Different Tracks of Modern Orthodoxy

Yserb, you’re right that certain things, limd r”l institutionalized mixed swimming and dancing in young israel were stamped out. If there’s a campaign to spread awareness of negiah – tell me, is it part of a sex education program in schools which emphasizes personal choice and consent while making them aware that there is such a law, but…..”? That’s how most MO people view the issue. Same with tznius, har covering, or pretty much anything in yiddishkeit which goyim would say is restrictive, primitive, etc..

Young israel represents a very different norm of MO than the rest. Its leadership is largely from the yeshiva world, and its policies are in line with normative halacha, for the most part (except mixed large scale kiddush)

Check out the organization Nishma(a modern organization)’s study in 2017 of modern orthodoxy. Between a plurality who responded that they only “tend to believe ” in basic yiddishkeit and a large amount who responded that they have doubts, as well as how many say that yiddishkeit is the most important thing in their life, and how many say that they don’t keep taharas mishpacha fully….check it out. It was taken in 2017 and it paints a pretty ugly picture.

If you want to see where the best of the youth(aside from rabbi shechter’s circle) are headed, read the commentator in YU, an independent student run newspaper which is full of apikorsus and advocation of sin.

Already 15 years ago most MO schools were comfortable discussing having multiple spouses of differing genders in a high school debate stage.

In 2017, the nishma study showed a large amount which were open to gender bender garbage.

It’s just a mirror of progressive goyim. Can you tell me one goyishe value that MO hasn’t taken steps towards?

Dear Avira,

Maybe if you weren’t a tzukiguminer you would have a foggy idea of what your talking about. In the remnant of the Litvish world that barely survives in today’s yeshivos, it is a given that there was a Torah Velt before the Gaon.

Nom, who said there wasn’t a torah world before the gaon? And what in the world makes you think that there’s little left of the litvishe world? Do you mean that the level of learning is lower? If so i agree. If you think that the litvishe were maskilish, i can only say that you need to stop reading disproven academic accounts online.

Dofi, we’ve been done with this conversation a page ago.

“@ujm The people who you affectionately call “LWMO” made up the vast majority of Jews who consider themselves “Orthodox” for decades.”

Yseribus: This is, historically, factually absolutely incorrect. The vast majority of Jews who consider themselves “Orthodox” during, let’s say, Rav Moshe’s time were most certainly not what is now called LWMO. They were closer to what’s now RWMO. They never had the slightest thought of supporting women “rabbis”, women egalitarian “minyan”, supporting homosexuals, etc. Au contraire, they were very opposed to all that and considered that garbage to be completely non-Orthodox, and only to be found in the Reform and Conservative movements.

“and most of their children grow up and either drop the pretense of being Orthodox… So I don’t see the existence of “LWMO” as an issue that needs to be addressed, since it seems to be resolving itself without outside “help”…”

That’s a tragedy, not something that is “resolving itself”. What could be more tragic than a formerly Orthodox family, even if the extent of their Orthodoxy was Shabbos, Kosher and Taharas Hamishpacha, now dropping the little Orthodoxy that they did maintain and no longer identifying or practicing any Orthodox beliefs and practices such as Shabbos, Kosher and Taharas Hamishpacha?

The very reason that, as you said, “most of their children grow up and either drop the pretense of being Orthodox” is directly because they were led to believe by their MO leaderships that all the rest of the Taryag Mitzvos were optional, and only practiced by the “fanatics” known as Chareidim.

@AviraDeArah I seem to recall a while back that MO teens would constantly talk about negiah like frum people talked about Lashon Horah. Meaning, that the well-intentioned kids knew it was something they were supposed to do and be careful about, even if it was all around them and they themselvesfaltered from time to time. My understanding was that this was due to a campaign by MO Rabbonim, which is why the phrase “Shomer Negiah” is very common and not, I dunno, “Shomer K’Layim”.

