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Avaira,
So what exactly do you do to earn a living?
Why not – what is more important – mitzvos bein adm l’Hashem or l’havero? (or l’ atzmo as some also count). I don’t have enough time to do all of them, please advise should I drop the tefillin or the grandma?
Yes, we sometimes have emergencies when one needs to prioritize – and possibly inward approach was appropriate in pre-WW2 Europe and post-WWs US and Israel. Other approaches, including some non-extreme MO types led to assimilation. But, we can’t continue an emergency for more than 100 years. Many, not all, maybe a minority ( should be a respected minority) is capable of walking and chewing gum, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Just because your kid is not capable of handling college and having a profession, does not mean that you should teach him to hate the doctors and engineers who help you have a comfortable life.
When we compare Chasidim to MO do we include missing zman tefila, bad derech halimud and (for some in Boro Park) chillul Shabbos?
Dofi, you must be late to the party; I’ve been derided quite a lot over what my job is, and I’m sure some parents here would be terrified at the thought of me teaching their children, but what can i do…
Avira > I’m sure some parents here would be terrified at the thought of me teaching their children
I have to admit to that, indeed. As much as I am ok discussing issues with you and many others with whom I disagree, whether they are Neturei Karta or members of Bund, I would not want my kids to be exposed to that, at least without ability to know about it and respond. So, I wonder whether
1) do you expose your students to your views (possibly subtly and without malaise)
2) do parents know your views
3) would they keep kids in class were they to know your view/ or were you telling them that/provided they have easy alternativesAvaira,
Are you so critical and dismissive of other Jews while in the classroom, especially the parents of kids you teach or do you hold it in until you get here?
Aaq, I’m surprised that you think I’m a neturei karta member – I’m just a run of the mill yeshiva product, who learned to be anti-Zionist from gedolim who had no affiliation with neturei karta, or even satmar.
As for how i teach my students; i never speak about zionism in class. I don’t tell them anything about the state of Israel, or zionist leaders. The school knows that I’m different from most of the other faculty, and they respect it. The school acknowledges 5 iyyar, but does not say hallel.
What i do is spread Torah. I do, however, make a point of certain things that they’re likely never to hear elsewhere, as it is a kiruv -esque yeshiva. I mention the pasuk of hayom hazeh nihiyeseh li l’am, that we became a nation by kabalas Hatorah, and that rav saadya gaon says that only Torah is what makes us jews. Sometimes a kid will ask “what about non religious jews? Are they jewish?” To which i answer that they are looked at, mostly, as innocent captured children. For those who do know better, i tell them that they’ve forfeited their right to be part of the jewish nation, but they’re welcome to come back.
I’ve never had a kid ask me “but isn’t judaism about torah and a land and a language.”
I also purposely avoid the made up day school havara, and the kids actually copy the way I speak when they’re in school. One kid told me that when i say hebrew words, it’s a lot warmer and what i say sticks in his head a lot more.
I stress positivity, and i never get angry with the kids. Once in a blue moon i get serious, and they know something big must have happened to warrant it. I also encourage the kids to prove me wrong about things; i offer them prizes if they can show that i made a mistakr. I do that to get them to learn more, and to show them that in Torah we don’t stand by our words. I try to teach them to deal with social problems in the same way, to always want the truth to win out, even if it’s embarrassing.
You’d be surprised, given my tone on here, what happens in my classroom. Kids spout all sorts of kefirah that they’ve been programmed to say. Sometimes I’ll take note of it and work it into a lesson not aimed at any one student. I’ve kept up with several of my talmidim and I’ve helped some get into frummer schools. I’ve also had parents go from giving me tongue lashings over telling their boys that Hashem sees them when they play ball and that they should cover their heads, to thanking me at the end of the year and saying that they know so many other kids who are going off the derech, etc… I’m happy to say that I’ve almost never had a kid go off the derech in my class, as far as i know.
You have a weird pshat into who qualifies as being part of the Jewish nation. Yes, Rav Saadya Gaon is saying that only the Torah makes us Jewish but the same Torah says that someone who is born of a Jewish mother is Jewish. Pshatus is that secular Jews are part of am yisrael.
