Dilemma involving Jewish singer(s)

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  • November 25, 2014 5:56 am at 5:56 am #1044884
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    He says it specifically based on the Gemara of ???? ????? ??? ??? ????.

    I will (hopefully) post the quote tomorrow. By the way, what he concludes is that you should me motzi it with a shehakol on something else. Stay tuned for the full details tomorrow (hopefully).

    November 25, 2014 6:10 am at 6:10 am #1044885
    lookingforsem
    Member

    patal assur – where does it say that your not aloud to listen to not jewish music you may be making the best point so far:)

    November 25, 2014 6:14 am at 6:14 am #1044886
    Redleg
    Participant

    To my mind, the only authentic Jewish musical forms since churban Bayis are chazonus and klezmer. All other Jewish music is derivative of Gentile music.

    November 25, 2014 7:33 am at 7:33 am #1044887
    leahleh
    Participant

    All Jewish Music has been influenced by the music of the countries in which Jews lived. If you listen to some Chasidic Niggunim and then listen to Russian Folk songs or Ukranian folk songs or Polish folk songs of the 1800’s, you will hear remarkable similarities. Jewish food similarly is influenced by the countries we lived in- Perogies, lox, Kneidlack, Goulash, pizza, sushi- all these are from other cultures. Even Yiddish, the current heiligeh loshon (holy language of Jews) has words lifted from Polish and German- tatte is the Polish word for father. Getting back to music- when a song is written by a Jewish singer, and it inspires your Yiddishkeit, and it uplifts and moves you Ina positive way, then why should that be bad? What does it matter if the composer was influenced by some other music? Is Tottie, father, a reminder of Polish anti-Semites? Does Hungarian Goulash make you think you are eating food of the Progroms? What could be better than elevating something in the world and making it Jewish and good? Goulash is delicious! And kosher! And Bubby made it! If you do not enjoy music by a Jewish singer, for any reason, DON’T LISTEN! If you enjoy it, then listen! If you enjoy older type music, listen to that, if you like Chazzanish music, listen to that. Not everything should be so agonizing.

    November 25, 2014 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1044888
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Here are the main quotes:

    Magid Ta’aluma Berachos 41a:

    ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ????? ???? ?”? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?”? ?? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??”? ???

    Magid Ta’aluma Berachos 43a:

    ???’ ??”? ??? ???? ???’ ?? ?????? ????? ??”? ???’ ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?”? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?”? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????

    ????? ??”? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??”? ??? ??????? ????? ?”? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?”? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?”? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??

    November 25, 2014 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1044890
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Here are links to the Magid Ta’aluma so you can see the entire context:

    The first one (Read the whole page until ??”?):

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=4730&st=&pgnum=260&hilite=

    The second one (Just the paragraph which begins at the bottom of the first column and goes somewhat into the second column):

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=4730&st=&pgnum=268&hilite=

    November 27, 2014 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1044892
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Back to the discussion of non-Jewish music:

    Igros Moshe Yoreh Deiah 2:46:

    ???? ????? ?????? ????”? ?”? ??”? ??”? ??”? ????? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ?????? ????”?

    ??? ???????? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?”? ?????? ??? ?”? ???????? ??? ?? ???????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??”? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????”? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?”? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????”? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?”? ??? ??? ???”? ????? ?? ?’ ?????’ ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ???????? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ?????’ ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??”? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ????”? ??”? ??”? ????? ????? ??”? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????”? ???? ??? ?? ???”? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ?”? ????? ?????? ??”? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??”? ??”? ???? ??”? ???? ?

    ????? ????? ?????

    ??? ?????????

    November 28, 2014 7:01 am at 7:01 am #1044893
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    And in Igros Moshe Yoreh Deiah 2:111 he writes:

    ????? ????? ???????? ??????? ??”? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??”? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???????? ?? ?”? ?????? ????”? ?”? ?”? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ????”? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ?? ??? ?”? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ?”? ???”? ?? ?”? ???? ????? ????????? ???”? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ????”? ?? ???? ????? ??”? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???????? ??”? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ??????? ?”? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???????? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??”? ???????? ?? ????? ???? ???????? ??”? ???? ?”? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???”? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??”? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ???”? ?? ???????? ????? ???”?

