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“This is like two people on a sinking boat, arguing whether to sail to the shore or to try to close the hole. Try both and see what works.”
Dear Always,
I couldn’t agree with you on this more.
Which begs the question, what do both bring to the table?
Dear Karl,
“only true Torah frum will survive”
Who is that today? Better, who will that be tomorrow? It’s a small number. Being part of the MO or the YV doesn’t guarantee any level of observance.
Dear Avira,
Let me correct one minor point. A mechallel shabbos is still part of am yisrael. He can be included in a minyan. But if he does it להכעיס than he cannot be counted.
Dear Lakewhut,
Having read over the whole thread, it seems to me that your only making one real point. The college experience has drastically changed across the USA since the 1950s. It’s foolish of the MO to still tie together Torah and college.
Fair point.
Dear Americin,
The Netziv and Reb Chaim strongly believed in knowing the entire Torah. Volozhin started each mesechta at the begining and continued until the end. They were against the musar movement. They did not advocate halachah like today. They openly displayed friendship to all kinds of yidden that they vehemently disagreed with. And they were much less modern in the nineteenth century.
Dear Ujm,
So Rabbis Schwab and Soloveitchik disagree. The struggle they describe is still on going. The Lakewood led resurgence doesn’t change the dynamics. What is your point?
“One big difference is that in MO shuls I am always greeted and given invitations. The more chareidei shuls think that if you found the shul, you can or did find everything else“
N0mesorah,
I totally relate, I think MO are very big into individual hachnasas orchim but that goes into the geder of chessed and when you take chessed to the extreme it turns into znus (which is what we are seeing to a smaller degree with mixed interactions)
Dear All,
The very real problems of Modern Orthodoxy that have been stated and repeated again and again in this thread pale in comparison to the holier-than-thou problems of am ha’aratzus the American Yeshiva world is currently ignoring.
Avaira,
According to logic:
The crooks, who are mechallel almost everything in Choshen Mishpat are a large majority of the Chasidic population, whereas the law-abiding are a distinct minority of the Chasidic population. That’s certainly the case with the national/international Chasidic communities. But even within moderate sects the swindlers significantly outnumber the law-abiding.
dofi – puk chazi. Go for a stroll in MO neighborhoods and, if you’re a woman, look at how untznius the women are, and if you’re a man, ask your mother/wife/sister to do it for you. It’s not claiming that I saw someone say something somewhere and now I expect you to believe me.
I have nothing to hide – go out and look at what goes on in MO shuls, schools, streets…they don’t hide it at all. Look at the media that they publish, their student newspapers, their social media representatives, their crazy leftist rabbis and rabbits – it’s all on public display.
Imagine asking your wife to go see how tznius other woman are….
Avaira,
I can rewrite your puk chazi post for every real or imagined breach in Chasidic and Yeshivish communities. What’s particularly galling is your unending stream of hatred towards those who put food on your table. Don’t be so quick to think a charedi school would hire an insecure flip-out with a big chip on his shoulder and a constant need to prove something.
Dofi, one spends time in a Torah community and sees mostly kedushah; have you been to both places? Have you been outside your basement lately?
Do you not notice that your ad hominem insults only make you look unintelligent and belligerent?
Dear Avira,
Nobody sees the inside of your head. At this point, you might as well be trolling.
To review all we’ve learned, mostly from Avaira’s logical and loving posts, Modern Orthodoxy:
– looks similar to conservative Judaism
– is mechallel almost everything in the Torah
– has open synagogue parking lots on Shabbos
– has almost no Torah knowledge at all
– accepts feminism, evolution, pritzus, LGBT
– are stragglers who contribute neither Torah nor gemilus chasadim
– represents illegitimate judaism and fake jewish values
– is robbing Jewish children of avodas Hashem and olam haba
– are ignorant sinners with anti torah philosophies
– are moving more to the samech mem
– is like how the Arizal writes that goyim have no tzad tov at all
– is born of haskalah and its leaders were all soaked in it
– is practically all going OTD
– presents the greatest ideological threat to the continuity of JudaismIn addition:
– there’s not one goyishe value they haven’t taken steps towards
– they almost all go mixed swimming
– their phone usage in shul is geferlach
– their davening during the week is too fast to schmooze
– their chesed turns into znus
– they purposely hire rabbis who won’t criticize their lifestylesThis is all the fault of their fake rabbinic leadership who:
– encourage institutionalized ignorance, heresy and sinfulness to thrive
– are desensitized to multi-generational violations of torah
– are too afraid to call out the dangerous liberal elementsSo which group of Jews should get bashed next, Yeshivish or Chasidish?