I agree. Many MO communities have accepted goyishe values over Torah values. However, as I’ve stated numerous times before and as you yourself admit, those communities are dying. They don’t have leadership that supports such values, and most of the oilom in that boat are either making Aliyah, becoming frummer, or just heading towards full non-observance.

Again, the current trends in Yeshivish communities to one-up each other on how k/frum we can be by throwing away important parts of our lives and education, is an acute danger to our Klal.

Avira

With all due respect, untill 20 years ago the chassiddeshe rabonnim were screaming about mixed swimming in Miami where a big oilam going there where not beig makpid since it wasn’t at home
(Almost like not being makpid on yoshon when not at home)
And it wasn’t just the Bubbys and Zeidys it was the children and eineklach coming to visit Bubby and Zeidy.

Nom, what are these accounts of mixed swimming? The steipler wrote of American jews that he was shocked to his core that people who are shomer shabbos can even think of doing such a thing, which he says is yehereg velo yaavor. It was clearly a big deal and something he never heard of, and he was from Europe. It’s in kiryana de’igrasa. I don’t know what naskilish books you read that led you to think otherwise, but if you know of a rov who wrote nonchalantly about mixed swimming, please do tell. I’m sure there weren’t any.

I don’t know how you can group together individual spiritual accessories, such as uman, with mitzvos deoraysoh like peter chamur – there are jews who own donkeys; in Europe, that wasn’t common… simple as that.

And yes, MO was born of haskalah. Its leaders were all soaked in it, including revel and belkin. Their attitudes are taken straight from maskilim who believed in the independent importancd of secular studies and culture. The kind of stuff rav hirsch spent decades fighting.

Dear Avira,

On mixed swimming. Nobody here is condoning it at all. You see it as a development of MO. That is not true historically. (And according to Amirican’s post, it wasn’t true currently until this [Mine, not yours.] generation.) The fact is that mixed swimming happened a lot a hundred years ago. It’s in many biographies, recollections, and observer accounts. And they mention it off hand as if it was normal. I can’t tell you why it was normal for them. But it was. Of course, we can assume that all rabbonim were fire and brimstone against it, but there isn’t much talk about it. Maybe the rabbonim weren’t aware. Or it was done in places with little leadership. Or maybe it was much more innocent than what we think of it. I don’t really care. The fact is that it was done before MO became a separate group. And later it was an issue in all circles of NY orthodoxy, and the rabbonim reacted forcefully.

Dear Avira,

Your last paragraph is incomprehensible to me.

“MO was born” When?

“haskalah” What does that word connotate to you?

“It’s leaders” Who?

“including” Two presidents of YU. What does that have to do with MO at large?

“Revel” You must mean that he was a talmid of Telshe. But still, he was a man of stubbornly independent thoughts and methods. Not really under any outside influence.

“Belkin” was big on the greek classics. And completely not involved in day to day leadership of anything besides one yeshiva/college.

“Their attitudes” What do these two have in common?

“taken straight from” Because they read their works?

“maskilim” Any specific names?

“believed” Again, boiling down to itty bitty belief. Who knows what anybody really believes? [Besides for you. Asking for a friend.]

Postscript: If MO means the crowd that you grew up with, and the YV is just the yeshiva that gained from and align yourself with, I would agree with you. The fact is that there is much, much, more. And if we were to ask the MO communities that are failing (Just those that cling to observance. Privately face to face.) they would justify their existence on you and others that went on to yeshiva and made it. Where you in YU and are just annoyed about it? Because your not making any point or much sense besides that.

Nom, just give a source if there is one – you’re making a claim and not substantiating it. I quotes the steipler, readily available, who expressed shock and disbelief over it.

There are three different chapters here.

First is a hundred years ago. It’s recorded as a given without any fanfare. Maybe these people were really not observant.

Second is after the war. It’s being protested in all (American) circles that included observant families.

Third is these days. It seems to be a major issue by MO but barely anywhere else.

Sources:

Chapter 1. After I came across a photograph in some shtetl titled ‘A hot day by the river which was clearly mixed, I started taking note of it. It can be found in memories from all over. One source I feel comfortable sharing here is All For The Boss. Ruchoma Shain describes the dilemma of not being able to join her friends on their trips to Coney Island.

