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I have terrible dental coverage and I unfortunately need a lot of dental attention. I need to either buy some better insurance/augment what I already have, or find a better way of utilizing what I already have. Any suggestions would be appreciated. One procedure is basically using up all my allowance for the YEAR! There must be a way to optimize what I’ve got or to do this better. I’m interested to hear what other people are doing.
Move to a country with socialized Healthcare
Package dental with other coverage that you don’t use. Such as eyecare. It should get you a bigger allowance.
Divide your dental work in batches and do them by year. Sometimes dentists say that a lot is required, but some can “wait”. My, reasonably responsible, paskened one of my teeth a trefah and proscribed an immediate tehiyas hamesim – 10 years ago. I paskened that when a sofek, shev velo taaseh is good enough. He (dentist) is still looking at him (the tooth) every year while thinking about yeshiva tuition he can exchange this tooth for.
I don’t have dental insurance.
I currently need 2 implants
It will cost about $17,000 here in Fairfield County
But, just as there is medical tourism, there is dental tourism. I can. Get them done by excellent dentists in Budapest (where I have had dental work in the past) for about $1,500 add flight and a week’s vacation and am all in at $4300
Already booked for MarchCTL, do you have any familial or other connection with Hungary (other than as a tourist)?
Israel has the same dentistry deal as Budapest
@UJM
Mrs. CTL’s paternal grandmother was born in Budapest. An aunt of mine (by marriage) was also born there. Both made it to CT in 1938.
The first extended visit I made to Budapest 40 years ago
was with my aunt pursuing property claims.Ahh, CTL, we’re lantzman!! You should of told us this years ago!
Ahh, CTL, we’re lantzman!! You should of told us this years ago!
I don’t understand, I thought you were a Ben bayis by ctl, this hasn’t come up in your discussions around the shabbos table? What do you schmooze about?!?
If you look back, I this about 10 years ago it may have been CTL who posted a recipe for Ugarishe fish which started with 2 lbs of granulated sugar. That may have been a hint of family lineage. Conversely, it more likely is my memory loss and incorrect attribution.
Either way, there are some great medical centers and providers in Eastern Eruope (I’m not familiar with Hungary specifically) that offer a high quality of care and for those with funds, an alternative to the over-worked state health care system. My only concern was that with some dental implants, there in interim follow up vists for some cases (especially involving bone grafts around the sinus cavity) where they may have to remove the healing caps etc. I’m sure there are local dentists in Connecticut who can do that work but some oral surgeons may not want to take on another dentist’s work. Otherwise, one the bone growth around the implant has stabilized, any general dentist can fabricate and install the crown
Ctrl Alt Del,
Knowing you need a lot of dental work, it might be a good idea to pursue better dental insurance. Sometimes plans are offered with “high” options that have greater allowances. On the other front, can you discuss your insurance and payment problems openly with the dentist? Perhaps you and s/he can come up with a treatment plan that prioritizes the most critical treatments and waits on less urgent issues? Also, the dentist may offer a payment plan so you can spread the cost out over multiple months.
My advice – don’t wait on any dental issues that are causing pain, or fillings that have fallen out. I put those issues off due to dental phobia and ended up with days of excruciating pain, an extraction and a root canal in a period of less than 2 weeks.
@Coffee Addict it is Joseph’s daughter who has spent so much time in our home.
If it was Mrs. CTL’s grandmother who was born in Budapest it makes my son(s) UJM’s lantzman (same with my first cousins) not me.
My maternal side is German from Bavaria, my paternal side Litvak from the Pale, all arriving in NY through Castle Garden more than 150 years ago.
The biggest feat is that the family extends to the 7th generation born in America and still frum.
@Gadolhadorah
I have never posted a recipe for sweet fish or anything else sweet.
I don’t like chocolate, ice cream or candy, give me the salty, crunchy snacksCT Lawyer: Thanks for the denial and clarification. I too share a genetic predisposition against anything really sweet which perhaps and been a contributing factor to avoidance of serious dental issues until several years ago when we helped assist our dental surgeon put his two yinglach through college.
