Depression&torahs perspective&helpful ideas

Mashiach Agent – everything can be hard.

Person1 – thats what i was thinking. no matter what i do i feel like i will still feel depressed.

The placebo effect is underrated. It works on real illnesses.

Sparkly still there are ways to fight depression, like therapy, medications and exercise.

Also it probably help if you have good real friends whom you trust. A proffesional might have other tips.

Edit: LU I agree. Didn’t see your comment.

is it normal to get depressed from reading a book?

Sadgirlygirl – you have the same issue with depression like me. and i didnt mean to chasvichaillia degrade the rabbis books and i love davening and all that. you probably also have anxiety or add?

“you have the same issue with depression like me.”

is it just me or do you seem to have everything that seems to come up in each discussion?

Syag Lchochma – its just you because i dont.

Try listening to music and keep busy. It’s when you have time to think about all your problems this is when you get depressed.

As far as finding a job look in the YWN classified. The coffee room is not the place to find a job.

Depression is very real, but even the most genius scientists don’t fully understand the causes or treatment.

Syag L’chochma, it seems to me that might be a bit insulting to Sparkly…and coming from s.o who was insulted when I expressed my opinion on dying my hair..

LU-If you read my post you would know that I wasn’t insulted about that comment but was pointing out how insulting it could be to others.

I’m not quite sure why your posts today are so different from what they had been all week but they used to be filled with support and inspiration and today it has been a lot of finger pointing and putting in our place. I genuinely hope there is nothing going on in your life causing you pain to have brought on this change. If there is, I wish you a quick resolution.

Syag L’chachma – I just want to point out that I do think that it’s nice that you are so sensitive that you were concerned about how others in the same situation as me might feel upon reading my post (even though I don’t understand your concern) which is why I was surprised at your lack of sensitivity in this thread towards Sparkly.

Syag l’chachma: let me present it to you this way: What if I had said that I prefer wearing colored clothing to wearing black clothing and that I think it’s a bad idea for someone to only wear black clothes every day? Would you have found that offensive?

And I’m just wondering if you think about it, if you can see why, as an older single with grey hair, I might have been slightly bothered by all of your comments about older singles with grey hair? It wasn’t the biggest deal (just slightly upsetting), but it is hard for me to understand why you took offense at my comment that I prefer to dye my hair, yet don’t understand why I may have been a bit hurt by your comments. It’s not the biggest deal, but I would appreciate it if you would try to see where I was coming from. Thank you!

I’m weighing in on this one. Unfortunately, there is one word currently used for two different conditions.

When a normally functioning person has a bad day, or doesn’t feel accomplished, or has a negative interaction with a loved one, it can lead to lowered feelings. I think this is the type of depression that is addressed in most of the divrei chazal, seforim, and good advice offered.

For some reason we use the exact same term for a seriously altered state of reality, in which the person is stuck in a cycle of negative thoughts, negative judgements, self-condemnation, lack of any motivation at all, lessened ability to enjoy normal things, like ice cream, or a cute baby, or even complete inability to experience pleasure or joy. It is termed depression. Yes, it is differentiated in professional terminology by the word clinical. But most people still refer to this state as depression without adding the word clinical. As in, he suffers from depression. Or, she had mania, and is now in a depression. Or, he shows no interest in life, or family simchas. I think he’s depressed.

Note, the lack of that word clinical.

That is how most people speak.

The reason I know is because I have experienced the real deal. Full blown, life threatening, unremitting clinical depression. It did not respond to medicine. It did not respond to exercise. Music made it worse. I tried to read Rabbi Pliskin’s book, and ended up throwing it across the room. Then I condemned myself for not trying. I avoided people to the best of my ability. My mind was stuck in a never ending circular thought loop, that went from thoughts of my sins, to thoughts of my punishments, to thoughts of wanting to die, to thoughts of that being a sin… again, and again, and again, all day and all night. I don’t know a better description of hell. Anxiety medication provided some relief so I could sleep.

I was seeing a therapist. twice a week. then a psychologist. They couldn’t get me to shake it. They tried TMS (look it up). They tried biofeedback. But my mind remained stuck where it was. My expression was sort of flat, there was almost no inflection in my voice. Medically, or Clinically, if you will, that is referred to as having little or no Affect. I was dissociated. (look it up). For whatever reason ECT was not indicated.

