeted to a community as a whole. I guess I read it from the perspective of an individual.
“Rabbi, we don’t have enough money for food. Can I go to Kefira State University to get a degree in computer science?”
“No, for X, Y, and Z, reasons.”
“OK Rabbi, but what should I do about feeding my family?”
“Stop spending 4 bucks on Starbucks every weekday, that’ll save you $1252 a year.”
“But I don’t buy Starbucks…”
About the Borsalino thing, maybe there’s some kind of mishegas going around the more well-to-do families in EY about frequently getting a new hat. Who knows; there are certainly far worse bad habits in the secular world.
Maybe.
Lior: What do you think about an expansion of distance (e.g., online, or even through correspondence) courses and accelerated degree programs that allow people to attain a degree without having to go to a campus or take unrelated liberal arts coursework?
Online degree programs currently are not really accredited by the accediting organizations so a degree from the Univeristy of Phoenix really isnt worht the paper its printed on
Charlie, what exactly is your mesorah? Who has transmitted this mesorah to you? Please trace this ish mipi ish (this is the only meaning of mesorah which I am familiar with) as far back as you can.
Lior: What do you think about an expansion of distance (e.g., online, or even through correspondence) courses and accelerated degree programs that allow people to attain a degree without having to go to a campus or take unrelated liberal arts coursework?
I think its a great idea. (As a general rule I’m not a fan of wives working out of the home, but that’s another topic. If they have to work and need to learn a trade, distance courses seem to be a great option.)
DZ, I can’t speak for charlie, but my father went to college. His father went to college. My mother went to college. Her father began going for secular education, but was interrupted by the Nazis. Is that good enough for you?
DaMoshe: A mesorah doesn’t start with your grandfather. Did your great grandfather and any of your great great grandfathers go to college?
Charlie, what exactly is your mesorah? Who has transmitted this mesorah to you? Please trace this ish mipi ish (this is the only meaning of mesorah which I am familiar with) as far back as you can.
Please re-ask the question and answer (if it is not a violation of the rules regarding personal information) on a new thread, as it has no relevance to the OP or the discussion here. If you are trying to make an “argument by authority”, please state what your argument is and the authority on which you are attempting to base that argument.
P.S. DZ, what did you have for breakfast this morning? 🙂
DaMoshe: A mesorah doesn’t start with your grandfather. Did your great grandfather and any of your great great grandfathers go to college?
One could say the same thing about Kollel
Lior: I don’t know. I never knew them. My father’s father never spoke about his parents. My mother’s father spoke about his father. He was a wine merchant. I don’t know much else.
As I posted earlier in the thread, I do know that R’ Hutner zt”l went to university in Berlin, which was a hotbed of apikorsis. The Novominsker Rebbe went to Brooklyn College.
No Mesorahs go back to Moshe Rabbenu, they all started at some point.
Lior: That’s absurd. Until you can trace your use of the flush toilet back to Moshe Rabbeinu, I expect to hear from you that you use an outhouse from now on.
Lior: That’s absurd. Until you can trace your use of the flush toilet back to Moshe Rabbeinu, I expect to hear from you that you use an outhouse from now on.
Outhouses are explicitly mentioned in the pesukim, and I’m sure that anyone who claims to be following “ish mipi ish (this is the only meaning of mesorah which I am familiar with) as far back as they can” is still using an outhouse.
LOL
?? ????? ???????? ????, ?????? ??????????; ????????? ????????, ????. ?? ??????? ???????? ????, ???-????????; ???????, ????????????? ????, ???????????? ????, ?????????? ?????????? ???-????????.
Lior: That’s absurd. Until you can trace your use of the flush toilet back to Moshe Rabbeinu, I expect to hear from you that you use an outhouse from now on.
Before you think thats a silly statement, I belive there are chassidim who will not wear shirts with buttons . Only tie strings because buttons are too modern
Kinderlach, context! DM told DZ that he has a mesorah to go to college; and to prove it he said his tatte went to college, his mamme went to college and his zaida went to college. And all I said was that something having been done by your tatte, mamme and zaida is not how we define what is a mesorah. I didn’t come here and say you need a mesorah to go to college if you wanna go to college, like some of your responses to me presumed. Ribbono Shel Olam, please make sure people don’t learn Gemora like this!
Ourtorah – AMEN! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! I couldn’t agree with you more.
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