While its history, the really stupid decision decades ago to exclude virtually all dental expenses from Medicare coverage as been a public health disaster. Same form most employer-provided health insurance plans. There are horrendous stories of seniors suffering greatly from dental-induced health issues. It also has significant mental health issues in terms of social interaction for those that cannot afford out-of-pocket payments which run into the tens of thousand of dollars for what are called “full mouth” replacements. The dental care provide in Medicare supplement plans is really not much more generous than the stand-alone plans most of us purchase through employer or separately for the self-employed.@CTLawyer
Wow! I will actually be in Budapest as well sometime mid-March. Maybe I’ll be zocheh to meet you! (I get the impression that you’re the type to wear a name tag.) Just look out for the guy with a covered birdcage on his shoulder!Most people who can’t afford dental insurance also can’t afford to fly out to Budapest on a whim. Just saying. If you mamesh can’t afford it but are too wealthy to go on MedicAid, then check healthcare.gov to see what plans your state has in place for subsidized insurance.
Visit Israel and have your dental work done there for much much less than in America.
@Yserbius
It is not about affording Dental Insurance, but the fact that most dental insurance is not that good, pays little and has annual caps and exclusions.
Our dentists have told us not to buy the insurance, but bank the amount of the premiums each year to have towards major work when needed.
I have a Medicare Advantage plan. It added some minimal dental coverage last year. I was entitled to two cleanings and one set of Byte Wing Xrays for the calendar year. Not worth much to me.
The Dental addon plans I was offered, would not pay for implants, and had a yearly max payout of $2000, which doesn’t cover a root canal and post without a permanent crown in my area.
My trip for dental tourism is not on a whim, but well researched and thought out. This is not in response to a dental emergency, but something that could be postponed until convenient and affordable.“@Coffee Addict it is Joseph’s daughter who has spent so much time in our home.“
Joe has a daughter? Who would’ve thought……
Reading this topic, I was sure that someone would have brought up the question of why do American’s allow the terrible state of dental care to continue .
All the people commenting have the same experience – Dental Insurance Coverage in America for real dental care (not preventative) is not worth it.
As CTLawyer excellently put it,
the fact that most dental insurance is not that good, pays little and has annual caps and exclusions.
. I would say
All dental insurance
.
Real dental care costs American’s thousands of dollars out of pocket. Jews , Boruch Hashem, have large families and have large Dental needs.
Go to Hungary ? Mexico ? Israel?
Is that what American’s should be doing???Let me put an idea in your heads.
All Americans have teeth. Even with brushing daily – which needs to be done correctly and not a 1 minute throwing of toothpaste on your teeth – those teeth need repair.
The Democrats have been trying for decades to resolve this issue. Starting from Clinton and continuing through Obama. Biden has not gotten to it yet.
Maybe if the Republicans really cared about Americans they would have joined the Democrats in fixing this once and for all.
Instead they call any attempt to fix the system as socialism, communism and worse. They even want to destroy the ACA system that has already helped millions of Americans and roll it back.
The Republicans are the reason America still has a Dental system that is unaffordable and that causes millions of Americans to suffer in pain.Start brushing your teeth with orange juice
Dear Jack,
Your political to the teeth!
Jackk: In fairness, Bernie Sanders made a big push to have dental and vision costs for seniors included in both the budget reconciliation bill and the final iteration of the the poorly named “Inflation Reduction Act” but to stay within the cost limits the Administration had to agree to obtain the needed votes, they were excluded. The costs for adding dental coverage to Medicaid would run into the tens of billions of dollars in a CBO “cost” estimate. They did add dental coverage for certain children under Medicare and did add the insulin price cap for seniors in Part D but not much else.
> political to the teeth!
ROTFL. Indeed, dentistry is the remaining part of medicine that is not fully socialized, and there are still small dental practices where you can go to the dentist you trust.