Throughout this period, which lasted for many months, my condition was almost always referred to as a depression. By doctors, relatives, therapists, and books. Occasionally the word clinical was added.

The result of this semantic issue, was that I applied everything I heard or read about depression to myself. Most of those uses of the word probably referred to what I termed above as lowered feelings. In the state I was in, I did not know that I was sick. I was able to use all of the ideas, and suggestions, and mussar as daggers with which to attack myself for not improving my middos to alleviate the depression.

Boruch HaShem I am now fine. It’s not relevant to this post whether the condition was chemical or psychological. It didn’t matter. I was stuck. The manifestation of the illness was very real. Only Hashem knows if I had bechira, and in what areas. I dragged myself out of bed to take showers. I’m sure I get credit for that. I went like a zombie to the grocery, to buy basic food. I get credit for that.

But now, Boruch Hashem my life is rather normal. Sometimes, like everyone else, I find myself feeling a bit low. Exercise helps it pass. Going outside helps it pass. Putting on music helps it pass. Calling a friend, considering positive possibilities, reading something funny, getting involved in a minor home repair or some deep house cleaning distracts me, and it passes. Developing an attitude of gam zu l’tova, or hakaras hatov provides a mental climate that will make such feelings less frequent, and more likely to pass when they occur.

Many people would use the word depressed instead of my choice of the term low.

As a person who has suffered from depression, I find it impossible to use that word to describe a feeling that I can change by choosing certain thoughts or activities.

I am certainly not alone. Many others have experienced the type of Major Depression that I did. Those people, as well as their loved ones who observed the unremitting suffering close-up, probably do not use the term depression lightly.

And the fact that others do, is cause for much argument, hurt, and even confusion on the part of those who have had the medical version.

I am sure, from my reactions, and from letters to the editor, and from the posts above, that both a passing experience of lowered feelings, and a serious medical state with dissociative features, are both referred to as depression. Usually without descriptive adjectives such as clinical or Major.

We can not really fault people for whom their only experience with depression is a temporary, or even pervasive bad mood. However, when a person argues about how to address a case of self described depression, as presented by the OP, it is prudent to take people’s possible experiences into account, before jumping on them for over-reacting.

Words mean completely different things to different people.

One last note: Please do not bother to post advice for treating (Clinical) Depression in response to this post. You will likely hurt more people than you help.

Thinking out loud: Thank you very much for your post. You are right that it is very important that people be careful to differentiate between the two types of depression, and that it causes much confusion when they don’t. I think that most people don’t know the difference between the two types of depression. Also, I think it is confusing because there are so many levels and types of depression. Thank you for clarifying. I think that was very important.

Tachlis, it seems that the OP was referring to the nonclinical form of depression – the type that responds to everyday things like getting enough sleep, listening to music, etc.

I’m just curious, TOL, from your knowledge of the topic, do you think that there is a danger of non-clinical depression becoming clinical or are they two different things? I’m also wondering if people who commit suicide and/or OD usually suffer from clinical depression or if they could be suffering from non-clinical depression? Also, is there a clear-cut difference b/w the two or is it a continuum?

approved means I let everyone read it. If I press delete, nobody will ever see it.

Im guessing maybe t or g for the starting letter.

l.u.Yes there is still a stigma about going to therapist, I see how hesitent some of my cleints are before they book a app. But more and more is being spoken about it , you can see a difference from 3 years ago and now.

sparky.. lets face it .WHO doesnt have problems??? including myself. There is a saying how do you know the difference between the cleint and therapist..the cleint gets better the therapist stays the same..

Sparky,,on this thought your wrong.No therapist in their right mind will take this job to help themselves (maybe for an income) in fact a good therapist has to know how to work with their cleints and they should noy become burnt out.Thats called the therapist syndrome (burnt out).

Lilmod Ulelamaid:

You ask good questions. I don’t know if there’s a clear-cut answer. Actually, I know that there isn’t. Doctors ask a lot of questions to a depressed person, in order to try to figure out what’s happening.

They don’t just “know” automatically, and sometimes they miss it big time.

People are often not willing or even able to say what’s really going on inside. They may just say a couple of things that are going wrong, that don’t seem so deep, without expressing the intense distress that those things are causing.

I am certain it is not an exact science.

Sometimes medications make a difference. Often they do not. There’s a lot of experimentation, and it’s always trial and error. Anxiety medications are more predictable, I think.

I don’t know if it’s a continuum.

