Derech halimud for high school bochurim

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  • #2366005
    simcha613
    Participant

    There is a popular high school in Israel whose derech halimud for their high school students is all bekios and no iyun for their two Gemara sedarim (in addition they also have halacha and hashkafa/mussar). The rationale behind their derech halimud is that the only way to properly learn iyun in Yeshiva Gavohah is to have a solid foundation in Talmud Bavli, and they think iyun at this young age, especially when they haven’t learned great amounts of Shas yet, has limited value. I’m curious what others think about this derech halimud.

    #2366620

    as we discussed in another thread, look at long-term effects. Are graduates of this school ehrliche menchen who treat others with kavod? Can they apply their learning to figuring out how to properly work and honestly pay taxes? If yes, this is the right derech (for these students).

    #2366657
    Jay42095
    Participant

    the maharahal says this at length at the end of perek 6 of nesiv hatorah

    #2366812
    Rocky
    Participant

    There is a story when a certain big Rav came to visit Brisk and Rav Chaim Solovetchik was showing off his son R. Yitzchak Zev to the visiting Rav. R. Chaim was praising his son by saying “You know, my son Velvel knows the entire shas with Rashi”. The Rav was taken aback by how this could be a praise from the father of modern pilpul in the yeshiva world. R. Chaim, sensing his surprise said “As far as I am concerned, if someone does not know Shas with Rashi his pilpul is not worth anything”

    #2366882
    Just Visiting
    Participant

    Personally, I believe learning in Yeshiva should consist of Bekios with unlimited chazzarah. Make chazzarah the goal. And iyun kal. I feel many bochurim don’t enjoy learning because they’re not learning – they’re trying to “do iyun.” Learning is enjoyable, let the bochurim learn and they’ll enjoy it. Don’t fluff it up. Don’t dump a ton of mefarshim on them. Keep it simple – gishmak. I think many Yeshivos system of learning could and eventually will do some overhaul on this. After the shidduch crisis it dealt with… Meanwhile, whatever the Yeshivos are doing are keeping klal yisrael alive and thriving. We couldn’t exist without them – no matter what derech halimud they are teaching. Their main accomplishment is creating “bnei torah” which a bochur absorbs just by being in the walls of the yeshiva and beis medrash. So critiquing the learning style is not critiquing the Yeshiva itself. It’s a פרט in the Yeshiva.

    #2366917
    Happy new year
    Participant

    Gemara is Iyun.
    Mishna is Bekius.

    Yes, they should know Mshna and Gemara

    Bavli, yerushlmi, mechilta sifra sifri tosefta And Dead sea talmud library.

    That’s what yeshiva is for.

    If you have question, you can look st Rishonim….

    #2366998
    Ari Knobler
    Participant

    Of course, all this should come after a great deal of Tanach and Mishnah has been learnt.
    Now, as for Gemara: Teach them Aramaic first. שפת התלמוד ודקדוקה by Judah Steinberg is a masterful textbook and chrestomathy. Then, teach them the legal terminology. There are many guides to this including Aryeh Carmell’s “Aiding Talmud Study.”
    Yaakov Goldman’s three-book series consisting of גמרא למתחילים, גמרא לתלמידים, and סוגיות הגמרא are without peer. Also, “Tools for Tosafos” by Rabbi Haim Perlmutter is a wonderful guide.
    It should take about three years of dedicated, inductive instruction of the aforementioned materials for the students to develop the minimum textual fluency needed for independent learning.
    Bypassing the hard work of mastering the language, the hermeneutics, and basic halakhic themes from throughout Sha”s is akin to trying to drive an automobile without hands or feet. For it should be the goal of any learning program to equip the learner with the tools to learn using the Vilna Edition of the Talmud. Fewer and fewer learners can do this now thanks to popular editions that require no prior knowledge. Of course, hamstringing the talmidim in this way prevents them from cross-referencing other parts of Sha”s or looking up Rishonim and Acharonim on their own. Really, such editions confine the ignoramus to a very narrow window into the sugya. What about Rashi and Tosafos? What about the Maharsha”l and Maharsh”a? That is where true learning comes in–and there are no shortcuts.

    #2367006
    ard
    Participant

    wheres the mesora for this derech?

    #2367125
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    If you truly desire to understand all of Shas, you must master all of Tanach.

    Mastering all of Tanach is part of bekius, or should be part of bekius.

    #2367310
    qwertyqwerty
    Participant

    אלו ואלו דברי אלקים חיים

    #2367397
    John Peace
    Participant

    I believe it’s a good approach.
    It allows the bochrim to become fluent with the gemorah and Rashi, focusing on entrenching and grounding themselves in poshut pshat.

    Once they have spent a few years doing so they will be in an excellent position to fully grasp the subtleties of iyun.

    Some may feel that the bochrim will be bored with only doing bikiyius. I believe that a dynamic Rebbi should be able to alleviate this issue.

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