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Their price is overinflated and there are other, better gemstones that are actually rare but still purchasable.
RebYidd23…………..
Reality check time:
This is America (or maybe you are in EY). o tell a young lady that she is not worth the price of a diamond at her engagement and instead she’ll receive another gemstone you consider a better buy>>>>
You will be seen as not caring enough for her, she will feel that the other girls will snicker about her ring…she’ll stand out as different with that colored stone, and her family will lower their opinion of you. Better to give a smaller diamond you can afford than a colored stone.
As for a better gemstone…that is a very subjective word. Diamonds are traditionally known as the hardest gemstone on the MOHs and Vickers scales.
You claim the price is overinflated,it is all about supply and demand determining the market price. Chances are you will not be buying the benchmark D Flawless investment grade diamond that currently retails at about $29,000 US. It has risen dramatically in the last few years since the 2007/8 international banking collapse, the rise of Muslim Terror attacks, political instability in many areas and the restrictions on ‘blood’ diamonds. It is far easier to shift a small envelope of diamonds across a border than kilo bars of gold.
This is also a time of conspicuous consumption in the world. With banks paying next to no interest on money deposits, people are willing to spend large amounts on diamonds. There is also the phenomenon of the newly wealthy Russian and Chinese billionaires who have driven up demand for the finest quality stones.
We have seen changes in the diamond market over time. I can remember one of my trust clients having to insure a particular diamond for $70,000 in the early 1980s. When it came time to distribute the assets of the trust about 10 years ago the market value was only about $35,000.
I am not in the diamond or jewelry business nor are any of my relatives. However, I am both a husband and father of three daughters and I know that neither Mrs. CTL or my girls would have wanted a colored stone for an engagement ring.
Remember, one should buy what one can afford, whether a diamond, house, car or cost of a wedding.
CTLAWYER: I think you and RebYidd23 are speaking of two different aspects of it. He is speaking from an investment aspect and you of the sentiment. He didn’t mention an engagement ring.
Halevai that your last line should only be!
BarryLS1
I dealt with both investment grade diamonds and engagement rings in my reply.
Diamonds are not a great investment because the pricing is controlled by a cartel led by DeBeers who has the ability to control quantity and quality of stones available on the market.
One of my favorite scenes in the movie Casablanca is of a wealthy refugee couple in Rick’s Cafe Americain attempting to sell a diamond to finance their trip to freedom. The buyer offers a very low price, the sellers seemed shocked and they are told that ‘diamonds are a drug on the market, everybody tries to sell diamonds’ in these times.
according to wiki “Diamonds are more expensive because they are harder to come by. But this does not explain why diamond cartels act in the way they do. More than a century after Smith’s death it was hypothesized that value is based on scarcity. Diamonds cost more than water because they are harder to come by..”
As I’ve mentioned before, my wife and I agreed that a diamond was a waste of money, and, at the time, ethically questionable (this was in the days of Apartheid). She was willing to forego an engagement ring entirely. Some years later she asked for a CZ solitaire, which cost less than $200, IIRC.
Diamonds can be manufactured, unlike gold or silver. Whether they will preserve long term value is dubious. They are also hard to appraise and therefore not as easily sold as precious metal.
CTL, you can give a CZ or moissanite, some of which would require an expert to differentiate from a real diamond. Friends and family wouldn’t know it isn’t a real diamond visually.
yehudayona – even tho i know that i may not wear my diamond ring every day (since i dont wear jewelry every day) ill still try to. its because its used as a sign of marriage. so its nice to wear it to show that i have a husband. so its like im wearing it for him.
Diamonds are overrated, but so are basherts. That’s why men give diamonds to women. If a man does not overrate his bashert, he should not marry her.
Diamonds as a investment are a terrible idea, except for knowledgeable diamond merchants, which, contrary to the prevailing anti-Semitic view, most of us are not.
CTLAWYER
and diamonds are the only jewelry that can be made non-color? as it seems to be what you have written
Diamond engagement rings are merely a public relations ploy by the de Beers diamond cartel. Prior to little over a hundred years ago there was no necessity for diamond engagement rings until de Beers brainwashed the public with their PR.
There is certainly no Jewish tradition to give a diamond engagement ring and there is nothing Jewish about giving it.
diamonds are definitely overrated. I got a sapphire because it represents the luchos and is beautiful blue.
I can’t say for sure, but I don’t think I would mind if my chosson didn’t buy me a diamond ring. I think it might actually bother me if he did, because I’d be terrified of losing it. Also, I don’t like rings – I don’t even wear watches, because it bothers me to have things on me.
I would want my chosson to give me some kind of jewelry though, but it doesn’t have to be terribly expensive.
The seforim hakedoshim say a married woman should always be wearing a wedding ring to remind herself and others that she’s married.