    November 30, 2014 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1044895
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Igros Moshe Yoreh Deiah 2:46:

    That was either a typo, or I just don’t know how to convert Hebrew letters into numbers. Either way, it’s 2:56 not 2:46.

    November 30, 2014 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1044896
    Randomex
    Member

    The asterisks enclose a point I feel is relevant to the discussion.

    1st teshuva:

    (About the law of listening to songs of idol-worshippers, Rosh Chodesh Menachem Av, Taf-Shin-Lamed, [something], my friend, the

    honorable Mr. Yerachmiel Pinchas Friedman shlita:)

    Behold, the songs that the Christians sing in their church, it is certainly forbidden to listen to them even by means of a radio and even by means of a phonograph.

    Not only the songs which they sing now but even those that they sang previously, even though they have now stopped singing those songs, it is forbidden.

    Also a song that any Christian composed for a verse from Tehillim in the language that they have translated it into is forbidden, for [stam/without contrary information] the songs that the Christians compose for verses of Tehillim are to sing to their [tiflus/idol (in this context)], which is forbidden.

    *If one knows that the intention of the song’s composer was not to sing [for their service/to their idol] but merely to sing for the pleasure of singing, even though the composer of the song is a Christian and an [idol-worshipper], there is nothing forbidden in this, but [stama/without contrary information], one should assume that it is for their [service/idol] and forbidden, even for the sake of one’s livelihood.*

    (NOTE: Practical discussion stops from here until the last point.)

    See Chagigah, folio 15, that Shmuel answered about a man as great in Torah as Acher having [gone out to a bad tarbus/gone off the derech, in modern parlance] that it was because Greek song did not cease from his mouth.

    Rashi there explains: This is astonishing, for could it be that because of the prohibition against song after the Destruction (of the Bais Hamikdosh), which is a Rabbinic prohibition, he [went out to a bad tarbus/went off the derech]?

    (NOTE: I think this is the end of the Rashi quotation.)

    Also, it is even more astonishing, for the prohibition is only in a place of feasting, per the language of the Mishna in Sotah, folio 48, and so it is in Rashi, Gittin folio 7.

    Tosafos there writes that it is proper to be stringent about one who is accustomed (to hear singing [music?]) also when he gets up and when he goes to sleep, which he brings from the Yerushalmi. The wording of Tosafos implies that this is not an actual prohibition, only that it it is proper to be stringent, but in the Tur, Section 560, it is implied that according to Tosafos, it is an actual prohibition for one who is accustomed, but song, there is no prohibition of.

    At any rate, even in the forbidden manner, it is not a prohibition such that this should have any relation to [minus/heresy], as the Maharsho asked in Chiddushei Agaddos.

    Rashi’s intention requires looking into, for it is not possible to explain that this was a punishment for this sin of song, for it is not possible to punish (a man) that he become a [min/heretic] and a wicked man, which is something that is dependent on a man’s free will, and this is not part of the matter of reward and punishment.

    Therefore the Maharsho concludes that it was song of idol-

    worshippers, for this prohibition is of the prohibitions of idol-worship, which are related to [minus/heresy], and if so, we see that it is a great prohibition, {which / for it} can lead chas v’shalom to [minus/heresy].

    There is also [m’meila/included?] as well the prohibition of mentioning the names of idols, which is forbidden by the [lav/negative commandment] of [Lo yishoma al picha/They shall not be heard via your mouth], which is forbidden even in case of necessity, as stated in Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Dei’ah, Section 147 Sub-section 1.

    Behold I am his friend who blesses him, (signature)

    November 30, 2014 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1044897
    Randomex
    Member

    I hadn’t realized that I needed to ask not to turn it into a

    “What is Jewish music” discussion as well. 🙂 Ah well, it’s all for the best, though it’ll take some time to go through it all.

    PAA:

    Would you mind posting the teshuvah about Shlomo Carlebach as well?

    November 30, 2014 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1044898
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Inaccurate translation. I didn’t read the whole thing, but you misunderstood what R’ Moshe was doing with Rashi in Sotah.