ACA did not reduce the cost of medicine as far as I know, and so will socialist dentists. It will just force dentists from their practices and transfer costs to the taxpayers – and we will be paying THROUGH THE TEETH.
At the end, this is a free world. America happened to be founded and populated by people who literally ran away from countries with strong governments. Please respect our choice. If you prefer more government control, you can move to Germany, France, Russia, or Canada.
If you take over this country, the rest of us do not have much to go to – and the world will miss out on all future the achievements like the US brought to the world – Hollywood, Windows, Internet, Google, Facebook, NATO, F-35, … as the fortune cookies say “learn Chinese”
GH,
but to stay within the cost limits the Administration had to agree to obtain the needed votes, they were excluded.
As everyone knows the budget is not about costs. Not for Democrats or Republicans. Republicans have zero problem giving wealthy individuals tax breaks which caused the debt to go up 5.9 Trillion dollars. They have no issue sending 800 Billion dollars to the military every year when we are not at war and have not been in a real war for decades.
If Americans would demand from their representatives that the Dental Insurance system be fixed and reverse the need to go to Hungary, then they would. If we have a dental system that is too costly for the average American , then American’s deserve that it be fixed.<blockqoute> The costs for adding dental coverage to Medicaid would run into the tens of billions of dollars in a CBO “cost” estimate.
Tens of billions of dollars is small change overall. And it would benefit Millions of Americans.Jackk: No one disagrees that Dental insurance SHOULD be included but it is a perennial casualty of constantly changing and politically driven priorities for the Administration and congress. There are numerous studies showing that from a cost-benefit perspective, providing free or low cost access to prophylactic dental care from a young age would save 3x to 5x as much in long-term costs for both restorative dental work and multiple medical issues derived from dental problems. Sadly, logic seldom prevails in our increasingly toxic political process.
jackk > wealthy individuals tax breaks which caused the debt to go up 5.9 Trillion dollars.
jackk, we really are able to read propaganda on their original sites if we are interested … If you want to have an ehriche Jewish discussion, please do not refer to not taking someone else’s money as breaks that cause debts. I can tell you more, I am missing out on a lucrative investment right now because jackk did not give me $100K. If you believe in what you say, please figure out my address and wire me a check while bitcoins are so dirt cheap.
> They have no issue sending 800 Billion dollars to the military every year when we are not at war and have not been in a real war for decades.
please refresh your browser, you are reading off 2021 talking points. There is an actual war in Europe going on for almost a year where US military equipment is being used.
Jackk’s basic point is correct. Both parties have added trillions of dollars to the debt based on their own priorities. Billionaires can legally “avoid” paying any taxes because our tax code is so screwed up and their Republican friends keeping adding new avoidance schemes and the Dems just can’t wait to hand out more “free stuff” to their friends. And BOTH parties haven’t found a weapons program to which they could say “no’ given the money spent in their districts.
Gadol,
“rich” people pay most of the taxes, what is the argument that they should pay even more?Even proportional taxation is not so clear from the first principles: yes, rich may get proportional benefits from the government in, say, protecting their property, but in other aspects – say, voting, medical insurances, the benefits are the same for everyone, so “fair” taxation should be proportional or less.
So, after you skip the intentional lie of “free stuff” for poor, then you can see that reducing taxes is supporting your expressed desire to stop extra spending. The argument that probably comes from Goldwater to Reagan is to “starve the beast”: it is difficult to get rid of a specific program because there are specific beneficiaries – people with bad teeth; missile makers; etc – but there are no particular objections from the taxpayers, as each program is “only $10 per person”… So, the creative solution is to reduce collections to make it harder to spend. Results in a debt? well, the alternative would be to collect more taxes and then increase spending to whatever is possible, leading to a similar debt … for example, pre-Obama debt-to-GDP was 86% just slightly higher than France 70+ and Germany 60%. Obama broke through the Reagan’s trick by increasing spending despite the debt making the ratio 138%, France did similarly, but Germany stayed at 75% (cheap Russian gas and exports to China).
There is nothing new here – Gemora calls government “wailing poor” because they always ask for more.