And I just want to clarify from above that many Chassidim learn properly and don’t miss zman tefilah. But a lot don’t. And I don’t understand why when people compare MO to Chasidish that these variables are left out. Is a frum serious YU boy who keeps halacha but may be a bit more exposed to secular culture worse than a Chasid who doesn’t learn properly and davens at 11?
Avaira,
When your students are from MO homes do you impart the holy words of your Rabbeim, of course in private and in the kindest way so as not to embarrass them too much? Do you tell them that their parents are worthless stragglers who only care about secular studies and contribute nothing to the world aside from their wasted contributions to non-Jewish causes? If not, why not? How can you deny them this vital guidance that you share so generously with us?
And why are you so afraid to use your real name and those of your Rabbeim when sharing their holy words with us? Is it over money, since you’re afraid of losing your job?
the Young Israel movement the flagship of the so called Modern Orthodox is falling apart, they are 1 generation ahead of JTS, only true Torah frum will survive the so called Modern orthodox will either become frei (happening VERY often in this crowd) or become real proper frum with women covering their hair, wearing skirts and not having all this liberal empowerment stuff.
Dofi, nobody uses their real names here, and I’ve shared who my rebbein are many, many times. Take a look at my posts; it’s no secret. I don’t know why you’re into ad hominem issues – well, it might have something to do with the indefensible practices and beliefs that i rant about on here. Rather than at least try to counter with sources, like AAQ, you’d rather attack me as a person, so good luck with that! I suppose you’ll also try to find my school and try to get me fired because you don’t like my hashkofos – good luck with that too! The school knows me very well and isn’t really concerned with what i write in an anonymous forum, but you clearly are.
As for how i put things to children – not every fact can be told as it is to every person. I never, ever put down their parents or other teachers. Very rarely does a child say “but we do this differently in my house”, and when it happens, it’s usually a difference of minhahim which i explain. Sometimes a kid says “but I do this”, which is a big difference, and this happens a lot. I’ll show him the sources and gently tell him that we’re all here to learn, and that i myself learn new halachos very often which i was not aware of.
It’s kinda like how the Arizal writes that goyim have no tzad tov at all, and how chazal say that they’re not called adam, etc… It doesn’t change the halacha that mandates that we treat people with kovod habrios and don’t steal from them, etc..
Whatever the truth is about the majority or a plurality of MO people, it has nothing to do with how i treat people in real life situations. It might be a bit of a brain exercise of going outside of your comfort zone, but it is possible to have a negative view of a society or a community and still treat them as human beings and as yidden, Hashem’s children, who He loves more than anything.
I also never called MO jews “worthless” – I’m pretty careful in the words i use. No jew is without worth. Especially when a jew keeps at least some mitzvos, and spends a large percentage of their income on jewish education, such as it is. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t abominations and kefirah, of which there are plenty.
Avaira,
Your “brain exercise” must be so exhausting, having to pretend that the MO stragglers who contribute zero to the world deserve any measure of respect when you interact with them. Your negative opinions of so many Jews are a true credit to your Rabbeim. It’s an honor for this forum to provide an outlet for your deep frustrations so that you don’t suffer a mental break.
I have a feeling that one of these days your mask will slip and people will see how you really feel about them. What happens next will be entirely of your own making and you’ll have only yourself and your Rabbeim to thank for it.
Dofi, what i really feel for other jews is love and compassion. But in your world, that’s only for people who are…tzadikim? As frum as you?
Avaira,
I really find it hard to believe that you can love those whom you constantly rail against in such a dismissive manner. Perhaps you pity them for not being on your exalted level but you don’t actually love them. I’m not the one crowing about tzidkus and frumkeit, you are.
Dofi, let’s go this route instead.
When you think of frum jews who engage in improper business deals, keep their wives chained as agunos, and other things, do you feel malice towards them? If so, are you still capable of loving them,and if so, why not? Why are they different than people who violate the Torah in other ways?
Or is it only certain prohibitions that you’re comfortable with accepting as people you can love and feel compassion for?