Chapter 2. Many rabbonim put out letters for their own kehillos about the seriousness of mixed swimming. Not even half of them were MO.

Chapter 3. Mixed swimming is a common lament among and toward the MO. I have no idea. In my whole life, I’ve had very little interaction with MO on their turf. There was a post today that claimed this was a problem by Chassidim up until twenty years ago. And there has been isolated stories all over.

Point being, whatever it is, was, or will be, mixed swimming has no direct correlation to the differences between the MO or the YV. My whole intention is only towards this one line.

@lakewhut While I appreciate you starting this discussion, I’m going to say something, Yid to Yid, that I hope comes from a place of ahava. Kindly stop discussing things you know nothing about.

Nom, you’re not providing sources for anything, just claims about things you’ve seen in books, without describing what the scenes were, or where they were. As for ruchoma shain, she did not grow up in a frum community; her father was a trailblazer, and in her public school, she was basically the only frum girl in class…so it makes a lot of sense that her friends would do what goyim and frei people do.

Just repeating that something was historically common in an anonymous forum where no one is believed by authority is very unconvincing.

As for it being a problem by chasidim…you say you’ve seen “posts” about it – don’t be a pesi maamin lechol davar, especially with what you see online.

Also, it’s only being protested in the elements of MO that are influenced by the yeshivos. A large amount of young israel rabbis learned in eretz yisroel in charedi yeshivos. They started saying that bungalo colonies can’t keep calling themselves young israel by virtue of their mixed pools and dances, because YI didn’t want to be associated with such things anymore.

The growing leftist wings of MO are getting worse in these inyonim

I know I’m coming late to the discussion but I want to add my two cents

There was someone (or a few people) who bashed cgassidim for davening after Zman tfillah, that’s nothing compared to YI who half the guys don’t put on their tefillin properly and are on their phone or shmooze with the guy next to them FOR THE WHOLE DAVENING

believe me, if an MO doesn’t have to wake up early they would daven at 11 too

@coffee addict

And there aren’t Chasidim that shmooze or on their phone during davening? The institutionalizing of missing zman tefilah by Chasidim is not something to be overlooked.

@coffee-addict I’ve never seen any correlation between type of community and how someone acts in shul. I’ve seen Chassidish shuls where everyone is eating and schmoozing during davening. I’ve seen MO shuls where the whole place is rigid and quiet. I think in the more left-wing barely-frum places, some people rarely come to shul, so when they do they are very serious about it.

There isn’t enough time to shmooze by an MO weekday service.

Dear Avira,

It is literally on this page! Twice! How many posts do you miss per thread? No wonder……..

I think I recall Rabbi Berel Wein once saying that the whole excuse of davening late was to have more kavanah and deveikes during davening but today you have some Chasidim davening late and without kavanah so it’s the worst of both worlds.

@lakewhut And you know this from your vast experience davening in many MO shuls across the country?

@coffee-addict Everything depends on the shul. Some MO shuls are very serious, some the oilom barely davens. Some Yeshivish shuls are dead quiet, some you can’t hear the Chazzan. Some Chassidishe shuls are full with the kol teffilah, some don’t even have a minyan of people who aren’t busy with coffee or kugel.

Rabbi J.B. Soloveichik in his Five Addresses clearly states that “separatist Orthodoxy” would disappear and only MO will survive. “Jewry and Judaism throughout the world” depended on the survival of this movement. Rabbi Soloveichik did not believe that he was merely helping a segment of Orthodox Jewry — he held that “the future of Torah in America” depends on following his approach. He held that the “separatist” Orthodox will die out and only YU and MO will survive. He held America was too strong for the real, pure Orthodoxy. Those who insisted on continuing the “old style” Orthodoxy would, he said, be come nothing but tourist attractions and die out eventually. What cannot be understated are the words of Rav Soloveichik, “secular culture . . . . AS LONG AS ONE CAN LIVE WITHOUT IT SO MUCH THE BETTER FOR THE SPIRIT”. The traditional Ultra-Orthodoxy (Rav Soloveichik refers to them as “isolationist” (sic) Orthodox, or “extreme” (sic) Orthodox) would theoretically be the best choice. But in America, it can’t survive. “Tourist attractions” he says Chareidim would end up. Clearly he was 100% mistaken.

