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Today the NY Post reported that the River Cafe is discriminating against religious Jewish couples.
The problem is: I have never seen such misinformed comments (at least this year) like the comments that were on this article. First of all, a bunch of people are claiming that the Cafe’s policy amounts to good business practices. You know, they are right. Well, at least if it wasn’t illegal. It’s blatant discrimination to charge a cover charge for people that are dressed up as religious Jews while letting anyone else sit freely, even to order without a $25 charge.
From Wikipedia- Discrimination is the prejudicial or distinguishing treatment of an individual based on his or her membership – or perceived membership – in a certain group or category.
It is pretty obvious from the definition that they are clearly guilty of discrimination if the alleged charges are true. It doesn’t matter whether or not that Jews abuse the establishment. The cafe has all the rights in the world to make money and take a cover charge, but as long as they treat everyone equally.
My second point is that discriminatory behavior doesn’t automatically amount to anti-semitism. As mentioned, someone may discriminate simply because its more profitable, not because the owner hates Jews. Yet, it is still illegal, and for good reasons. Imagine if an owner does some research and finds out that blacks don’t spend enough money or they drive away customers. So he bars them from coming in. Just imagine the riots.
My last bone to pick is with Maris Ha’ayin. People just throw that term around whenever they decide that someone else MUST be doing something wrong, but can’t figure out WHAT. There is NO maris ha’ayin in any scenario that doesn’t “look” or “feel” right unless Chazal have decided so. Neither do I think that anybody should feel that it’s wrong to go to some scenic and clean lounge or bar and have a couple of Kosher drinks. And if someone spots this obvious shidduch date and automatically assumes that they’re eating treif, the problem of dan lekuf zchus is on the viewer.
Imagine if they tried pulling this minimum order shtick on blacks because they noticed blacks weren’t ordering as much as whites.
It is unimaginable. Only Jews they realize they could probably get away with it. Jews don’t riot or have a Sharpton.
If they did it to blacks, besides getting their pants sued off and the EEOC filing a discrimination case against them, Sharpton would start a riot and the media would have a field day.
uneeq,
As far as Maris Ayin, these guys going to this waterfront treif restaurant is no different than if you saw a Yid sitting down in McDonald’s drinking soda.
There is no difference between this restaurant and a McDoanld’s.
Just because a viewer should be dan lkaf zchus, does not excuse the party from maris ayin. Otherwise you could say there is no such thing as MA (obviously incorrect) since everyone should always be DLZ.
It is unimaginable. Only Jews they realize they could probably get away with it. Jews don’t riot or have a Sharpton.
ever heard of Abe Foxman
in order to correct your post, RELIGIOUS JEWS don’t riot…..
uneeq – I agree with you and I posted almost the same as you on another Frum website.
vochindik -“As far as Maris Ayin, these guys going to this waterfront treif restaurant is no different than if you saw a Yid sitting down in McDonald’s drinking soda.
There is no difference between this restaurant and a McDoanld’s.
Just because a viewer should be dan lkaf zchus, does not excuse the party from maris ayin. Otherwise you could say there is no such thing as MA (obviously incorrect) since everyone should always be DLZ.”
You are very mistaken. While going into a McDonalds can possibly be Maris Ayin and shouldn’t be done without good reason, this place is not at all similar. Many people come to this place for the view. So it’s not just a restaurant, it’s also a tourist attraction. Therefore Maris Ayin wouldn’t apply.
correct,
its like going into a rest stop (mcdonalds) and going to the bathroom
Coffee addict
bizman hazeh the common rests stops like in the catskill mountains are not maris ayin because so many people go to the bathroom there its common sense that you are there to “rest.”
1. Why isn’t a hillul ha-Shem for an obviously frum Jew to go into a treff restaurant and sit down in the place where people eat? To any casual observer the obvious conclusion is that this a place where frum kids go to eat treff when their parents are looking.
2. Since the restaurant require those sitting down to purchase a certain minimum, and as long as the minimum is applied to everyone, why shouldn’t the restaurant remind customers of the minimum if they notice that a certain type of customer may be unware of it (i.e. a kosher customer, who is agreeing to pay the $25 minimum by merely requiresting a soda or a glass of water).
3. It would only be discrimination if they only had a minimum charge for Jews and not others, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. It seems the issue got in the news when a frum couple didn’t realize they had to pay $25 for a glass of water due to the minimum charge (probably written clearly in a menu, which, since it was all treff, they ignored).
This whole story is sad. Did we as Jews stoop so low that we need to be charged a cover charge because we’re cheap? Whatever happened to the hard working Jew who makes a a good salary and could afford more than $25 at least to tip? We should be ashamed to how cheap we’ve become.
wiy,
exactly and people go to this restaurant for the view
kfb: Get a grip.
Akuperma: Reread the Post story. They allow non-Jewish customers to spend less than $25. They ONLY enforce a minimum on Jews.
Uneeq and sushee- stop for a second and think about it. Why did this resteraunt only charge a minimum for Jews? It’s because we don’t spend any money there and the place loses money. I definitely think its discrimination but we do bring this upon ourselves.
Religious views don’t riot? Take a visit to meah shearim or ramat bet shemesh when they have a nice, civil riot and let me know if you’d like to revise that statement.