Where is the line drawn? Between mitzvos that are ben Odom lemakom and ben adam lechavero? If so, do you feel able to love a modern orthodox jew who takes jews to court? And if so, why is that different?
Take some time to think about what I’m saying without a knee jerk reaction. What I’m saying is that to love other jews, you need to be accepting of their faults, but not oblivious to them. It’s a level of real ahavas yisroel. Because the alternative is to only love jews who you personally think are ok and spur whoever you decide isn’t.
@aviradearah What would you rather? That a man be nichshol in speaking Lashon Hora all day every day, or that he gives all of his money to tzedaka?
What you are presenting is a false dichotomy. Not only is it ridiculous to assume that the only two choices in life are to be an Am Ha’aretz in one way or another, but that isn’t even what I’m discussing! There’s a massive difference between the actions of a community and the choices of an individual, it’s incomparable!
So I would have to say, going back to my actual question, that I would rather a minority of a dying minority continue doing the anti-Torah things that they always did, than a growing majority follow a different, but still dangerous, anti-Torah path.
I don’t know what your job is, but I recall that MTA (YU’s high school) had a Satmar Chusid on staff as one of the Rebbeim. I was told that it was pretty well known that he had explicit instructions from the hanhalla what he could and could not say. Any discussion about Israel was obviously assur.
@aviradearah I don’t think you called MO “worthless”, but I just looked back at some of your comments and you said “MO contribute nothing”, claiming that they give their money to art museums instead of tzedaka. So I would have to vehemently disagree with you on literally every thing you said:
- Modern Orthodox people give tons to tzedaka
- Modern Orthodox people do not give a lot of museums
- Modern Orthodox people contribute plenty
- You absolutely called them “worthless”
Avaira,
You talk a good game about loving Jews despite their flaws yet in actuality you get on this site and constantly bash specific groups of people and while having only praise for others. Why do only single out some for their faults as if others don’t have their own? What motivates you to do so at all, is it cathartic for you?
Yseribus: The LWMO, who are mechallel almost everything in the Torah are a large majority of the MO population, whereas the RWMO are a distinct minority of the MO population. That’s certainly the case with the national/international MO communities. But even within YU the left-wing significantly outnumbers the religious right-wing.
Avira, thanks for answering my question and sorry for the scolding you are getting…
I see that you are somewhat in a pickle: you proclaim and teach importance of the truth but then have to say things to your students that are appropriate for the school. I don’t think it is wrong per se, just an intellectual contradiction that I am sure you have a resolution for. It does not look like you are doing it just for financial reasons also.
What I am not sure though whether your declared behavior is always what actually happens. As others mentioned saying, for selected ones, that some Jews are cut off, even if they can come back in not what a serious, non-LW, MO Rav would say .. so, it is probably similar with many other issues that you may not even notice consciously. Also, with sending kids to “frummer” places – I hope this is with agreement of the parents and your school administration. This might be a geneva otherwise.
JJ Herman sent a kid to a yeshiva and then went to tell his parents. I think we would have been arrested in our days.So, back to putting myself into the shoes of the parents – I presume my kids are serious enough to hear the “truth” for you and I would probably inform the administration when I find out that teaching is not as expected from the school. And I would when kids start calling their cousins not part of am isroel or something like that. In the ideal world, I would also go to beis din to recover tuition and bitul zman.
Joseph,
It sounds like you’re quite the expert so please provide actual percentages with sources. Or is this just another one of your infamous boich svaros?
@ujm The people who you affectionately call “LWMO” made up the vast majority of Jews who consider themselves “Orthodox” for decades. They are now the minority. Most of their Rabbonim are very against their ways of life (Baruch Hashem we no longer have many Rabbis who are forced to either accept davening without a mechitza or lose their only parnoso) and most of their children grow up and either drop the pretense of being Orthodox, move to Eretz Yisroel, or become much more frum.
So I don’t see the existence of “LWMO” as an issue that needs to be addressed, since it seems to be resolving itself without outside “help” (which never seemed to work). However, I do see there being a rising danger in the issues I mentioned in the frum “RWY” communities.