And it was that which he said justified “Modern Orthodoxy” – survival, nothing else. If these words seem a bit difficult to understand today, you must appreciate them within the context of the prevailing secular social attitude during the time they were said, the early 1960’s. Many people were dazzled by the “new social and economic order” and even frightened about the future of Torah in America. The typical alter litvishe water carrier didn’t seem to fit in to the picture of what they imagined to be the technologically fueled, fast-paced, high-educated America.

Modern Orthodoxy was created as a response to a problem. The problem: The new world. America. Things will be different there. America is not the place for traditional Torah Orthodoxy. In the words of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveichik: “we would be enveloped by a new economic order. The lion’s share of Jewry would be centered in the Western world, and society would be based on science, where “the sun and the moon and the eleven stars” will radiate scientific learning and technology; where every scientific discovery will be publicized in the newspapers as the greatest sensation’ where all professions will be linked to higher education . . .it was [therefore] forbidden to rely on a continuation of the status-quo . . . great changes were about to occur in Jewish life for which we would have to be prepared.” (Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveichik, Five Addresses, p.31) “There is secular culture, great and powerful technology creating wonders and changing the foundations of our life . . . This secular culture entails destructive elements, many negative and perverse aspects; it may be a blessing and a curse simultaneously, and thus AS LONG AS ONE CAN LIVE WITHOUT IT SO MUCH THE BETTER FOR THE SPIRIT – [but] finally we will have to relate to it.

This was the Modern Orthodox mind-set in the early 1960’s. Ultra-Orthodoxy will be swallowed up by the all-too-powerful American culture, and the “new type of Talmid Chacham”, the secularly educated, religious Zionist will “conquer” the new world. (“Conquest” is a word often used in Rav Soloveichik’s lectures). That was then. Before long, the tune began to change. Yeshivos, chareidi-style yeshivos flourished and grew. Kolleim, yes, Kolleleim, where married men with families would “shut themselves behind walls” and spend their entire day immersed in Torah, began to spring up all over the country. Ultra-Orthodox Kiruv organizations were succeeding in attracting even the most Americanized youths. People laughed at Rav Aharon Kotler when he said that American students would be willing to go to Yeshiva full time with no college. Now look at who’s laughing at whom. Where we used to see articles announcing the pending death of “ultra orthodoxy”, we saw, in the 1980’s, articles by such Modern Orthodox spokesmen as Rabbi Dr. Emanuel Rackman, of Fifth Avenue Synagogue on Manhattan and later Bar Ilan University in Israel, decrying the spirit of “Ultra Orthodox Triumphalism”. When the ArtScroll series of English Torah classics came out, we saw an article, I believe it was in Tradition magazine, complaining about how ArtScroll, by using good English and high quality production, gives the false impression that they are really “Modern”, when in reality they are “ultra orthodox” in disguise.

Dear Yserbius,

I’ve been in shuls of all stripes of orthodox across half the country. MO shuls generally daven early and fast. It’s great! Get up, guaranteed service, and a full day still ahead!

I get the sense that decorum in shul, goes by the person not the affiliation or congregation. If the Rabbi teaches the people to have respect, than they will. Or at least thy might. A serial shul-talker will do so even when he finds himself in a shul with nobody to talk to.

Dear Marxist,

Davening late wasn’t an excuse. It arose among those who were in shul a whole morning (i. e. From well before dawn until noon). The only question was what time was the better time to choose Tefillah over Torah. All the common folk davened early and went to work. These Chassidim would start davening around the same time as the workday. And they davened long and loud for hours.