AAQ: Republicans have their own “free stuff” in terms of corporate welfare. Hundreds of billions in crop price supports for mega agricultural corporate giants (only a small fraction goes to “family farmers”), tax incentives and rebates for building football stadiums etc. etc. In many cases the agriculture bill is a symbiotic deal between increasing appropriations for food stamps in return for greater farm subsidies. The budget deals typically “trade” dollar for dollar increases in defense spending for so called “discretionary” spending. Everyone can say yes but non one can (or more correctly is willing) to csy no.
@Ctrl Alt Del
I’m not trying to be rude- just saying it the way that it is.
Insurance companies are in it for the money and they make money by charging premiums to assume the risk for their policy holders.
Given the nature of dental coverage- the premiums would pretty much be unaffordable for those that need expensive dental work if the coverage was more generous.
Dr Pepper,
Do you think that the Republicans and Democrats in congress can come together and figure out a plan with the Insurance companies that will make dental coverage affordable?
Does it make sense that Americans should need to travel to Hungary when they need dental care since they are paying out of pocket even with good dental coverage?Can congress do something to help Americans or is the Insurance lobby too strong ?
The government isn’t the answer; the government is the problem.
As others have noted, dental problems can quickly morph into major medical and social problems such that a relatively small government “investment” underwriting dental health would save many more dollars in “covered” medical expenses (especially for the elderly). There are probably others here in the CR who can speak to the real world issues of older folks who cannot afford the tens of thousands of dollars needed for partial or full mouth implants and “replacement” teeth and forego social interactions, have difficulty with good diet. etc.
I’m Bli Nader going to respond within the next day or two- unfortunately I have less free time during vacation than when I’m working.
In the meantime I’m going to pose a question based on a hypothetical situation.
Family A and Family B are neighbors.
Mr. A is an ambitious person, got a higher education, worked hard to climb the corporate ladder, saved up money to purchase a house and sets aside money every month for his kid’s higher education and weddings. Mr. B on the other hand is more laid back, is still at an entry level position, rents the house he lives in, uses his extra money and credit card limits on vacations that he can’t afford and has no savings.
Mr. A takes his health seriously, eats and works out responsibly, has adequate health insurance coverage, doesn’t smoke and only drinks alcohol for religious purposes. Mr. B is extremely overweight, smokes like a chimney, gets overly drunk on a regular basis and has horrible health insurance coverage.
Unfortunately Mr. B has some serious health issues and needs a lung and liver transplant to survive but can’t afford the $300,000 for the surgery.
Does the government have the right to put a $200,000 lien on Mr. A’s house and seize the $100,000 he has in savings in order to save Mr. B?
Why or why not?
Dr. Pepper, of course – Mr. A shows his lack of bitachon & emunah, and relies on himself too much, leading him to a life of geivah, letzonus, and bitul Toirah. He probably comes home for shabbos only 2 hours in advance.
Hashem sends the govmt shlit’a to re-apportion his wealth earned in aveiros to a worthy recipient whose emunah is strong. So, in one shot, Hashem protects the health of a tzadik and provides a rasha with an opportunity to perform a mitzvo of tzedoka.
PS I once overheard someone who tried to look for a middle ground between Mr. A and Mr. B. So, this Mr. AB almost found a job, but unfortunately the anti-semitic employer refused his request to leave every Friday at 2pm (including during summer) – a time this person required for adequate cooking and showering before shabbos koidesh. Hope, now with WFH, Mr. AB found his niche.
Dr Peper
While on vacation ponder these not-hypothetical situations:
Use your same Family A and B only instead of Family B getting sick
Mr A suffered a heart attack. Ambulance took rushed him to the hospital a stent was placed and he did well beiung discharged 3 days later. Unfortunately the hospital was out of network. His Three day hospital stay now costs him 250,000. (His fault for not chckign with his insurance while having his heart attack, I mena how lazy can he be!?)
Does the government have the right to put a $250,000 lien on Mr. B’s house and seize the $10 he has in savings in order to save Mr. A?