AAQ, I really dont care what a MO rabbi says against chazal, rishonim and poskim across the board. A mechalel shabbos loses the din of a yisroel. People who are not “oseh maaseh amcha” are not in the pasuk of amcha, amiso, etc..
And that’s what I quote when I teach. Word for word, pasuk, gemara, rishonim. I don’t add in anything of my own.
And they don’t run around calling other Jews names or making fun of them. Because they know there’s a zero tolerance policy for bullying of any sort. It all goes together; like I said, you can be aware of someone’s level and status without treating them badly, which is one of the most important lessons a child can learn. Otherwise, they end up adults with no sense of justice, as can be evidenced above.
I also don’t stress the negative aspects. I spend 99% of the time talking about how much of a privilege it is to learn and keep the torah, and how lucky we are to be jews, and not just frum jews, but jews who have the opportunity to sit and learn torah. And here and there I’ll talk about the darkness of a life without torah. Because ahavah and yirah are both necessary.
Schools look at the products of a classroom, and while they may not agree with every thing I say, they like how my kids turn out. Like I said, I have a very, very low drop out rate, much lower than the 20% average for MO and less than the 10% average for mainstream yeshivos.
You would actually want a beis din to refund your tuition for the teaching of pesukim according to chazal? I hope you’re exaggerating.
Maybe this can be less violent. Two questions:
1) Is anybody counting the wayward members of the third generation of yeshivish families as LWMO? If not, that what are they?
2) Are these same wayward yidden being used to inflate the success and growth of the chareidi world? If yes, isn’t this a double standard in what we are defining as growth?
Avaira,
You’re not be honest with yourself regarding how much time you spend “here and there” bashing other Jews. Many of your posts are highly critical, negative and downright hateful, not loving. If we knew your real identity there’d be plenty to criticize. Since it’s so easy for you to constantly target specific groups based on what you learned from your Rabbeim, you should have no problem with any of them being criticized on this forum. Then others can decide if they want to unquestioningly swallow the vile hatred that you were fed as Torah MiSinai. You’ve already posted who they are; is that what you want?
yserb….oy. I never said that there were only two choices. That’s what you and Dofi think I said. Read it again. I am trying to isolate your values and you’re trying to weasel out of it.
GIVEN the choice between the two, if those were your only choices, which one would you choose?
Are you concerned that admitting that olam hazeh is simply more important to you will topple all of your anti charedi tirades?
Forget the question I asked – I’ll ask this one instead. Which is more important to you, olam hazeh or olam haba? Physical success or spiritual success? Simple questions. No way of wiggling out of it.
Avira,
it seems that most people here have hard time believing that you can be so partisan and biased in this forum and more reasonable in the classroom. I can believe it, although not fully. I’d like to address 2 issues:
1) when you discuss an issue – do you present all sides or just the psukim/opinions you prefer? how much do you discuss inyanim related to helping all yidden, including those who are not frum by your standard (maybe not all of them).2) doing the job parents paid for honestly. I presume that parents are not coming to school for your shitos. If they were, they would send them somewhere else. Pls correct me if I am wrong. At best, they are saying – ok, the school is great in maths, sports, and last year chumash teacher was great, so there is nothing better than that. At worst, they are not aware that you are not holding where other teachers and parents are.
That is, you are teaching kids not in the way the parents prefer. That is, they hire you thru a shaliach (school) to do a job and you are not doing it the way they want. Either they have iyush because there is effective monopoly in the segment of the market or they are not expecting what they are getting. Let me know if you disagree with this premise.
You say it is 1%. There is 20% margin for sending wrong amount of shmata, but this is in the case of error. Not sure what is halakha when you are using bad weights on purpose. Also, it is a human brain you are operating on. Damaging 1% is often killing. Also, some do not believe here that is “only 1%”. Anyway, why go into chinuch when you are cheating by “only 1%”. Go into diamonds, 1% stealing with at least make you rich so you can give tzedokah.