There are many parks in the area with the same view. There are alternative places to date. The restaurant has a right to make money, charge a cover charge. Targeting “gym rats” or a pattern of those who do not order or using terms as “top hats” and “strings is discriminating. But going to a restaurant and not ordering or ordering water is not appropriate either.
It shines badly on all jews. There are many jewish customers who use the restaurant and it is a disgrace that over and over, the frum get categorized and are represented to mean ALL JEWS. This behavior at the River Cafe is just not acceptable.
What people don’t realize is that it’s not just relevant to dating at non-kosher establishments.
A kosher restaurant manager once told me that the daters are the least profitable customers as they sit and schmooze for hours and don’t order that much. But he understandably didn’t institute any cover charge, that’s life.
I don’t know what percentage of river cafe customers are frum daters, but I’m sure there are many other customers that come for the view there which aren’t profitable. They just aren’t as easily identifiable, so they just overcharged the religious couples. I understand the business principle behind it — instituting a min. charge for all will alienate customers, even those that spend more. However it’s still discrimination.
Point is use common sense when dating, but don’t be so quick to chastise daters as if they are doing something terribly wrong. If you ever read a non-jewish paper or even website they usually have ideas for free or cheap dating spots, we’re not the only ones taking advantage of freebies.
Incidentally, this is not the only place such discrimination exists, I’ve heard of a u-pick farm that only charges an entry fee on chol hamoad. Do we really pick so little, is it a form of crowd control or are we easy targets?
What heimishe restaurant would allow 2 people to sit at a table for three hours and drink nothing but water?
Want nice views and cheap drinks? Go to 7-11 for a big gulp and head over to central park or the staten island ferry.
“I’ve heard of a u-pick farm that only charges an entry fee on chol hamoad. Do we really pick so little, is it a form of crowd control or are we easy targets?”
Here is a little story. I was the holder of a seasonal picking pass for the third season at said pick your own, and had just gone to the farm 2 weeks before rosh hashana, I was surprised when I pulled up the 2nd day chol hamoed succos and was told there is a fee per person. I showed my pass and expressed surprise at the fee, it was then that the farmer explained that after “yesterdays disaster” of trampled crops, crops picked and left on the ground and garbage strewn all over the place he would charge an entrance fee to offset his other losses and damage.
So perhaps instead of asking .”Do we really pick so little, is it a form of crowd control or are we easy targets?” You might want to ask, why were we not careful so as not to destroy this mans farm. If you think he is exagerating, why don’t you make the trip to Hightstown on several random days in June, July and August and again on Chol Hamoed Succos and come to your own conclusion and learn the answers to the questioned you posed.
I think there are two distinct issues here. The first (just because one has to be first) is whether the restaurant was discriminating. It seems that it was, and that is indefensible.
But the second question is how we should react to this story, and my initial reaction is that perhaps we should take a lesson about the ethics of doing things like going to an expensive lounge and just buying water (or nothing). It doesn’t only mean this place, either. Hotels and some other establishments understand that there’s a certain gray area in which they need to cater to non-paying customers, but we should go lifnim mishuras hadin and not push it to the limit.
“I definitely think its discrimination but we do bring this upon ourselves.”
That may be so but that is the typical blame the victim not the perp shtick. I don’t think that should be the main agenda of a Jew when approached by antisemitism. I never heard a victim of rape say; well I was dressed provocatively. I understand that this forum is for open discussion among Jews but I am not sure what compels one to just blame the victim.
We can only fix our shortcomings (if any). Perhaps as a community we have to understand that not everything is coming to us, or that every kuntz in the book, while technically legal, must be implemented. Yes, one has every right to sit at a bar and drink a soda for 8 hours (assuming there is no clearly posted limit per customer), but, do we have to if we know it annoys the heck out of the establishment? This does not exonerate illegal behavior, nor should it encourage others to go and sit for hours on end either.
Yes, one has every right to sit at a bar and drink a soda for 8 hours (assuming there is no clearly posted limit per customer)
Actually, no such right exists. A food establishment can ask someone to leave the premises. Even if there is no posted policy allowing them to. It is their private property and they can uninvite you.
But what they cannot legally do is have a different policy for Jews than for gentiles.
They can NOT legally “uninvite you”, nor can they refuse to service you, if you are patronizing their establishment in a manner consistent with the law and clearly posted policy. Private property is not an excuse in an establishment open to the public. They have every right to establish rules for admission to and use of their establishment (as long as they are legal). Once someone is invited in, unless they are breaking the law (they should call the police) or violate the clearly posted conditions of use they may not legally decide to “uninvite” a customer.
Who cares. The view is 100 times better from outside, the park is stunning, and theres a vending machine somewhere nearby.
So, anyone here davka went there since this story broke? I would.
Why do Jews insist on going where we arent welcome? We dont belong with the goyim. In fact Im bothered by the whole dating matzav where we go to hotel lobbies. I have been in some lobbies and the pritzus was a real issue. Its very difficult being on a date controlling your eyes and thoughts while surrounded by fashionably undressed attractive non Jewish women who stopped getting dressed half way through the process and left their house that way.
PBA: Would you pay? That is the important question.
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