Dofi, pretty spot on except for 3 things – i never said that MO has open synagogue parking lots on Shabbos, and i never said that MO is robbing children of olam haba(it’s a complicated issue), and i also didn’t say that they are mechalel everything in judaism – just a lot of it.
I also didn’t say that most go off whatever derech you can call MO – i said more of them go off than elsewhere, which is statistically a reality, both in eretz yisrael and here(so you can’t make the argument of “mo schools have frei kids” – yes, the 50+ percent point was off because of that, but the drop out rate in eretz yisroel is 20%, which scales pretty close to how it is here, according to the Nishma study i cited above)
While we’re on the subject of the nishma study…they found that only 62% of MO men wear tefilin everyday, around the same amount are fully observant in shabbos and kashrus, and only 58% of married men are fully observant in taharas mishpacha.
So it’s more than just puk chazi – these are studies done by MO people of MO degeneracy and sinfulness.
And these are the ones who admit to it.
And let’s not forget about all the other mitzvos; these are just the ones that are the most obvious.
“Modern Orthodoxy:
– looks similar to conservative Judaism”Dofi: HaGaon HaRav Ahron Kotler ZTV’K”L said exactly that. That MO tries to do the same thing as the Conservative and Reform. See my comment on the previous page providing Rav Ahron’s quote and the exact citation where you can find it in Mishnas Rebi Ahron, to verify for yourself that Rav Ahron said it.
Will you now dismiss and disparage HaGaon HaRav Ahron Kotler the same way yesterday you dismissed and disparaged HaGaon HaRav Eliezer Ginsberg?
n0 > what do both bring to the table?
right, I think this the right question.
YV is definitely better at producing large families and large number of cheder teachers, and keeping young people away from trouble. MO is better at producing people with balanced lifestyle that integrate Torah into normal life, being able to apply Torah concepts to finding time to learn, doing business and paying taxes, and relating to the world knowledge.
In terms of best Teachers in the higher sense of this world, then I find people who combine both approaches are the most successful. This include either more “modern” Rabbis, like R Soloveichik [who actually says that Jewish community is organized around a Teacher, not around political party], who at the same time have solid learning, or more traditional Rabbis who to some degree interacted with the modern world, such as Lubavitcher Rebbe. I find similar characteristics in Teachers I meet personally – they are either Modern with solid yeshivish background or Yeshivish who experienced modern world in some way.
Aaq, the studies i quoted show that MO is an abysmal failure at producing observant Jews.
I failed to mention, which should come as no shock, that according to the Nishma study, only 51% of MO jews fully believe that all of the oral torah is true, 64% believe that Hashem gave the written Torah to the Jews at har Sinai, 51% believe that Hashem guides their lives, and, quite depressingly, only 46% believe that Hashem loves them and that everything that happens is for the best.
They have an easier time…sort of, in believing in Hashem creating the world, with 74% fully believing this. It’s no coincidence that the only belief system here which doesn’t directly obligate one in mitzvos or have Hashem in their lives, is this, and it’s the one that is most popular.
But it means that statistically, a majority of MO people are not full believers. It’s really not that different from conservative, is it?
Joseph,
I simply complied a list of all the loving things you and Avaira had to say about MO. You seem a bit defensive, why is that?
You consider R. Lazer Ginsberg to be on par with the Gadol Hador, Harav Aharon Kotler, zt”l? He’s not my Rav and I’m not bound by his psak. I certainly don’t have to respect what he wrote in the neighborhood rag “for the benefit of the community”.
I am amused reading these posts about mixed swimming and then talking about 100-125 years ago.
Our family was in the clothing business, both manufacturing and retailing from 1890-1995.
Bathing attire 100 years ago was more tznius than average non-frum street clothing of the past 60 years.
There were no exposed midriffs, both men and women wore full tops, no short, shorts and the bathing costumes were a dark heavy material, ladies in long sleeves.