    November 30, 2014 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #1044899
    Vogue
    Member

    Just to add something: I am a college student who spends at least two hours a day driving between multiple campuses, my house and other appointments, I spend at least 2-3 hours waiting for classes or other things and spend at least an hour and a half exercising a day especially in the morning so I can concentrate in class better. Its impossible to listen to heimishe music for six hours a day between all of this so I usually split it half and half. Doesnt make me less frum though. Its just about not driving yourself insane.

    November 30, 2014 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1044900
    Randomex
    Member

    CORRECTION:

    “Rashi there explains: This is astonishing,”

    should be

    “Rashi’s explanation there is astonishing,”

    (That’s in Chagigah, DaasYochid.)

    CORRECTION:

    “feasting” should be “drinking”

    (That’s in Sotah, DaasYochid.)

    November 30, 2014 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1044901
    Randomex
    Member

    Vogue:

    I am not sure what you are getting at.

    If you were from a community and peer group in which the norm was not to listen to non-Jewish music, and you had not previously listened to it yourself, do you think your schedule would have caused you to take it up?

    November 30, 2014 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #1044902
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Randomex:

    I assume you are referring to this one, even though he doesn’t mentionany names.

    Igros Moshe Even Ha’ezer 1:96:

    ???? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ??????

    ?”? ???? ???”? ??”? ????? ???”? ????? ????? ????”?

    ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???”? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??”? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?????’ ??? ??”? ???’ ???? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???”? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?”? ?? ??”? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???

    ????? ?????”? ??”? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??”? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ????? ????? ????? ?”? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????”? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??”? ?????? ???? ??? ????”? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?”? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?”? ?”? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???????

    ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????”? ??”? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????????? ??? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??”? ??”? ???? ??”? ??”? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ????”? ??”? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ?????”? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???????? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??????

    ????? ??????? ?? ????????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ??

    ??????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?”? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????”? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????????? ??? ?????? ??? ??”? ?? ???????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??”? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???”? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????

    ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ???????? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ???”? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????”? ???? ???”? ???? ?????? ??”? ?? ??”? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??”? ???”? ??? ???? ???????? ????? ?”? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????”? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??????????? ???? ???? ????”? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???”? ??????? ?????? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???????? ?”? ?”? ????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??”? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ??”? ?????? ??”? ?”? ???????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??”? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???”? ???? ??????

    ????? ??????

    ??? ?????????

    [Emphasis added]

    November 30, 2014 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #1044903
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    And once we’re posting all these teshuvos, we may as well post the one where he talks about listening to music in the first place.

    Igros Moshe Orach Chaim 1:166:

    (This is just the conclusion)

    ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???????? ?????? ?? ????”? ??????? ??? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??”? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??”? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????”? ??????? ???”? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????”? ??????, ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??”? ????’ ?? ????? ??? ?? ????”? ???”? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????’ ????”? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??”? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ??”? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????????

    ?????

    ??? ?????????

    November 30, 2014 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1044904
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Vogue, do you think there’s something wrong with listening to non-Jewish music? If not, you don’t need to justify it with your schedule.

    If yes, your schedule doesn’t justify it.

    November 30, 2014 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #1044905
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Vogue, do you think there’s something wrong with listening to non-Jewish music? If not, you don’t need to justify it with your schedule.

    If yes, your schedule doesn’t justify it.

    I’m guessing there’s a middle ground where it’s not ideal but it’s ok.

    December 1, 2014 12:30 am at 12:30 am #1044906
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m guessing there’s a middle ground where it’s not ideal but it’s ok.

    I agree that certain types of music fit into that category. But if that’s what’s being discussed, I wouldn’t agree to the statement, “Doesnt make me less frum though”.

    It should be noted, that although vogue didn’t specify which music she listens to so this isn’t directed at her, much of the non-Jewish music being produced today clearly crosses the line of “not ideal” and is m’gareh yetzer hora and is outright assur.

    December 1, 2014 6:53 am at 6:53 am #1044907
    Vogue
    Member

    Very true but there isn’t enough heimish music out there to listen that many hours. I have to resort to (guilty) illegal downloading. The non Jewish music I can get for free from what I had pre frumkite. Music is expensive… there are only so many free songs on mostly music and eventually its annoying to keep on listening to rookies.

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