Joseph…….
No, you can give a CZ or other simulated diamond. I don’t gave fake things, and as an attorney our ethics do not look kindly on public deception.
Mrs. CTL proudly wears the engagement stone my paternal grandfather gave my grandmother in 1917. Eldest daughter in law’s stone was given by maternal grandfather to grandmother in 1919. Next daughter in law has the stone my father gave my mother in 1941. Our next three children are girls the rings will or did come from the chasson.
Our 15 grandson will get the stone my maternal grandfather bought for my grandmother on their 50th wedding anniversary. There are other assorted stones from our ancestors in the vault for future needs. All will be real, none will be fake and quote ‘good enough to fool others’ we don’t do things that way.
This is an individual decision, and as I [posted earlier, only buy what you can afford. B”H my forefathers made sure that there were two things we’d not have to buy in the foreseeable future: Diamonds for engagements and burial plots. My Great Grandfather bought 1000 plots in the family cemetery in 1919 for $1000…that was a good investment.
Moshiach agent…
Precious gemstones are generally separated into two categories:
Diamonds and colored stones (Rubies, Sapphires and Emeralds).
Colored Diamonds have imperfection or chemicals causing the color.
Other stones are often called gemstones, but are really semi-precious stones and often colored, and occasionally clear.
All of this applies to natural stones, not man made
CTL, Who said anything about being deceptive? Both he and she can be happy with a CZ. Both know it is a CZ. But she doesn’t owe it to the street or her friends to tell them whether it is a CZ or a diamond. And the public and friends and family need not know it is CZ.
Why are you so insistent that diamonds are required or better than CZ for an engagement?
Sparkly, if an engagement ring is a sign of marriage, what’s a wedding ring?
I forgot to mention that despite the diamond cartel’s slogan “Diamonds are forever,” they’re not. My mother’s diamond got shattered internally when something fell on it. After that, it was basically worthless.
Akuperma, as you probably know, the difficulty of appraising diamonds (or any stone) is the reason that halacha doesn’t allow them for kiddushin.
Joseph…………
Please do not put words in my mouth.
Nowhere do I post that diamonds are required for an engagement. The fact that it is our family tradition is certainly not binding on others.
As for the deception, it is not between the giver and recipient that concerns me, it is the assumed false representation to the world that presents a problem.
I could no more see my wife or daughters wear a CZ than fake designer handbags or clothing, it’s not what we do.
These are all personal feelings, they are not to say that use and wearing of CZ or other faux diamond rings is acceptable to others. I have written buy what you can afford. You should also buy what you feel comfortable owning and wearing.
Wearing CZ is no more a false representation to the world as being a diamond than wearing a diamond is a false representation to the world as being a CZ.
CTLAWYER Some people put the diamond in a safe and wear a CZ. Seems like a waste to me, especially as you say, that it is not a great investment.
It’s only a false representation if you think it’s a maaleh to spend money on diamonds, and you are trying to prove you have that “maaleh” when you don’t. Some people think it’s a “maaleh” to spend less money.
“Wearing CZ is no more a false representation to the world as being a diamond than wearing a diamond is a false representation to the world as being a CZ.”
Joseph, good answer.
Are there any teachings that deter from inheriting an engagement or wedding ring from a family member who got divorced and/or had an unhappy marriage?
I read in chassidus it is not recommended to name someone after a relative that was killed or died young or tragically, because that energy would be transferred to the infant.
Would you want to start your marriage off with a ring that symbolized someone else’s broken union?
If not, and the ring was not re-used, maybe a jeweler can alter it or set the stone in a new ring to give it new mazal.
What do you think?
lightbrite: An engagement ring has no significance in Judaism. So inheriting an engagement ring from a family member who got divorced and/or had an unhappy marriage would be no different than inheriting a car or chandelier from a family member who got divorced and/or had an unhappy marriage.
(A wedding ring does have religious significance so my above point wouldn’t be applicable to it.)
Regarding naming someone after someone who died young, I understand people often add an additional name to the person being named after, but it definitely is done to name people after people who passed away young.
If a Jewish pawn shop person labeled the history of the engagement rings with “DIVORCED,” “INFIDELITY,” “DECEASED: HAPPILY,” “DECEASED: ESTRANGED,” and “UNKNOWN,” why do I feel like some Jews, despite engagement rings not being a Jewish thing (but some people still give and wear them), would be hesitant to jump on the “DIVORCED” deal?
—Maybe it’s just me, but buying a used car or chandelier that once belonged to a couple no-longer together is a lot different than a item of jewelry given as a token of a union (even if it is only a secular custom).
Would you be hesitant to purchase Rabbi Arush’s book on shalom bayis from a used book shop if you saw written on the inside page the name of a divorced woman?