Dofi, do you have an answer to the statistical facts quotee above? You can find them easily by googling nishma 2017 modern orthodox study
Avaira,
I have visited many communities in the U.S. and also in other countries. Yeshivish, Chasidish, Yekke, Sfardi, Chabad and others too varied to be labeled. They all have tremendous strengths and they all have challenges, sometimes daunting ones. I’ve seen numerous MO communities over the past thirty years and the sheer growth in their learning, attention to mitzvos, pursuit of truth and generosity towards all Jews is remarkable.
Ungrateful people such as yourself can be supported by a community, pretend to love them, then spend every spare minute condemning them for their faults. I get it; you grew up MO, are still insecure and immature so you’re compelled to bash them incessantly. But the same can be done to any group of Jews and it accomplishes nothing. You feel that MO threatens Jewish continuity and that it’s holding back Mashiach but in reality it’s hateful behavior like yours that’s doing so.
@CTLAWYER I wish I can find a better citation, but sifrei halacha state that men and women cannot swim together, regardless of how they’re dressed.
@AviraDeArah We’ve discussed this ad nauseum. There is a certain population of Jews who consider themselves “Orthodox” that don’t really openly follow the Torah. This has always been the case. This will continue to be the case ad biyas goel b’mheira v’yamaynu. If I would have to guess, a huge percentage of them are Sephardi, since non-frum Sephardim didn’t have a history with Reform and Conservative, so most of them just stuck with “parking the car around the corner on Shabbat” style Judaism. It is a problem that people don’t follow Torah and mitzvos. But that isn’t a Modern Orthodox problem, that’s just a problem problem. MO just happens to appeal to these people more than most other groups. You statistical facts are important, but not really anything of note. Fakhert, it shows that the number of people who consider themselves Orthodox yet don’t try to follow Torah and Mitzvos is shrinking and they have no support nor leadership that encourages their behavior.Because, like I’ve said, at the end of the day we need to first take the beam out of our own eyes and accept that the current Yeshivish trends are a much greater danger to us than non-frum Jews.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“producing people with balanced lifestyle that integrate Torah into normal life”
And this, right here, is the epitome of the world view that has AviraDeArah up in arms. Hopefully Yserbius123 can acknowledge that the “YV” do not hold a monopoly on the “holier than thou” mentality.
CTL: Thank you for sharing that vital factoid. It goes on to demonstrate how degenerate the attire of the Western, American led, culture has deteriorated to over the last 60 years.
AviraDeArah,
“While we’re on the subject of the nishma study…”
I took a very brief look at the summary of the survey – and they note that 12% of the respondents self-identify as “open-orthodox”, and 22% as LWMO. A lot of the MO posters here exclude these groups from their own definition of Modern Orthodox. The survey summary noted a polarization within modern orthodoxy, with the right-leaning going more towards the right, and the left-leaning going more towards the left. This seems somewhat similar to the mechitza wars in the mid-20th century US, which ultimately resulted in shuls that were strictly Orthodox, and shuls that were Conservative. Though the flashpoint issues are different today, ein chadash tachas hashemmesh.
GadolHadofi,
“So which group of Jews should get bashed next, Yeshivish or Chasidish?”
Like they don’t already? Why do MO get the exclusive mantle of victimhood? I have been in many MO environments, and they give just as good as they get, if not more. I’m in full agreement with the “let’s not bash” philosophy – though I don’t think debating a legitimate tayna is bashing. But to use the “bashing is bad” as a shield while wielding a club to bash others?
Lakewhut,
The Chasidim take over the towns….
& you wonder why people hate us?Dofi: Do you accept what, as you referred to, the Gadol Hador, Harav Aharon Kotler, zt”l said about Modern Orthodoxy?
@Yserbius
I was not saying it was allowed. I was commenting on the type of bathing costume worn 100+ years ago (before air conditioning) and why it may have been toleratedAvram,
No single group of Jews has an “exclusive mantle of victimhood” and none deserves this kind of bashing. My point was that this thread became open season on a specific group and the worst bashers would react with righteous indignation if their group was in the gunsights.
“they note that 12% of the respondents self-identify as “open-orthodox”, and 22% as LWMO. A lot of the MO posters here exclude these groups from their own definition of Modern Orthodox.”
Avram: Isn’t that a No True Scotsman? That would be similar, perhaps, to Ultra-Orthodox excluding ganovim and molesters from their own definition of Ultra-Orthodox.