Or
Mr A. gets diagnosed with Colon Cancer. It is operable but needs to be done quickly. His insurance company denies the claim because they looked bakc at hsi application and he wrote no medical condions yet as a child he had asthma (“grew out of it” and wsn;t on meds for years when filled out form)
Does the government have the right to put a $3000,000 lien on Mr. B’s house and seize the $10 he has in savings in order to save Mr. A?
(spoiler alert they didn’t, and by the time he got insurance company to agree to pay the tumor had spread and was no longer operable)We could go on. but the point is , Health problems are more driven by “bad luck” than by how prepared you are (thats not to say living a healthier life style doesnt play a role)
So it has to work both ways if Mr B should help Mr A then the reverse is true.
Now you could argue no in those cases too bad on Mr A. It’s each man for himself. Consistency is keyMr. B doesn’t own how house to have enough equity in there to pay the bills for Mr. A (that’s why I was asking if the government can put a lien on the house owned by Mr. A).
Aside from that- I’m not sure what you’re getting at- my question was if the government can take money from one person to pay the medical bills of another person. (And yes, if it goes one way it should go both ways- but should it go the first way to begin with?)
“my question was if the government can take money from one person to pay the medical bills of another person.”
Yes I got that.
I think the answer is obviously yes. (though not from “one person” rather from society).My point is that you set up the question to bias agaisnt Mr B, as if its all his fault and if only he never smoked and worked out more, he would not have had Lung cancer. while Mr A is a hero. Of course that was an question for you to answer.
The reaility though is not like that. S that is my question to you. Should the government have society step in to help Mr A when is insurance doesnt come through (or force his insurance to come through) ?
To be clear I’m not arguing
I think reasonable people can disagree.
Your examples though are designed to bias and not really to inform.
If you maintain that it isn’t the Government’s job to get involved whether you worked out and saved (Mr A.) or didn’t (Mr. B) I understand that. I disagree (as to most people Even Trump running as a Republican promised to provide “the best healthcare plan” and Medicare is wildly popular )
But again I think people can disagree as to the role of government.so make your case. no need to make it seem as if Mr B “deserves” it. that is entirely irrelevant. If Mr. B did work out , and never smoked and his insurance won’t cover because xyz. STILL not the governments job to provide
@ ubiquitin
It’s not a problem- feel free to disagree with me and show your views from a different angle. If you have some good points and make me change my opinion and outlook I’ll go ahead and agree with you and retract my earlier statements.
My question to @Jackk was supposed to be extremely biased towards Mr. A and extremely biased against Mr. B. (That’s why I mentioned that it was hypothetical.) I’m not sure if you’ve read any of our conversations before but our opinions are diametrically opposed. I was hoping to start a conversation on common ground and then change the variables one at a time to see where we actually disagree.
“I’m not sure if you’ve read any of our conversations before but our opinions are diametrically opposed. I was hoping to start a conversation on common ground”
I did read the conversation but you are approaching the conversation exactly backwards.
THe starting point is a question of role of government. Nitty gritty as to what to do about free loaders who take advantage is important but secondary, since if the goverment has no buisness helping Mr A of course they shouldnt help Mr B. If you think they should help MR A, THEN we can discuss what about Mr B.
The first question ishould be , Is it the role of government to help Mr. A. The model citizen who behaves has his insurance.
I have no interest in trying to change your opinion and outlook. If you think it isnt the govermne’t job, then thats what you think . IT isn’t objectively wrong.
DP,
I have read ubiquitin’s responses and he has clarified the crux of the issue. He has also described every day scenarios where nobody was willfully negligent but still was caught in the death trap of our capitalistic system of healthcare.
To add my 2 cents.
I do not understand how anyone can believe that government is NOT supposed to help the population.
I do not understand how anyone can believe that Selfish Capitalism is the Torah view.Would you be able to simply answer “Yes” or “No” to the question I posed in the hypothetical scenario? You seem to be avoiding it.
