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I guess some people forgot what comes before Torah.
I guess some people forgot that its the three weeks.
I guess some people forgot what Hillel said.
Or maybe those people think it doesn’t apply to them because they’re doing it “lishmah”.
I’m sad.
“When you fight fire with fire, all you get is ashes”
(I’m talking to myself as well.)
I think some people do not know about what you are referring to.
you wanna tell us what happened or is this just a rant?
I am just waiting for Joseph to explain this as: either Derech Eretz only exists because of Torah, Torah only is the best and Derech Eretz Kadmah LaTorah is only according to some minor opinion that no Gadol holds like, or some other eccentric statement.
I’m waiting for optimus to explain this as there is no Torah (r”l) and therefore everything comes before the Torah.
Joseph
You always have something to say about how Torah is more important than anything in the world and nothing else supersedes it. I was just guessing some of what you might say…
Derech HaMelech,
Is it clear now (at least partially) to what the OP was referring? 🙂
If learning torah is as valuable as many mitzvos (or all mitzvos) combined (Talmud torah k’neged kulam), and derech eretz precedes it, imagine how important derech eretz is.
@kapusta: You are correct. I was taught this in Yeshiva. No matter how smart, successful, bright, intellegent, saavy, good-looking someone is, if there is no Derech Eretz then everything is for naught.
I sometimes find that young people in their 20s have no D.E. What happened? Not all. Just some. Their parents pay millions of dollars in Yeshiva tuition and for what? Too bad…..the generation of entitlement…
I used to sit in class and wonder how people could act the way they did – when your MO teacher is telling you “Derech Erets Kadma Latorah” – you know you are in trouble! I have gotten so many speeches in my life on that……I could really give them already!
MiddlePath,
Being a necessary step before Torah doesn’t really make it Keneged Kulam. You can’t enter the main ballroom without passing the hallway, but that doesn’t mean that the hallway is more valuable in any way.
Haleivi, I’m not really sure what you meant by the ballroom metaphor, but I take it you are trying to say that derech eretz is NOT kineged kulam, the way learning torah is. And that may be true, but in my eyes, that doesn’t make derech eretz any less valuable. I’d rather be a person with wonderful derech eretz and not know how to read a gemara than a person that knows Shas but is seriously lacking in derech eretz.
It says in Kiddushin Torah comes before Maaseh
Maybe Joseph has Asperger syndrome. Most people don’t have it–and they all like talking about things ‘most people’ like to talk about.
Unlike Joseph, who uses a one-sided, long-winded speech about a favorite topic, while misunderstanding or not recognizing the listener’s feelings or reactions, such as a need for privacy or haste to leave.
So instead of all ganging up to bully him-why don’t you understand him.
besides rebuking people in public and embarrassing them is NOT derech eretz
we are not in public and he does not have asperger’s. he has something called “allergic to other peoples opinions”
kapusta, I agree. I think some people forget that though this cr is (sorta) private, it is still not the place for inappropriate (or even sometimes repulsive) comments. It’s nice that someone shares my feelings.
Do you consider a spoon more nourishing than soup or more essential than food? It must come first, that’s all. You are right that if you can only have one, you’d pick Derech Eretz, because at least you’ll have something good. Torah without Derech Eretz would leave you with nothing.
I know Joseph online outside of YWN. He is perfectly normal. I think he was just rubbed the wrong way here at some point and is out to have some revenge-fun at everyone’s expense.
I did the same thing to a (non-Jewish) forum that was mismanaged. They allowed someone, who actually probably was a high-functioning autistic or mental patient, to blow my cover and violate my anonymity after I had done a lot to help them. I registered phony accounts, purposely posted stuff to give the moderators work to do, created phony drama on the site, started a competing site that I only closed because I was no longer involved in what the forum was about. In the end they imploded on their own and split into 2 forums, both useless.
Chazal say, “Derech eretz kadma LaTorah.” This is not to say that we should all abandon our Yeshivos and study halls and enrol in finishing schools. But if our Torah study and observance is not accompanied by, and proceeded by, proper attention to our character and the way we deal with others, then it calls our study and our motives into question.
Rabbi Chaim Vital asks: If derech eretz is so important, why doesn’t the Torah address it by making it a mitzvah (one of the 613 mitzvos) to have good manners and work on one’s character? He answers: Were derech eretz to be a mitzvah, it would imply that it’s a mitzvah just like all the other mitzvos. In truth, it’s much more. It’s a precondition to observing the Torah – a person lacking in basic mentschlichkeit can’t even begin to study and connect with the Torah!
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