Avram, as with kany studies, it’s important to look at the raw data and not focus on the conclusions that the pollster makes. For instance, nishma proudly states that “faith is strong among MO” because over 90% do not deny or have strong doubts about some ikrei enunah. No no no. They don’t get away that easy. When you look at their data, it says a large amount “tend to believe” but not “fully believe” – it’s a nice way of saying that they don’t really believe like a jew who has emunah shlaima. It’s like my rebbe, rav yaakov shweitzer used to say about maskilim; they’re modeh bemiktzas begalui and kofer hakol b’seser.
Dofi – so, when i say things baaed on observation, I’m wrong. When i say things based on statistics, I’m wrong…. because of your observations?
Sorry buddy, you’re not convincing anyone with that
Avram, 91% of respondents in the Nishma study were ashkenazi, so your point about sefardim, while valid in other ways, does not pertain to this study, which shows the lack of observance, belief and jewish values of the full gamut of MO, minus the “RWMO” which respond to the questions in a similar way that a yeshiva person would hypothetically respond. But there are other questions which aren’t addressed, such as observance of other mitzvos…what RWMOs responses would be would be interesting to know.
Dofi, i would criticize the yeshiva world too if its members were involved in institutionalized sin and heresy, but they’re not…and if you have proof that they are, then provide it and we’ll express our intolerance for sin, no matter who does it and what color yarmulke they wear.
Sorry avram, i meant the sefardi comment to yserb – i misread
Gadolhadofi,
“No single group of Jews has an “exclusive mantle of victimhood” and none deserves this kind of bashing. My point was that this thread became open season on a specific group and the worst bashers would react with righteous indignation if their group was in the gunsights.”
That’s fair. I will admit that I have not followed this thread closely, so I may have missed a lot, but the “those in glass houses” retorts seem to be bringing up faults of “Yeshivish” or “Chassidish” people that reflect personal failures to maintain ideals, rather than problematic shittos. Do you feel AviraDeArah is doing the same?
ujm,
“Avram: Isn’t that a No True Scotsman?”
Yes, it could be. However, I think that the left and right within MO are heading towards a schism. The open-orthodox have already started the process, giving their movement a unique name and establishing separate communal infrastructures. Some clear lines in the sand have been drawn, though some will say not clear enough. Given that, I think there’s legitimacy to a MO person declaring that someone holding certain OO “shittos” are outside the bounds of MO.
“That would be similar, perhaps, to Ultra-Orthodox excluding ganovim and molesters from their own definition of Ultra-Orthodox.”
So similar to what I wrote to Gadolhadofi, I think there’s a difference between those within a group who fail as people, and questions about the shittos a group holds. This debate is not making those differences clear at all.
Dear Avira,
The only reason the yesivishe velt is not being tried for institutionalized sin and heresy, is because they themselves spend too much energy on prosecuting random yidden for institutionalized sin and heresy. It’s a pathetic situation. And it says a lot that you miss the irony.
Dear Ujm,
Rav Aharon says they make allowances to keep the people attached somewhat to Torah. It could be applied to today’s Lakewood as well.
AviraDeArah,
“Avram, as with kany studies, it’s important to look at the raw data and not focus on the conclusions that the pollster makes.”
I didn’t rely on or reference any of the subjective statements made by Nishma. I just noted that they included OO and LWMO respondents in the survey.
Avaira,
Who appointed you to highlight the faults of a specific group of Jews then brand those as “institutionalized”? There have been too many incidents of legal/financial wrongdoing in Chasidic and Yeshivish communities over the past few years to ignore. Yet there has been scant public outcry from Rebbeim, Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim. Should we conclude that such wrongdoing has been “institutionalized”, that these leaders tolerate and even encourage such behavior?
n0mesorah,
“The only reason the yesivishe velt is not being tried for institutionalized sin and heresy”
What heresy is promulgated in the “yeshivishe velt”? And who would conduct the trials?
Dear Always,
I really doubt it.
The YV and MO are on the same slide from the traditional past to the impending modernity. YV isn’t producing larger families and MO isn’t producing more balanced families. It is a causality of their relationship with the past. They are just holding on as much as they are. There is no reason for me to think that Lakewood isn’t sliding toward Teaneck. Both in terms of the pros and the cons.