Personally, I don’t think depressive thoughts lead to clinical depression automatically, but there is definitely a progression when a person is in fact heading into a what I described, which is a major depressive episode, that it will start with mild stuff and keep growing. So it’s a symptom, not a cause. The difference can be seen – retroactively. And if a person has a history, than there is a lot more reason to pay close attention, if a “bad mood” doesn’t start to fade away when distractions are introduced.

Just for the record, many “moody” or (what people call) “depressed” or “negative” people don’t work on their middos at all, make everyone around them miserable at times, and still don’t end up with major clinical depression! If you catch them off guard, you will see them getting enjoyment from something. Even they can see the comedy in their refusal to be positive.

It seems that some people will never get this kind of sick. They will get other types of sick, though. For example, perhaps if I experience high levels of distress, and I ignore it, and bottle it up inside, it could end up as a physiological depression.

Other people might have a heart attack long before they have the amount of stress/distress that accumulated in me!

Nobody would condemn them for the heart attack!

Well, almost nobody.

So does that mean I have weak nerves, or that my heart is too strong?!

It’s really hard to understand the dynamics of depression.

As far as suicidal ideation is concerned, I think in the cases you are referring to, it’s considered a symptom. The person is in an unbearable amount of emotional pain with no clue how to make it stop. Perhaps it wouldn’t have gotten that far if they had the ability to honestly face whatever it is that they find unbearable (unacceptable), process it, and skillfully express it clearly enough to get help. Usually that is something that is taught by example, and nobody taught it to them. Often the very real fear of judgement, and rejection by others is enough to prevent them from sharing, or admitting their feelings even to themselves. That’s what therapy is often about.

The more we make other people feel truly “safe”, to share their distress, without fear of any reprisals, or dismissiveness, the more we are doing to literally save lives.

I don’t know if one has to be clinically depressed to be literally Terrified of rejection or judgement, and the resulting pain that they know it will cause. Really, I do not know. But severe terror is not a “bad mood” or a case of “lowered” or, as so many here insist on calling it, “depressed” feelings. Terror does sometimes cause people to do irrational things.

Certainly, clinical depression has a high risk of suicide. That’s probably the most dangerous part of it. How does one escape from the hell inside their own head??

I don’t know why I am even bothering to respond to RebYidd23. Maybe it’s my concern for anyone who could read what he wrote, and use it against themselves.

IF I understood you correctly, you are saying depression is depression, just like cancer is cancer. It’s just a matter of whether or not that particular case is responsive to treatment.

That would be a good analogy, if we didn’t claim to have an array of “tried and true” self-help solutions, and middos improvement programs to treat depression. If the depression doesn’t go away despite those suggestions, would you then say the depression was treatment resistant, or the “patient” was?? Since we have significant sources for those solutions, programs, and self-improvement ideas, it would appear that it is reasonable to expect them to work, at least a little, if the “patient” is trying.

In fact, when it comes to the kind of “depression” that is just a mild, or more intense emotion, those things DO help! Uppers also always work with that: a good joke, or even some ice cream or chocolate gets the most resistant among us to smile, despite ourselves.

Depression(Clinical) doesn’t usually shift much in response to a “good time” The ice cream doesn’t have much of a taste, and the chocolate is kind of flat. The person usually doesn’t find the jokes funny. The exercise is done by rote, with no enthusiasm, effort, or interest. It’s not that the middos program or the exercise isn’t working. IT ISN’T INDICATED.

Treatment resistant Cancer is NEVER considered to be a character flaw of the patient! Actually, it’s a great example though. Because, Loshon Hara is sometimes referred to as a Cancer in our generation, correct? Does that mean that radiation can treat Lashon Hara?! No. Because it isn’t really Cancer literally. It was a metaphor.

Even if there is a continuum, (I don’t know), there is a point where there is a drastic (not gradual) change in symptoms; behaviors, affect, appetite, personal grooming – whatever is affected, is impeded by disinterest. It has become something else. A state in which the patient doesn’t remember how to care. Even if they “try”. It feels empty and meaningless.

For a while, I used to thank HaShem every day for the miracles of life, meaning, satisfaction, will, pleasure…. and emotions – things that I didn’t have while I was (clinically) depressed, and didn’t know that I would ever have again. Boruch HaShem I’ve gotten accustomed to normalcy. I have a range of emotions again, and I’m busy with the vicissitudes of life. I sometimes forget to be thankful.

Which is in itself another miracle.