Let me give you an example. Say, the father is teaching his son to become a doctor while at the same time learn a couple of hours a day and do chesed. Then, the boy gets a 7th grade rebbe who teaches him, unbeknownst to me, that those who go to college are mevatel Torah, involve in pritzut, etc. The heilieke Rebbe is totally unaware that the kid has 5 generations of doctors, none of whom went off the derech that way. Can the father sue for lost wages, including unrealized tzedoka and chesed for this and future generation of lost doctors? Or should he wait until the old Rebbe has a heart attack, calls the old father, who says sorry, I do not operate any more, call my son. The son comes and says – no problem, Rebbe, I’ll say kaddish for you with kavanah.
Correcting ending of the story: the son says to the Rebbe – do not worry, I’ll be saying kaddish for you whole 12 months.
Aaq, some of what you said warrants a response, but you’re also making a tremendous amount of assumptions.
When i said 1% is negative, that doesn’t translate to 1% charedi vs MO ideology. It means that i only talk about onshim, gehinnom, consequences of sin, 1% of the time. Most of the time is positivity.
And do you think i sit there and talk about hashkofa all day? I have a curriculum. And it’s mishnayos, gemara, chumash, halacha, mesilas yeshorim, and navi. That’s what class is about. I have no idea how accomplishing a curriculum could be stealing larents’ money. If a rebbe shmoozed with kids about sports during class for 5 minutes, would you want money back for that too? It’s a ridiculous starting point.
As for parents not wanting XYZ – what i teach is no secret. Let them go somewhere else if the kid comes home and mentions an ohr hachaim that the father disapproves of. Not my problem. I send home sheets all the time; I’ve never had a problem with a parent calling up and saying that I’m teaching fantacism
And no, I’m not interested in quoting norman lamm together with the beis halevi, or other seforim i use. No sefer i quote from is not known to hanhallah. They have no issue with any of it. I don’t tell them rav tzvi kaplan’s statements about the mishpacha magazine, however; you have to know your audience. The kids love kabalah oriented stories, which at first hanhallah was a little put off to(i.e. kav hayashar) but they ultimately decided it was fine.
I don’t tell them not to go to college. I do encourage them to devote as much of their free time as they can to learn, and to spend time with their friends as well. When a boy gets into learning, 9 times out of 10 they’re not itching to go to collegw anyway. And I’m not even anti college to begin with.
I’ve clashed with parents over a few things, but almost always they come to thank me at the end of the year. My class acts differently than the rest of the school, without any “in your face” behavior. Wearing yarmulkes when playing ball, for one. Not eating unchecked, infested fresh fruitscame up once or twice. Staying off of smartphones is something hanhallah is very supportive of..parents, not as much. They want the easy babysitting. Hanhallah does want them on the internet for schoolwork, and that’s something I can’t do much about, and I’m quiet about it.
But I’ve never had a parent complain of chutzpa, as in the kid acting arrogantly over his torah knowledge or observance. Like i said, derech eretz is a huge deal in my lessons, and it’s something they see from me practically.
Also can we please stop talking about whatever this Rav Belsky ZT”L situation is? I am unfamiliar with it and I really really don’t want to know any more.
@avirahdearah You posed your dilemma in a manner of sheker that has nothing to do with our conversation. Like I said, the question was regarding communities and their impact on Yiddishkeit. You did some tricks, moved some words around, and posed a question of individuals. Yes, it’s better for an individual to seek Olom HaBoh if it means giving up his Olom HaZeh. You may as well ask if changing a shoelace can allow a Choson and Kallah to say Shevah Brachos as that makes it a Punim Chadashos.
In the case of the two communities in question, the trend of banning anything but Gemara and Halacha in boys schools is an acute danger to the Olom HaBoh and Olom HaZeh of American Yiddishkeit. The dying ideas of Modern Orthodox Jews who don’t keep mitzvos are far less of a danger to our communities and have been less and less of a danger every year.
Yserb – good to know you think the pursuit of olam haba is more important, at least in theory. Was that so hard?
“A mechalel shabbos loses the din of a yisroel.”
So as a talmid of Rabbi Belsky, AviraDeArah, do you consider the Chasidim that carry in Boro Park not part of Klal Yisrael? Or are you only harsh on MO but become the biggest apologist when it comes to Chasidim?
Dear Avira,
It’s not a fair question. One of the formative statements of Modern Orthodoxy, was Rav Hirsch’s claim that spiritual success is completely a matter of olam hazah. Your complicating what should be the simple part.