Joseph: “Would you be hesitant to purchase Rabbi Arush’s book on shalom bayis from a used book shop if you saw written on the inside page the name of a divorced woman?”
Actually I think I would be! I definitely thought it was funny when a school I worked in gave out books on relationships written by someone who is divorced! Then again, I have heard of divorced marriage therapists who were reportedly really good marriage therapists (although I don’t know if they really were or not).
lightbrite:”—Maybe it’s just me, but buying a used car or chandelier that once belonged to a couple no-longer together is a lot different than a item of jewelry given as a token of a union (even if it is only a secular custom).”
I agree with that.
Lightbrite
Your first question asks about inheriting a engagement or wedding ring from a family memebr who git divorced or had an unhappy marriage.
The inheritor has little say in inheriting. Ownership passes under the terms of the will or the laws of the state it there is no will.
Your question is really whether one should reuse an engagement or wedding ring in these circumstances?
Our family passes down diamonds for use in engagement rings, but never reuses the settings. Each kallah deserves a new setting made for her. We’ve never recycled wedding rings. There is a box in the vault with an accumulation of ancestral wedding rings, their value is strictly sentimental.
I don’t personally believe that any ‘bad luck’ or karma attaches itself to a stone that is reused. If you go to a jeweler to buy a engagement ring, unless the stone is cut to order or has a tracable serial number engraved you have no idea if it was previously owned by a consumer and reset for sale.
Are there any teachings that deter from inheriting an engagement or wedding ring from a family member who got divorced and/or had an unhappy marriage?
My mother (who was divorced) gave me her engagement ring to use when I became engaged. I had the stones reset into a new setting and ring.
With thanks to HKBH, happily married 25 years and counting.
(And before anyone asks; yes, Eees know all along the origins of the ring.)
The Wolf
lilmod, but in this case Rabbi Arush wrote the book – not the woman whose name is scribbled on the inside page.
And it clearly didn’t help her. That would make me nervous! But maybe it’s the men’s book, and she wasn’t supposed to have read it and that’s what caused the problem! 🙂
It was the women’s edition. But why are you blaming Rabbi Arush?!
I’m not blaming him – this is a fictional story, so I don’t want it to sound like motzi shem ra on him. I’m sure that no one who ever read his books got divorced.
Let’s say a fictional author wrote a fictional book about marriage and it had the name of someone divorced in the cover – that would make me nervous. I’m not saying it’s necessarily rational, but emotions don’t always have to be rational. The whole idea of giving your Kallah a diamond has to do with emotions, not rationality.
Isn’t it a bit disconcerting to assume that a divorced woman’s books, jewelry and possessions become contaminated, verboten and unfit for others use upon her divorce?
Would you borrow a Mesechtes Kesubos from a divorced man or would even that make you nervous?
Or is borrowing not as emotionally dangerous as buying the sefer from him?
“Isn’t it a bit disconcerting to assume that a divorced woman’s books, jewelry and possessions become contaminated, verboten and unfit for others use upon her divorce?”
I hear. I guess it depends if you’re talking about a situation in which the fact that the person happens to be divorced is something that I will associate with my use of the object. With an engagement ring that would most probably be the case. With the other examples, that may or may not be the case.
Personally, I don’t think I would want a recycled engagement ring. Not to sound spoiled – I don’t know if I would need one altogether, and I don’t know if I would care if it’s diamond or not- but, if I were already getting one, I think I might find it strange to get a recycled one.
Joseph, I have no idea. Maybe yes or maybe no.
What if the ring was Rebbetzin Kanievsky’s?
lol. That is really funny. When I was thinking this over earlier today, I was thinking that the only way I could see wanting a recycled engagement ring is if it had belonged to someone chashuve. Rebbetzin Kanievsky Zatsal was the example I thought of! And I had been thinking of writing that!
Tachlis, I’m still not sure. I could see either way. L’maaseh, I think I will have to have a chasson before I can have any idea how I would feel about a ring.
Personally, I don’t think I would want a recycled engagement ring. Not to sound spoiled – I don’t know if I would need one altogether, and I don’t know if I would care if it’s diamond or not- but, if I were already getting one, I think I might find it strange to get a recycled one.
That’s fine, but at least now we’ve gotten to the point that it’s your personal preference, not a religious issue.
The Wolf
Wolf – huh? Who ever said anything about a religious issue here?
I think what Hatzaddik Reb Wolf is getting at, is that there is no issue of mazal or other spiritual issues associated with wearing a divorced woman’s engagement ring.
I never thought or implied there were – I was just talking about emotional issues – the whole concept of an engagement ring is emotional not about mazel or spirituality (except in as much all our actions are connected to spirituality).
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