I agree that the government is supposed to help the population but who to help, to what extent and at what expense to others is something I strongly disagree with you on.
To respond to your earlier post:
“Do you think that the Republicans and Democrats in congress can come together and figure out a plan with the Insurance companies that will make dental coverage affordable?”
No, I don’t think so. As you mentioned earlier it’ll probably cost in the tens of billions of Dollars to come up with something. The Democrats would want it to come as a new tax to the makers while the Republicans would want it to come from the entitlements given to the takers. (By takers I’m referring to people who are able to get a job but choose not to. I’m SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDING those who can not support themselves due a mental or physical handicap as well as those who are temporarily down on their luck.) Besides- the politicians on either side can’t seem to work with the politicians on the other side.
“Does it make sense that Americans should need to travel to Hungary when they need dental care since they are paying out of pocket even with good dental coverage?”
No, it doesn’t make sense. I think you should go ahead and become a dentist and charge the same amount that Hungarian dentists charge- then you’ll see why the dentists here need to charge so much more. Or better yet- why don’t you open an insurance company that has affordable rates for quality dental care and then you’ll see why it’s not feasible.
“Can congress do something to help Americans or is the Insurance lobby too strong ?”
The math just doesn’t work out. Insurance companies make their money by taking premiums from people and assuming their risk. If the risk is known in advance (or the bulk of the risk is known) the premiums are going to rise to the point that it almost equals the cost of the visits. Many expensive dental procedures don’t have to be done immediately (I.e. getting wisdom teeth pulled or getting braces) and the person can push it off until they get dental insurance and then cancel the policy after the services were provided.
Obesity is also a problem that can morph into major medical and social problems.
By the government forcing every working person to purchase a treadmill for five times the current going price (regardless of whether they already have one, have room for one or if they go to the gym on a daily basis), forcing the treadmill manufacturers to sell them at a loss, requiring the shipping companies to deliver them for less than the cost of shipping and a relatively small government “investment”- the weight loss (from those who use it for its intended purpose and not to walk their dogs while sitting on the couch all day drinking a beer and watching TV) would save many more dollars in “covered” medical expenses.
There are probably others here in the CR who can speak to the real world issues of obese folks who cannot afford the thousands of dollars needed for a treadmill and forego social interactions, have difficulty with good diet. etc.
At a certain point the government needs to take a step back and let work able people stand for themselves. I’m going to stress again that I’m not referring to people who for mental or physical reasons can not take care of themselves as well as those who are down on their luck.
Dr. P; Not sure who or what your were responding to but you make some good points. However, IF you were responding to my narrow point on the cost-effectiveness of existing government Medicare/Medicaid covering routine dental treatment in the same way they cover routine medical expenses, let me try to oversimplify the point.
If the government can spend $100 today to avoid spending several thousand dollars 5 or 10 years in the future (depending on your assumed discount rate), it should do so. Likewise, our private insurance should make the same actuarial calculations, although the cohorts may not be as easily modeled as in the case of Medicare/Medicaid.Dr P > why don’t you open an insurance company that has affordable rates for quality dental care and then you’ll see why it’s not feasible.
why discourage him? I heard from one Rav that he re-sold for some time reliable kosher food without profit in order to raise the community standards, and his prices were lower than less reliable competition. So, someone might want to open a cheaper insurance company and provide good service. Don’t stop people.
Just because we need the government sometimes, does not mean we need it to do everything.
Mr. A got himself a private insurance. In a rare case that you describe, the government can come in and charge all of us for the mishap. This is not an excuse for creating rules such that Mr. B can make a rational choice of freeloading.
I actually need your help guys. I explained these ideas to my kid, and he immediately said – and who will pay for that? I said – some people think that it is not a problem to give people more money. He laughed and asked – little kids? I said – no, adults. So, my kid refuses to believe that there are adults who do not understand that it is ok to give away “free” money. So, if any of you who believe in this, can swing by when you are in my area, so that I can prove to him that such people exist. Thanks in advance.
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