Marx, rav belsky often said that they’re anusim and are not considered mechalelei shabbos on any level. They’re following their rov, which makes them blameless. As far as they know, in their due diligence, they’re totally shomrei shabbos.
RSRH was the polar antithesis of MO.
Dear Ujm,
Totally agreed. Much like The Netziv (or Rav Chaim Soloveitchik) was the polar antithesis of the yeshiveshe yidden in our day.
“MO are anusim and are not considered outside the fold of Yiddeshkeit on any level. They’re following their rov, which makes them blameless. As far as they know, in their due diligence, they’re totally shomer torah u’mitzvos.”
Avaira,
Do you frequently quote that loving statement of your Rebbe, that MO are anusim, in class? You certainly wouldn’t want your poor students thinking that their parents are chayav misa, would you?
You really don’t belong in a classroom; Amazon’s hiring.
Dofi, that was marx’s cute comment, not mine. The eruv also isn’t an issue where i am, so it’s a moot point for my class.
Marx, most mo rabbis don’t tell people to do most of the aveiros that they do. Also, more importantly, the eruv supporters aren’t telling them that you can carry on shabbos, rather they’re saying there’s an eruv, an established halachik device. When some mo rabbis say that girls should be taught gemara, or that filters aren’t necessary, or that negiah isn’t a big deal, they’re telling their constituents something that is availably disprovable. I agree that the level of culpability is reduced when they’re following a rabbi, but at what point do we say that they’re expected to reject them? It’s a good question which i don’t have an answer to, but it probably boils down to a case by case, personal cheshbon.
With the eruv, there were rabbonim who learned the sugya differently than rav moshe, while the circumstances of the eruv were quite… Political, but that’s besides the point
If someone is a product of day school, can barely read let alone translate a sefer, and their rabbis led them to believe XYZ halacha simply doesn’t exist, are they like a tinok shenishba in those matters? Or maybe not, because they do know that there are “fanatics” who keep much more than they do, and they’re not like conservative who are taught openly that halacha changed, rather their belief system is that halacha must be kept… So are they held accountable in shomayim for not investigating themselves? Again i think it’s personal.
Avaira,
Yes, but what do you really, deep down believe about the Shabbos observance of their parents?
Can you please explain your comment of the Netziv and Rav Chaim Solovetchik being the polar antithisis of yeshivishe yidden today.
That is quite a strong comment. I wonder what you mean by that
Dofi, I understand you are trying to save the kids, but Amazon is actually firing right now, not hiring.
so do not mislead Avira into unemployment. You’ll have to pay him then!Avira,
you might notice that there are several people, coming from different perspectives, who have hard time believing that your disparaging attitude towards any group that disagrees with you does not translate into how you are teaching kids and that you are transparent with parents about it. I do think it is possible that you limit yourself. I myself have no problem talking to anti-modern people in person, and usually do not point out their hashkafic problems to them. And if I were in a position to teach, say, math or history in a chasidishe school, I’d probably also sneak some of my hashkofas here and there and make them realize that not knowing where Mitzraim is on the map is silly, and working for a living is how most Talmidei Chachomim spent their lives.I don’t know what Orach Chaim says about girls learning Gemora or having unfiltered phones (not that I fully disagree), but I would have half of shas at my disposal discussing all kind of business and work issues.
@Avira,
Teaching girls and women gemara is like a galaxy away from negiah in the sense that negiah is an actual direct aveira. I know of plenty of MO Rabbis who encourage (or at least don’t discourage) women learning Gemara. However, I never heard of any discouraging negiah or saying that filters aren’t necessary. I seem to recall that “Shomer Negiah” is a huge campaign in MO circles with Rabbis and teachers encouraging their students to keep it.
Lemme as you something: What would you rather? A small patch of thick mold in your house that’s the remnants of a much larger infestation that’s currently shrinking, or a large patch of near-invisible mold that doesn’t look as bad but is rapidly growing?
Yseribus: Teaching women Gemara in a curriculum kneged halacha is also an actual direct aveira.
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