The reason the MO bashing is toleratated in this context is because the yeshivish or chassidish yidden who are slipping are just called not yeshivish or chassidish. It’s an easy fix which MO has been unable to enact. Which must cause great displeasure to hashem. Well, he can always start a new ‘who is a jew’ battle, to cheer himself up.
n0mesorah,
“The reason the MO bashing is toleratated in this context is because the yeshivish or chassidish yidden who are slipping are just called not yeshivish or chassidish. It’s an easy fix which MO has been unable to enact.”
This is not true. The difference I think lies more in what causes the slipper to be declared outside the fold. When Sholom Rubashkin was released from prison, he was greeted with dancing in the streets of Brooklyn, with much hand wringing over the spectacle in MO circles. In contrast, when Jack Abramoff was released from prison, he was persona non grata in his former DC/Baltimore area MO communities. MO rabbis have had no trouble excommunicating people for not adhering to Covid orthodoxy. The dispute here perhaps seems to be what each community is willing to tolerate.
“Which must cause great displeasure to hashem. Well, he can always start a new ‘who is a jew’ battle, to cheer himself up. “
Uhh, what does this mean?
Dofi, if you can produce a study that shows that more than 30% of charedi Jews habitually engage in sinful behavior, then by all means, do. But the fact that you buy into New York Times propaganda about the ultra orthodox and hasidic jewish crooks just says more about where you spend time than anything else.
It’s anecdotal, and it’s because you don’t like frum people. It’s your own sinas hatorah that amei haaretz have, and it’s nothing new – you can go from Akiva wanting to bite rabbis to being Rebbe Akiva if you’d apply yourself to learning.
And if you’ll read the Nishma study, you’ll see that there’s plenty of MO crookedness in bein odom lechavero too; it tops their list of most important priorities, together with yeshiva costs, with the left winfg believingt that “womens issues” is very important.
The reason we’re discussing institutionalized heresy and sin is because it’s a direct product of MO education, culture, and community. The mother’s milk is all about zionism, social justice, movies, tv, unfettered internet access, making frei people and goyim into heros, the idea that some people “arent cut out to be frum,” secularization of jewish values, belief in modern “isms,” and loads more.
In the yeshiva world, there are sinners, but they’re not claiming to represent the yeshiva world. Their sin is despite their upbringing of fear of Hashem and Torah mattering above all else. And no one made a movement in the yeshivos to accept LGBT and other sins. It doesn’t happen, because the institution – the culture, leadership, communal/social norms, are all about Torah and Hashem, with nothing else mixed in. The only normalized problems are a pursuit of gashmius among SOME, baalabatish people, who if not for yeshivos, would not only be gashmiusdik, but also far less observant. Instead of having 30% not keeping halacha and 60% not being maaminim, we have almost everyone keeping halacha and believing, with some who sin on ocassion, and others who pursue the wrong things in life while devoting the lions share of their time and money to torah matters, including tzedaka and paying tuiton. Gashmius pursuit, while wrong, is nowhere near the scale of sinfulness and breaches of halacha delineated in this thread.
If you walk into a MO shul dressed like a shiksa, no one will bat an eyelash; actually, saying that she dresses like one will raise many more eyebrows and will signal calls of misogyny and whatever else.
That doesn’t happen anywhere else. Just MO. Where are the female rabbis, the LGBT advocates, the psychologists who think they know better than rabbonim, the ethicists who question the Akeidah, the people who say we need to “reconsider” shelo asani ishah, the people who think that yeshiva men are cavemen because they dont go to college, the people who have more respect for the atheist ben gurion than for rav shach, and tons else…
where are they?
Dear Avram,
A quick list of what they could be tried for;
1) The yeshivishe velt is abandoning the yeshiva and the yeshiva bochurim.
2) The appreciation of a Gaon who really knows his stuff, has fallen below the kollelman who spends a decade distorting a sugya and then tries to sell his chumros or whatever.
3) Some ugly divorces in prominent families are completely disregarding gittin and more.
4) The present leadership vacuum.
Most of all, and pertinent to many threads on this site, the equation of the right as Torah and the left as the Antitorah. Instead of talking Torah, yeshivahliet are becoming embroiled in culture wars that they understand little about. I’m not attacking their stance as much as them abandoning their great potential for such trivial matters.
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